21 February 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.

This is the transcript of Day 8 of the trial.

See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm

                                                                    1071

       1   UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
           SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
       2   ------------------------------x

       3   UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

       4              v.                           S(7) 98 Cr. 1023

       5   USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

       6                  Defendants.

       7   ------------------------------x

       8
                                                   New York, N.Y.
       9                                           February 21, 2001
                                                   9:45 a.m.
      10

      11

      12   Before:

      13                       HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

      14                                           District Judge

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1072

       1                            APPEARANCES

       2   MARY JO WHITE
                United States Attorney for the
       3        Southern District of New York
           BY:  PATRICK FITZGERALD
       4        KENNETH KARAS
                PAUL BUTLER
       5        Assistant United States Attorneys

       6
           ANTHONY L. RICCO
       7   EDWARD D. WILFORD
           CARL J. HERMAN
       8        Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh

       9   FREDRICK H. COHN
           DAVID P. BAUGH
      10        Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali

      11   DAVID STERN
           DAVID RUHNKE
      12        Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

      13
           SAM A. SCHMIDT
      14   JOSHUA DRATEL
           KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
      15        Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1075

       1            (Trial resumed)

       2            (Pages 1073-1074 filed under seal)

       3            (Recess)

       4            (In open court; jury not present)

       5            THE COURT:  I have reviewed the redactions in the

       6   3500 material for Agent Coleman and have found the redactions

       7   to be appropriate.  I had one or two questions which I have

       8   discussed with Mr. Karas and I am satisfied that the

       9   redactions are appropriate.

      10            Anything else before the jury is brought in?  Bring

      11   in the jury.

      12            This is the only case in the history of this

      13   courthouse that starts earlier than scheduled.  The next

      14   witness may take the stand.

      15            MR. KARAS:  Judge, first we are going to do CNN.

      16            THE COURT:  You don't need a witness for that?

      17            MR. KARAS:  No.

      18            MR. COHN:  Does your Honor know anything further

      19   about the juror's funeral plans?

      20            THE COURT:  No, he was going to let the marshal know,

      21   and I have been advised all sorts of things, but not of that.

      22            It gets shown on this?

      23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes.

      24            THE COURT:  Mr. Wilford, I was just wondering about

      25   Thursday a week, whether there is any possibility for it to be

                                                                    1076

       1   scheduled so that someone else could be covering and the trial

       2   could go forward even in your absence.

       3            MR. WILFORD:  I think that would be possible -- yes.

       4            THE COURT:  There are so many reasons to adjourn.  I

       5   regret, for example, because Norman Ostrow was a friend and

       6   worked with me on the Committee on Jury Studies which I made

       7   reference to.  I really want to have a very restricted view on

       8   when we adjourn.  A juror is scheduling his mother's funeral

       9   so as not to interfere with the trial.

      10            (Jury present)

      11            THE COURT:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

      12            JURORS:  Good morning.

      13            THE COURT:  I have been presented with a stipulation.

      14   You recall a stipulation is an agreement among counsel, and

      15   the stipulation which is Government's Exhibit 33, reads:

      16            It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the

      17   United States of America and all counsel:

      18            1.  Government's Exhibit 80 is an authentic copy of a

      19   videotape of an interview conducted by representatives from

      20   CNN with Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan on March 20, 1997.

      21   Portions of the interview aired on CNN on May 10, 1997 and a

      22   transcript of the entire interview later appeared on the CNN

      23   Web site.

      24            2.  Exhibit 80-T is a fair and accurate translation

      25   of the interview that is depicted on Government's Exhibit 80.

                                                                    1077

       1            It is signed by all counsel in the case.

       2            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we would offer

       3   both the stipulation and Government's Exhibits 80 and 80-T,

       4   and propose that we play the video.

       5            THE COURT:  So Exhibit 33, the stipulation, and

       6   Exhibit 80 and 80T are received in evidence.

       7            (Government's Exhibits 33, 80 and 80T received in

       8   evidence)

       9            THE COURT:  You may play the tape.

      10            MR. KARAS:  Thank you, your Honor.

      11            (Videotape played)

      12            THE COURT:  All right, that concludes the playing of

      13   that exhibit.  The government may call its next witness.

      14            MR. KARAS:  Yes, Judge.  The government calls Special

      15   Agent Daniel Coleman.

      16            (Continued on next page)

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1078

       1    DANIEL COLEMAN,

       2        called as a witness by the government,

       3        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

       4   DIRECT EXAMINATION

       5   BY MR. KARAS:

       6   Q   Good morning.

       7   A   Good morning.

       8   Q   Can you tell us how you are employed.

       9   A   I am a special agent with the Federal Bureau of

      10   Investigation.

      11   Q   Is that here in New York City?

      12   A   Yes, it is.

      13   Q   Were you a special agent with the FBI on August 21, 1997?

      14   A   Yes, I was.

      15   Q   Can you tell the jury where you were on August 21, 1997.

      16   A   Nairobi, Kenya.

      17   Q   What reason were you in Nairobi, Kenya?

      18   A   I was there to assist and participate in the search of a

      19   house office in Nairobi.

      20   Q   What was the specific address of that location?

      21   A   1523 Fedha Estates, Nairobi, Kenya.

      22            (Continued on next page)

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1079

       1   Q   And what was your understanding of who was using that

       2   location?

       3   A   It was used by --

       4            MR. DRATEL:  Objection, your Honor, to the form of

       5   the question.

       6            THE COURT:  Excuse me?

       7            MR. DRATEL:  Objection to the form of the question,

       8   using the premises.

       9            THE COURT:  Restate it.

      10   Q   What was your understanding of who was either working out

      11   of that location or living at that location?

      12   A   Wadih El Hage, among others.

      13   Q   Who else was participating in the search?

      14   A   Kenyan government officials.

      15   Q   And did the search take place on that day?

      16   A   Yes, it did.

      17   Q   What time of day did the search begin?

      18   A   Approximately 4:30 in the afternoon.

      19   Q   And when you and Kenya officials went to that location

      20   were there people inside?

      21   A   Yes, there were.

      22   Q   Can you describe the first room of the location at 1523

      23   Feda Estates?

      24   A   The main door to the house is located towards the center

      25   of the house on the porch.  As you walk into the house and you

                                                                    1080

       1   enter a room that is apparently being used as an office.

       2   There is two desks within the room.  There is a desk directly

       3   beyond the door, which is facing sideways, facing out, and

       4   there is a desk to the back facing directly towards the door

       5   towards the back entrance.  The desk is located towards the

       6   back entrance of the room.

       7   Q   Were there any telephones in that room?

       8   A   Yes, there were.

       9   Q   Where were they?

      10   A   The telephone was located on the rear desk in the back of

      11   the room.

      12   Q   Now, Agent Coleman, were any items seized from that first

      13   room that you just described?

      14   A   Yes.  A laptop computer, an Apple laptop computer, some

      15   manuals that go along with the computer, some address books,

      16   some notebooks, date planner --

      17            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, may I approach the witness?

      18            THE COURT:  Yes.

      19   Q   Agent Coleman, I placed before you what has been marked

      20   for identification as Government Exhibit 300 and ask you to

      21   take a look at that.

      22   A   Yes.

      23   Q   Can you tell us what that is?

      24   A   It's a McIntosh Power Book 140.

      25   Q   And is that the computer that was taken from that first

                                                                    1081

       1   room at the location of the search?

       2   A   Yes, it is.

       3   Q   Is it in substantially the same condition as when you

       4   first saw?

       5   A   Yes, it is.

       6            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we offer Government Exhibit

       7   300.

       8            THE COURT:  Received.

       9            (Government's Exhibit 300 received in evidence)

      10            MR. KARAS:  May I approach the witness, your Honor?

      11            THE COURT:  Yes.

      12   Q   Agent Coleman, I placed before you what have been marked

      13   for identification as Government Exhibit 304, 305, 306, 307,

      14   and 309.

      15   A   Yes.

      16   Q   Will you start with 304 and tell us what that is?

      17   A   It's a metal, it's called a phone index.  It pops up based

      18   upon the letter that you go to.

      19   Q   Is that one of the items that was taken from that first

      20   room?

      21   A   Yes, it is.

      22   Q   Is it in substantially the same condition as when you

      23   first saw it?

      24   A   Yes, it is.

      25   Q   With respect to Government Exhibit 305, can you tell us

                                                                    1082

       1   what that is?

       2   A   This is a black planner diary, like a date planner.

       3   Q   And is that also one of the items that was taken from the

       4   first room?

       5   A   Yes, it is.

       6   Q   Is it in substantially the same condition?

       7   A   Yes, it is.

       8   Q   Now, would you tell us what exhibit 306 is, please?

       9   A   306 is a holder for business cards.

      10   Q   What color is it?

      11   A   Black.

      12   Q   And Government Exhibit 307?

      13   A   It's a similar item except it's labeled name card holder

      14   and it's blue.

      15   Q   And 308?

      16   A   Again, it's a similar item but there one is tan in color

      17   green on the inside called a business card file and it

      18   contains business cards.

      19   Q   Do the two previous exhibits contain business cards as

      20   well?

      21   A   Yes, they do.

      22   Q   Finally, can you tell us what Government Exhibit 309 is?

      23   A   309 is a item called a Jambo Diary from 1997 and it's a

      24   daily planner.

      25   Q   Were all of those items seized in that first room at Feda

                                                                    1083

       1   Estates?

       2   A   Yes, they were.

       3   Q   Are they in substantially the same condition as when you

       4   first saw them?

       5   A   Yes, they are.

       6            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we offer Government Exhibits

       7   304 through 309.

       8            THE COURT:  Yes, received.

       9            (Government's Exhibits 304 through 309 received in

      10   evidence)

      11   Q   Agent Coleman --

      12            MR. BAUGH:  Your Honor, 304 through 309, but there

      13   was no mention of 308.  308 is not admitted.

      14            MR. KARAS:  I apologize, that's correct.

      15            THE COURT:  So it's 304, 5, 6, 7 and 9 are received.

      16            MR. KARAS:  Yes.

      17   Q   Agent Coleman, was there any other computer equipment that

      18   was seized during this search?

      19   A   Yes, there was.

      20   Q   Can you tell us where that equipment was found?

      21   A   There is a bedroom in the house located directly adjacent

      22   to the front room.  The other items were located on the top

      23   shelf of a closet within the bedroom directly next to the door

      24   into the bedroom.

      25   Q   Will you tell us what these items were?

                                                                    1084

       1   A   There was assorted equipment that goes along with a

       2   computer.  It includes power cords, two printers, assorted

       3   diskettes, the small size three and a half inch, and a mouse,

       4   a computer mouse.

       5            MR. KARAS:  May I approach the witness?

       6            THE COURT:  Yes.

       7   Q   Agent Coleman, I placed before you what have been marked

       8   for identification as Government Exhibits 301, 302, 303, and

       9   we'll start with those for a minute.  Can you tell us what 301

      10   is?

      11   A   301 is a power card for a McIntosh Power Book.

      12   Q   Can you tell us what 302 is?

      13   A   302 is a Canon bubble jet printer, BJ10SX.

      14   Q   And 303?

      15   A   Is a Kodak Diconix 180SI printer.

      16   Q   And I've also placed before you in the Redwell what have

      17   been marked for identification as Government Exhibits 310-1

      18   through 310-67.

      19            THE COURT:  67?

      20            MR. KARAS:  310-1 through 310-67.  Can you tell us

      21   what those are?

      22   A   Yes, I can.  These are computer diskettes that were taken

      23   from the home in Nairobi.

      24   Q   And with respect to the exhibits you've just described,

      25   are they in substantially the same condition as when they were

                                                                    1085

       1   first found?

       2   A   Yes, they are.

       3            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we would offer

       4   Government Exhibits 301, 302, 303, and 310-1 through 310-67.

       5            THE COURT:  Received.

       6            (Government's Exhibits 301, 302, 303, and 310-1

       7   through 310-67 received in evidence)

       8   Q   Now, Agent Coleman, were there any other objects seized

       9   during this search?

      10   A   Yes.  There were audio cassettes.

      11   Q   Where were those found?

      12   A   They're in a building directly behind the main building

      13   which contained a small apartment and a garage.  The cassettes

      14   were found in the apartment.

      15   Q   Can you tell us how long the search lasted?

      16   A   Approximately an hour.

      17   Q   And after the search was completed where did you and the

      18   Kenya officials go?

      19   A   We went to the police station at the Kenyata International

      20   Airport in Nairobi.

      21   Q   What did you do after you got to the Kenyata International

      22   Airport?

      23   A   I gave the computer to a computer technician for an

      24   examination and I began to make copies of the paper documents

      25   that I had obtained.

                                                                    1086

       1   Q   What do you do with the disks?

       2   A   I also gave the disks to the computer technician.

       3            MR. KARAS:  May I approach the witness?

       4            THE COURT:  Yes.

       5   Q   Now, Agent Coleman, while you were photocopying the paper

       6   documents that were seized from Feda Estates, did anybody hand

       7   you any other documents to photocopy?

       8   A   Another agent gave me a stack of documents.

       9   Q   And did you make a photocopy of those documents?

      10   A   Yes, I did.

      11   Q   I placed before you what has been marked for

      12   identification as Government Exhibits 314 and ask you to take

      13   a look at that.

      14   A   Yes.

      15   Q   Can you tell us what that is?

      16   A   This is the passport, the American passport of Mr. El

      17   Hage.

      18   Q   Is it a photocopy of it?

      19   A   Yes, it is.

      20   Q   Did you make the photocopy of the photocopy of the

      21   passport?

      22   A   I made a copy of a copy.  I did not copy the original.

      23            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer

      24   Government Exhibit 314.

      25            THE COURT:  Received.

                                                                    1087

       1            (Government's Exhibit 314 received in evidence)

       2   Q   Will you turn to Government Exhibit 315 and tell us what

       3   that is?

       4   A   It's a copy of a plane ticket for Mr. El Hage.

       5   Q   And 316?

       6   A   316 is a receipt from a hotel in Karachi, again for Mr. El

       7   Hage.

       8   Q   And 317?

       9   A   Is a copy of a small ring binder notebook.

      10   Q   Did you make all those copies?

      11   A   Again, I made copies of copies.  I did not copy the

      12   originals.

      13            MR. KARAS:  At this time, your Honor, we offer

      14   Government Exhibits 315, 316, and 317.

      15            THE COURT:  Received.

      16            (Government's Exhibits 315, 316 and 317 received in

      17   evidence)

      18   Q   With respect to the computer technician, did you see what

      19   he did with the laptop computer marked as 300?

      20   A   Yes, I did.

      21   Q   What did he do?

      22   A   He worked on it with his equipment, and produced a, what

      23   he called a mirror image of the computer for me.

      24   Q   And what, if anything, did you see him do with the disks?

      25   A   He copied several of the disks on to new diskettes and

                                                                    1088

       1   gave me those copies.

       2   Q   Now, I placed before you what have been marked for

       3   identification as Government Exhibits 310-68 through 310-74.

       4   I ask you to take look at them.

       5   A   Yes.

       6   Q   What are they?

       7   A   These are the computer diskettes he gave me on that day.

       8   Q   Do your initials appear on them?

       9   A   Yes, they did.

      10   Q   Your Honor, at this time we offer Government Exhibits

      11   310-68 through 310-74.

      12            THE COURT:  Received.

      13            (Government's Exhibits 310-68 through 310-74 received

      14   in evidence)

      15            MR. KARAS:  No further questions.

      16            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, perhaps if we could have a

      17   break.

      18            THE COURT:  We'll take our mid-morning break.

      19            (Continued on next page)

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1089

       1            (Jury not present)

       2            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, I would like to note the

       3   issue of the Kenyan warrant with this witness for the purpose

       4   of credibility and for the purpose of potential argument that

       5   we may make that we don't cross-examine the witness on

       6   something that we believe we should be permitted to cross him

       7   on, and it goes to as we argued yesterday.  It goes to

       8   credibility, because this witness saw the Kenyan warrant

       9   before the execution of the search, and it said for stolen

      10   property and we believe that there is no basis for that and

      11   this witness knew that, yet was content to let the Kenyan

      12   agents lie to the Kenyan court.  It has nothing to do with the

      13   legality of the search.  It goes to the credibility and

      14   disposition as to his willingness to let the Kenyan police lie

      15   to the Kenyan court.

      16            MR. KARAS:  Judge, there is no testimony, nor is

      17   there any reason to believe there will be testimony about what

      18   Agent Coleman could say the Kenyan officials told the Kenyan

      19   magistrate.  The fact that he was shown the warrant says

      20   nothing by itself as to what it was that was said to any

      21   Magistrate.

      22            In fact, the 3500 material that's presented, 3504-7

      23   at the second paragraph, Agent Coleman swore an affidavit that

      24   he believed then and he believes now that the Kenyan officials

      25   went to court in Kenyan and obtained the warrant from the

                                                                    1090

       1   Kenyan judge.  That's all he says.  He doesn't say what they

       2   represented to the Judge, and he doesn't say that he has any

       3   reason to believe either that they misrepresented facts to the

       4   Kenyan judge or that the Kenyan warrant was invalid, not to

       5   mention the fact that the validity or the legality of the

       6   Kenyan presence at the search is irrelevant to the

       7   authentication of the exhibits that he just presented or his

       8   credibility in testifying that these exhibits are basically

       9   the ones that were seized that day in the house.

      10            MR. DRATEL:  Judge, I was shown a copy of the warrant

      11   which I assume that the Kenyan officials had obtained.  In

      12   addition, your Honor, what came out is that during the

      13   suppression motion was that in order to get the Kenyan

      14   officials to participate there had to be a Kenyan warrant.

      15            We believe that this agent knew of that in advance.

      16   If he didn't know in advance he just says no, but the point is

      17   did he know about it in advance, and we should be permitted to

      18   argue at the appropriate time that people who performed this

      19   investigation and conducted it were willing to lie to get

      20   evidence including --

      21            THE COURT:  The key phrase in what you've just said

      22   is, at the appropriate time, and the appropriate time would be

      23   some occasion when those issues would be relevant, the

      24   credibility of this witness might be relevant but all of this

      25   has nothing to do with the authentication of these documents.

                                                                    1091

       1   If at some point you wish to call this witness as a defense

       2   witness, because you believe that the matters to which you

       3   referred to are relevant to some issue on the defense, I will

       4   entertain an application at that time, but as I stated

       5   yesterday, I don't see any nexus between the validity of the

       6   Kenyan warrant or the circumstances surrounding the obtaining

       7   of the Kenyan warrant and the testimony of this witness.

       8            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, he testified not only about

       9   the authentication.  He testified about the search, about the

      10   premise.  He also said the Kenyan officials were there.  The

      11   government should not be permitted to limit the scope just by

      12   not asking the question.  They put that in play by putting

      13   that on the record.  There is a distorted context not going to

      14   that.

      15            THE COURT:  As I said, you will have an opportunity

      16   at some appropriate time to recall this witness, and if any of

      17   these matters are relevant to the defendant's case I'll

      18   entertain them, but all that has happened is that this witness

      19   has authenticated these documents.

      20            MR. BAUGH:  Your Honor, if I might, then I would move

      21   to strike the answer and the question:  Who used that

      22   apartment?  Because that's not authentication.  And I was

      23   under the impression counsel was going to handle that on

      24   credibility issue in this conspiracy case.  That witness was

      25   asked who used that apartment, who he said Wadih El Hage among

                                                                    1092

       1   others, and that is not authentication.  I move to strike that

       2   then based on the ruling here.

       3            MR. KARAS:  That's fine, Judge.

       4            THE COURT:  You have no objection to that?

       5            MR. KARAS:  I don't have a problem with that.

       6            THE COURT:  Granted without objection.  I'll so

       7   instruct the jury when they return.  We'll take a five-minute

       8   recess.

       9            (Recess)

      10            (In open court; jury not present)

      11            THE COURT:  All right.  When the jury returns I will

      12   instruct the jury that on motion by the defendants and with

      13   the consent of the government there is stricken from the

      14   testimony of the witness the question of whose premises did he

      15   understand were the subject of the search and his response, El

      16   Hage and others.

      17            Is that acceptable?  Mr. Dratel, you plan to

      18   cross-examine this witness?

      19            MR. DRATEL:  Yes.

      20            THE COURT:  May I inquire as to the scope of your

      21   cross-examination?

      22            MR. DRATEL:  Yes, your Honor.  I intend to ask him

      23   about some of the factors respecting the execution of the

      24   warrant, who was there, who was giving direction to whom in

      25   terms of the --

                                                                    1093

       1            THE COURT:  You know I have great difficulty with

       2   that.  The documents were offered in evidence.  There was no

       3   objection.  I paused, waited.  There was no objection.  They

       4   have been received.  Now you are going to cross-examine him as

       5   to what?

       6            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, he said certain people were

       7   there.  I would like to identify certain of those people who

       8   were there in the house.  That's number one.

       9            Number two is that also with respect to the passport

      10   issue, I think in terms of how that was received, and the

      11   context in which that was received I think is also something

      12   in terms of that they knew Mr. El Hage would not be there.

      13   They knew where he was and they went to meet him if the

      14   airport and while this agent did not specifically get the

      15   passport from Mr. El Hage, he knew exactly why the passport

      16   was taken from Mr. El Hage and where it went.

      17            THE COURT:  Is there an issue as to the authenticity

      18   of the documents?

      19            MR. DRATEL:  No, your Honor, but the point is, we

      20   would like the chain of custody in terms of how the document

      21   was obtained, is something that this witness testified to.

      22            THE COURT:  There is no question as to the

      23   authenticity but there is an issue as to the chain of custody?

      24            MR. DRATEL:  What I'm saying, your Honor, is we just

      25   want to establish how the passport was obtained.  We dispensed

                                                                    1094

       1   with another witness in order to have this witness short cut

       2   this particular process.

       3            THE COURT:  Is that the case?

       4            MR. KARAS:  Judge, I think I can talk to Mr. Dratel.

       5   We may stipulate as to how the passport was obtained.

       6            THE COURT:  Why don't you attempt to do that.

       7            (Pause)

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Judge, to save time there are some

       9   in limine matters regarding the next witness that do not need

      10   to be addressed.  I think we can start the witness and we can

      11   address the in limine matter at the next break so we don't

      12   delay the jury.

      13            (Pause)

      14            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, we have a stipulation with

      15   respect to some of the aspects.  Some of the other aspects

      16   which I spoke to Mr. Karas about the government will not

      17   object to.  There is one area that I would cross him on that

      18   the government does object to, so we might as well deal with

      19   that now.

      20            THE COURT:  What is that?

      21            MR. DRATEL:  With respect to Mr. El Hage was given a

      22   receipt by one of the Kenyan officers for the property.  Agent

      23   Coleman saw that occur.  He acknowledged that.  Following that

      24   Mr. El Hage contacted the government, US government to try to

      25   get those documents back because they were his address books

                                                                    1095

       1   his business cards, everything he had, and he wanted to do

       2   that before leaving Kenya and returning to the United States.

       3            He was led to believe by the government that in fact

       4   the Kenyans perhaps had it, and the US was working with the

       5   Kenyans to tr to get that back to Mr. El Hage, and that during

       6   the period of time Mr. El Hage was in contact with the

       7   government giving them his travel plans which were accurate,

       8   and they met him at the airport in New York, and copied

       9   further documents and then returned them.

      10            THE COURT:  There is obviously a conflict between

      11   striking who occupied the premises and that line of

      12   cross-examination, assuming this witness is knowledgeable.

      13            MR. DRATEL:  If he doesn't know, he doesn't know,

      14   your Honor.

      15            THE COURT:  All right.

      16            MR. KARAS:  Judge, the only issue I have with

      17   Mr. Dratel is getting what happened at JFK Airport upon Mr. El

      18   Hage's arrival there.  I think that goes beyond the scope of

      19   what this witness testified to.

      20            THE COURT:  Bring in the jury and the witness.

      21            (Continued on next page)

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1096

       1            (Jury present; witness resumed)

       2            THE COURT:  Ladies and gentlemen, from time to time I

       3   may order that a certain question or certain answer be

       4   stricken.  In that case you are to understand that to be

       5   disregarded as if the words were never spoken.

       6            On motion of the defendants and with the consent of

       7   the government there is stricken from evidence the question

       8   asked of this witness as to who he understood to be the

       9   occupant of the premises that were searched and the witness'

      10   response to that question.

      11            Cross-examination on behalf of defendant El Hage.

      12            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, one quick item.  We have an

      13   agreement by the parties that Government Exhibit 308 was

      14   mistakenly not included among the exhibits to be offered into

      15   evidence.  This was an exhibit Mr. Coleman testified about.

      16            THE COURT:  You are now offering it and it is

      17   stipulated it may be received.

      18            MR. DRATEL:  Yes, your Honor.

      19            THE COURT:  Very well, 308 received.

      20            (Government's Exhibit 308 received in evidence)

      21            MR. DRATEL:  Thank you cross.

      22   CROSS-EXAMINATION

      23   BY MR. DRATEL:

      24   Q   Good afternoon, Mr. Coleman.

      25   A   Good afternoon.

                                                                    1097

       1   Q   You testified that the search of 1523 Feda Estates

       2   occurred August 21, 1997?

       3   A   Yes.

       4   Q   And the Nairobi bombing occurred August, 1998, is that

       5   correct?

       6   A   Yes.

       7   Q   So the search that you performed was a full year before

       8   the Nairobi bombing, correct?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   And you also said other persons were on the premises at

      11   the time that you searched, correct?

      12   A   Yes.

      13   Q   Mrs. El Hage, Mr. El Hage's wife was there, correct?

      14   A   Yes, she was.

      15   Q   And Mr. El Hage's six children were present as well,

      16   correct?

      17   A   Yes, they were.

      18   Q   And Mr. El Hage's mother-in-law was there as well,

      19   correct?

      20   A   Yes, she was.

      21   Q   You had the Kenyan police with you?

      22   A   Yes, I did.

      23   Q   And, in fact, though there was a United States law

      24   enforcement search, correct?  Withdrawn.

      25            The search was at the behest of the United States

                                                                    1098

       1   correct?

       2            MR. KARAS:  Objection.

       3            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       4   Q   You provided direction to the Kenyan agents during the

       5   search?

       6            MR. KARAS:  Objection.

       7            THE COURT:  No.  I'll allow that.

       8   A   Yes, I did.

       9   Q   You, after the search -- withdrawn.  You left something of

      10   your own at the premises during the search, correct?

      11   A   Yes, I did.

      12   Q   Did you leave the notebook?

      13   A   Yes, I did.

      14   Q   And the following day you met with Mr. El Hage and he

      15   returned the notebook to you?

      16   A   Yes, he did.

      17   Q   And that meeting was at the Grand Regency Hotel in

      18   Nairobi?

      19   A   Yes, it was.

      20   Q   Now, with respect to the documents and the items that you

      21   seized that have been put in evidence during your direct

      22   testimony, you testified that the computer was in

      23   substantially the same condition as when you had seized it,

      24   correct?

      25   A   Yes.

                                                                    1099

       1   Q   You mean externally, correct?

       2   A   I have no ability to judge its internal capacity.

       3   Q   So that would be you don't have anything whether it is

       4   substantially the same internally?

       5   A   I have no way to determine that.

       6   Q   With respect to the business cards, the business card book

       7   you put leads out or traces out on the information in those

       8   business cards?

       9   A   Yes, we did.

      10   Q   Also with respect to the documents and the items that you

      11   testified about on direct, you took the originals and you sent

      12   them to the United States?

      13   A   I didn't send them to the United States.  I left, they

      14   were still in Kenya when I left.

      15   Q   But they were sent to the United States?

      16   A   Yes, they were.

      17   Q   And you received, and you had access to them back in the

      18   United States when you returned?

      19   A   Yes, I did.

      20   Q   For purposes of your investigation?

      21   A   Yes.

      22   Q   That included the original computer itself, correct?

      23   A   Yes, it did.

      24   Q   All that the computer technician did was make a mirror of

      25   the hard drive, correct?

                                                                    1100

       1   A   Yes.

       2   Q   He did not keep any of the actual computer disks?  Those

       3   were sent back?

       4   A   Those were sent back.

       5   Q   During the search, at the conclusion of the search you

       6   witnessed one of the Kenyan officers providing Mr. El Hage's

       7   wife with an inventory of the documents of the items that were

       8   taken, correct?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   And when you spoke to Mr. El Hage the next day he wanted

      11   those back, business cards, address books, things of that

      12   nature?

      13            MR. KARAS:  Objection.

      14            THE COURT:  I'll allow it.

      15   A   Yes, he did.

      16   Q   And he was told in fact that the US government was working

      17   with the Kenyans to try to get that back, correct?

      18            MR. KARAS:  Objection, your Honor, as to was told.

      19            MR. DRATEL:  I'll rephrase it, your Honor.

      20   Q   Did either you or someone else a colleague of yours in the

      21   United States government inform Mr. El Hage that the US

      22   government was working with the Kenyan police to try to get

      23   those items back to him as quickly as possible?

      24   A   I didn't tell him that.  One of my colleagues might have.

      25   Q   You don't know one way or the other?

                                                                    1101

       1   A   I'm not sure.

       2   Q   And were you aware that Mr. El Hage and your colleagues

       3   were discussing Mr. El Hage's travel plans back to the United

       4   States at that time?

       5            MR. KARAS:  Objection.

       6            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       7   Q   It's true, is it not, that the Kenyans never had

       8   possession of any of the items that were seized, that the

       9   United States, that is, you and your colleague had possession

      10   of the items you put in evidence that were seized at the

      11   residence?

      12   A   No.

      13            MR. KARAS:  Objection as to form, your Honor.

      14            THE COURT:  You may answer.

      15   A   No, that's not true.  The Kenyans did have possession.

      16   Q   Well, they took possession, the Kenyans actually seized it

      17   in the premises?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   And then they took it back to a Kenyan police station,

      20   correct?

      21   A   Yes.

      22   Q   Did the Kenyans perform any analysis of the materials?

      23   A   No, they did not.

      24   Q   They turned them other over directly to you, correct?

      25   A   They did, and when I left they remained at the Kenyan

                                                                    1102

       1   police station.

       2   Q   Did you make any copies for the Kenyans?

       3   A   I didn't.

       4   Q   Do you know of anyone who did?

       5   A   I'm not sure.

       6   Q   With respect to --

       7            Yes, your Honor, if may have a moment?

       8            THE COURT:  Yes.

       9            (Pause)

      10   Q   So you don't know that any copies were made for the

      11   Kenyans?

      12   A   No, I don't.

      13            MR. DRATEL:  I have nothing further, your Honor.

      14            THE COURT:  Any further inquiry?

      15            MR. KARAS:  No, your Honor.

      16            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

      17            (Witness excused)

      18            The government may call the next witness.

      19            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, if I may just have one

      20   stipulation that I'll announce between the government and the

      21   defense, that the three items, three additional items that

      22   were not seized at the premises, the passport, plane tickets,

      23   the address book and the hotel receipt that were seized from

      24   Mr. El Hage were seized from Mr. El Hage at Kenyata

      25   International Airport in Nairobi the evening of August 21,

                                                                    1103

       1   1997 and were returned to him.  They were copied by the

       2   government and returned to him.

       3            THE COURT:  Tell me again what three items are?

       4            MR. DRATEL:  The four items, your Honor.  Mr. El

       5   Hage's United States passport, plane ticket and address book,

       6   and the hotel receipt.  I believe they are, 313, 314, 315,

       7   316, 317.

       8            MR. KARAS:  Correct.

       9            THE COURT:  It is stipulated that they were taken

      10   from Mr. El Hage at the Kenyata airport, photographed and

      11   returned to him.  Is that the stipulation?

      12            MR. DRATEL:  Yes, your Honor, that same day, August

      13   21, 1997.

      14            THE COURT:  August 21, 1997.

      15            MR. DRATEL:  They have been admitted already.

      16            THE COURT:  They were already admitted.  Very well.

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, the government would now

      18   call L'Houssaine Kherchtou, and the witness will affirm.

      19    L'HOUSSAINE KHERCHTOU,

      20        called as a witness by the government,

      21        having been duly affirmed, testified as follows:

      22            THE DEPUTY CLERK:

      23   DIRECT EXAMINATION

      24   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

      25   Q   Your full name, sir.

                                                                    1104

       1   A   My name is L'Houssaine Kherchtou you.

       2   Q   Keep your voice up.  It's a big room you have a soft voice

       3   and the air conditioner is running.

       4   A   L apostrophe H-O-U-S-S-A-I-N-E.

       5   Q   Spell your last name next.

       6   A   K-H-E-R-C-H-T-O-U.

       7   Q   Mr. Kherchtou, can you tell the jury where you were born?

       8            MR. SCHMIDT:  Excuse me, your Honor, if I may.  Could

       9   you move the document on top of your Honor's bench.  Otherwise

      10   I can't see.

      11            THE COURT:  What document?

      12   A   I was born in Morocco in May 15, 1964.

      13   Q   You have to keep your voice up a little bit louder, and it

      14   may help if you sit closer to the directional microphone,

      15   point it right at you, and if you see anyone in the courtroom

      16   with their hands to their ear it may be an indication you need

      17   to speak louder.

      18            You may not know that the air conditioner is on that

      19   makes it harder because you have a soft voice.

      20   A   I said I was born in Morocco in May 15, 1964.

      21   Q   Can you tell the jury how far you went to school in

      22   Morocco?

      23   A   Well, at seven years old I went to primary school.  Then

      24   secondary school, and in, when I finished my high school I

      25   went to catering school.

                                                                    1105

       1   Q   And for how long did you go to the catering school after

       2   high school?

       3   A   It was for three years.  In between in second year I went

       4   for three months training in France in the northwest of the

       5   France.

       6   Q   Can you tell us what year you graduated from catering

       7   school?

       8   A   I don't exactly remember, probably 1987.

       9   Q   And what religion were you raised in when you grew up in

      10   Morocco?

      11   A   I am a Muslim Sunni.

      12   Q   A Sunni Muslim?

      13   A   Yes.

      14   Q   Can you tell the jury what languages you spoke growing up

      15   in Morocco?

      16   A   Yeah.  My first language was Berber, because my parents

      17   are Berber, and Arabic and French.

      18   Q   And you say Berber, is that B-E-R-B-E-R, Berber?

      19   A   Yes.

      20   Q   Besides speaking Arabic, Berber and French, did you ever

      21   learn another language later on in life?

      22   A   Yes, I learn English in high school.

      23   Q   And you could testify in English, but if you have a

      24   problem understanding what I say will you use the services of

      25   the interpreter?

                                                                    1106

       1   A   Okay.

       2   Q   Seated to your right.  Did there come a time that you

       3   worked in France after you graduated from catering school?

       4   A   Yes, in 1989 I moved to France, I emigrate to France.

       5   Then I was working for a job there, I found a job in bakeries

       6   and later on in Corsica, in France, too, I work for about six

       7   or seven months.

       8   Q   Did there come a time when you left Corsica and moved to

       9   another country?

      10   A   Yes.  I left Corsica.  I sneaked to Italy.

      11   Q   What do you mean when you say sneaking to Italy?

      12   A   It means I didn't had a visa to go to Italy.  That's why I

      13   just went with other people through the mountains and we were

      14   in Italy.

      15   Q   Once you got into Italy where did you go within Italy?

      16   A   Well, in Italy, at the beginning I visited main cities

      17   from Napoli to Rome.  Then at the end I settled down in

      18   Milano, or Milan.

      19   Q   And did you learn the Italian language?

      20   A   Yes, I did.  It was mandate that way to have a job to

      21   learn the language first.

      22   Q   And did you become familiar with a person by the name of

      23   Anwar Shaban?

      24   A   Yes, Sheik Anwar Shaban was managing the Islamic Cultural

      25   Institute so I used to go there every weekend.

                                                                    1107

       1   Q   And can you tell the jury what city the Islamic Cultural

       2   Institute was located in?

       3   A   It was in Milano.

       4   Q   And did there come a time when you left Italy to go to

       5   another country?

       6   A   Yes.  I think the 23rd of January, January 23rd, 1991 I

       7   left Italy to Pakistan.

       8   Q   And can you tell the jury why it was you in January 1991

       9   that you went from Italy to Pakistan?

      10   A   Why the date or?

      11   Q   No, why did you do that?

      12   A   Well, I went normally to Afghanistan, but they said we

      13   have to go to Pakistan to go to Afghanistan.

      14   Q   Can you tell the jury why you wanted to go to Afghanistan?

      15   A   Well, at that time many people they were coming from all

      16   over the world towards Afghanistan to help Muslims there, and

      17   I was one of them.

      18   Q   When you went from Italy to Afghanistan did you travel

      19   alone or with others?

      20   A   No, I was with other four people.

      21   Q   And do you recall the names of any of the other four

      22   people that traveled with you?

      23   A   I remember a friend called Abu Ahmed el Masri.

      24   Q   So we're clear, do you know a person by the name of Abu

      25   Ubaidah al Banshiri?

                                                                    1108

       1   A   Yes, I know.

       2   Q   The person you traveled with from Italy to Pakistan on a

       3   plane, Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri, is that the same person or a

       4   different person Abu Ubaidah al Rashidi?

       5   A   No, it's a different person.  That person was my age.

       6   He's younger than Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri.

       7   Q   Focus on el Masry who traveled with you, did he have an

       8   occupation?

       9   A   Yes, he was a veterainian or animal doctor.

      10            THE COURT:  What was he?

      11            THE WITNESS:  Veterainian.

      12            THE COURT:  Veterinarian.

      13            THE INTERPRETER:  Veterinarian.

      14   A   Veterinarian, sorry.

      15   Q   If I can ask that Government Exhibit 114 be displayed only

      16   to the witness and counsel.

      17            Do you recognize the person depicted in Government

      18   Exhibit 114 for identification?

      19   A   Yes, that's Abu Mohamed el Masry.

      20   Q   And is that a fair and accurate picture of the person you

      21   knew as Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri the, animal doctor?

      22   A   Yes.

      23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

      24   Exhibit 114 at this time.

      25            THE COURT:  Received.

                                                                    1109

       1            (Government's Exhibit 114 received in evidence.

       2   Q   Now, can you tell the jury how you got a visa to go to

       3   Pakistan when you were in Italy in 1991?

       4   A   Well, we got a visa from Rome, from the Pakistan embassy

       5   through Sheik Anwar Shaban.  He took our passport and he gave

       6   them to Abu Ubaidah, this guy, and he was the one who went to

       7   Rome and took a visa Tabliri people.

       8   Q   You mentioned T-A-B-L-I-R-I.  Can you explain to the

       9   people what Tabliri people are?

      10   A   Well, at that time those who went to Pakistan legally have

      11   to get this visa in order to go to Pakistan.  The easiest way

      12   is to apply for Tabliri.  Tabliri means some Muslims who are

      13   preaching Islam everywhere, and they have an annual meeting in

      14   Pakistan.  That's why when you ask for that visa they just

      15   give you the visa to go to Pakistan.

      16   Q   And was it your intention, did you intend actually to go

      17   there as a Tabliri or some different reason?

      18   A   No, it was thought to go to Afghanistan the reason.

      19   Q   Now, where in Pakistan did you go?

      20   A   Well, we reach Karachi, and we meet the plane going to

      21   Peshawar.  Then we took another plane to Islamabad, and from

      22   Islamabad we took another plane to Bait al Ansar, Peshawar.

      23   Q   And what happened when you arrived in Peshawar?

      24   A   Well, in Peshawar we met a guy called Abu from emirates,

      25   and he the guy who took us to --

                                                                    1110

       1   Q   You said he was from emirates, are you referring to the

       2   United Arab Emirates?

       3   A   Yes.

       4   Q   You said you went to Bait al Ansar.  Can you tell the jury

       5   what happened when you arrived at Bait al Ansar in Peshawar?

       6   A   Well, Bait al Ansar was a guest house in which whenever

       7   you reach Peshawar the first day you have to go there because

       8   you find all the people there.  The first thing you do is you

       9   take all your valuable things like passports, money, whatever

      10   things you have.

      11            Then they give you, they put it in a safe place, they

      12   give you a number, and they let you know many things about

      13   Afghanistan, why you are here, how long you have your time for

      14   training, and which camp you are going to be trained in, and

      15   if you have clothes they let you know that you have to buy

      16   Afghan clothes in Afghanistan, and if you have money you can

      17   buy that in the store.  If you don't have money, they just

      18   provide you with clothes.

      19   Q   And what name did you go by when you were at Bait al Ansar

      20   in Peshawar?

      21   A   I was, I have a nickname Abu Zaid Maghrebi.

      22   Q   First, can you tell the jury what al Maghrebi means?

      23   A   It means the Morrocan, because you find Abu from another

      24   country so Abu Maghrebi.  That's why you have to specify your

      25   country.

                                                                    1111

       1   Q   And you indicated that you were asked how long you

       2   intended to spend in Afghanistan.  What did you tell the

       3   people at Bait al Ansar as to how long you intended to stay in

       4   Afghanistan?

       5   A   My time was open.  That's what I told them I can stay

       6   whatever.

       7   Q   And what happened?  Did you stay in Bait al Ansar?

       8   A   I think we stayed two, three days, just for prepare

       9   ourselves and for other people to come in, and I don't

      10   remember who in Bait al Ansar provide us small van of 15

      11   people.  Then they gave us a date in the morning to go to

      12   another city in Pakistan called Miram Shah.

      13   Q   And how long roughly did it take to go from Peshawar

      14   Pakistan to Miram Shah, Pakistan?

      15   A   I don't remember exactly.  Probably five hours or six

      16   hours.

      17   Q   And what was the method of transportation?

      18   A   It's a minivan.

      19   Q   And what happened when you got to Miram Shah, Pakistan?

      20   A   When you got there is another guest house in Miram Shah,

      21   and we stayed there a few hours waiting for the car to come

      22   from the camp that we choose.

      23   Q   What was the name of the camp that you chose?

      24   A   I choose al Farouq camp.

      25   Q   Did you go to the Al Farouq camp?

                                                                    1112

       1   A   Yes, I did.

       2   Q   And how long, how long a drive was this from the Miram

       3   Shah place to guest house to the Farouq camp?

       4   A   It wasn't that far, but because of the road wasn't good it

       5   took I think one hour or roughly one hour and one hour and a

       6   half.

       7   Q   And do you know the name of the biggest city that is near

       8   the Farouq camp in Afghanistan?

       9   A   The city Khost the big city.

      10   Q   And can you tell the jury what happened the first night

      11   you arrived in Farouq camp in Afghanistan?

      12   A   We arrived there around 6 o'clock in the afternoon, and

      13   normally they gave us a place where to stay, a tent or room or

      14   something, but I didn't find a place for me.

      15            Then they told me to spend the night in the mosque

      16   with other people, and during the night there was a shooting

      17   and big fire everywhere, and it was around 1 o'clock.  Then we

      18   came out from the mosque and all people were in the meeting

      19   there.  It's a matter of welcoming us to the camp.

      20   Q   The shooting was not an attack by other people.  That was

      21   a welcome to the camp?

      22   A   Yeah, it was a welcome to the camp.  Just they want us to

      23   know that the next life was so hard that's why you have to be

      24   prepared.  Don't think that you are coming to sleep in the

      25   camp.

                                                                    1113

       1   Q   And how long did you spend at the Farouq camp?

       2   A   The normal time two months.

       3   Q   Can you tell us what you did during the two months at the

       4   Farouq camp?

       5   A   Well, we were trained for how to use the arms, and mines

       6   explosives and antiaircraft weapons.

       7   Q   Can you tell us what type of light weapons you were

       8   trained in?

       9   A   Well, in Farouq camp normally it's a camp divided in three

      10   parts.  The first part, the first part is about --

      11            MR. WILFORD:  I'm going to object to the witness

      12   saying "normally."  That's what he learned at that particular

      13   time.

      14            THE COURT:  All right.  Just answer the question.

      15   Q   Can you just tell us about the time that you went through

      16   as a person being trained in Farouq camp how it worked?

      17   A   Well, when I went there we spent in the first part almost

      18   a month and we trained in that first part we trained on the

      19   light weapons, like AK-47, M-16, BK, and some pistol and some

      20   other light weapons like Uzi and others.

      21   Q   Did there come a time when you used weapons other than the

      22   light weapons such as the rifle the Uzi you talked about?

      23   A   Yeah.  We spent a month there in that place.  Then after

      24   that we moved to another, the second place, called al Hulia,

      25   in which we learned how to use explosives different type of

                                                                    1114

       1   explosives, and mines.

       2   Q   You mentioned H-U-L-I-A.  Was this in a different camp or

       3   was this a different part of the Farouq camp?

       4   A   No, it's inside the camp but the camp the training session

       5   is divided in three parts.  The first part in which we spent a

       6   month, the second part it called al Hulia.

       7   Q   Can you tell us what type of explosives you trained in al

       8   Hulia?

       9   A   It was a briefing with different types of explosive like

      10   C3, C4, dynamite, and I don't remember.

      11   Q   Did you have any training in detonators?

      12   A   Yes.  They had two type of detonator, electric ones and

      13   explosive ones.

      14   Q   You mentioned mines.  What type of mines were you trained

      15   in?

      16   A   Many different types of mines.  Personal mines and

      17   antitank mines, and antitruck mines, yes, and the butterfly

      18   mines, other green one.

      19   Q   And for how long did you spend in that part of the camp

      20   where you trained in explosives and mines?

      21   A   Almost 15 days.

      22   Q   And where did you go next?

      23   A   Then you get, you go next to the third part, it's the

      24   mountain.  It's because it's a small hill in the same camp

      25   called the mountain.

                                                                    1115

       1   Q   And what were you trained in at the mountain?

       2   A   We were trained about antiaircraft weapons like Zukiak I

       3   think Albia 7 was actually --

       4   Q   You mentioned Zukiak.  What's a Zukiak?

       5   A   It's an antiaircraft weapon.

       6            THE INTERPRETER:  It's a weapon that has two ends to

       7   it.

       8   Q   It's an antiaircraft weapon?

       9   A   Bullets come out of the that.  The bullets come out and we

      10   normally used against aircraft.

      11   Q   Did you receive any training in grenades at any time

      12   during your two months in the Farouq camp?

      13   A   Yes, I think grenade we took with explosives.

      14   Q   Did you do any physical exercise during the two months

      15   that you were in Farouq camp?

      16   A   Well, in Farouq camp you have exercise that you have to do

      17   that we used to do every morning after the first prayer, just

      18   we prepare ourselves and we go for exercising for one hour and

      19   one hour and a half, sometimes two hours.

      20   Q   And how did your physical appearance change after the two

      21   months in Farouq camp?

      22   A   Well, after the end of training everybody physical change.

      23   Myself I lost a lot of weight.

      24   Q   Do you know approximately how much weight you lost?

      25   A   Approximately twenty kilograms, 25, I don't remember

                                                                    1116

       1   exactly.

       2   Q   Forty or fifty pounds?

       3   A   Yeah, it was in kilograms is there.

       4   Q   And during the time that you were being trained in the

       5   Farouq camp, yes or no, did you know whether or not you were

       6   being observed as to your ability at that time?

       7   A   No.

       8   Q   Did you later become a trainer at the camp?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   And when you were trainer at the camp did you observe the

      11   students at that training camp?

      12   A   When I was a trainer we don't observe people, but they

      13   knew that we did that in Farouq camp.

      14   Q   Now, you mentioned before that when you were at Peshawar

      15   you went by the name Abu aid al Maghrebi.  What name did you

      16   go by in the Farouq camp?

      17   A   Yes, I change the name to Abu Talal.

      18   Q   Can you tell the jury why it was that you changed your

      19   name when you went by Abu Talal?

      20   A   There is another Abu Maghrebi inside the camp.  He came

      21   before me.  That's why they don't want to be confused, they

      22   told me to change the name because I came after him.

      23   Q   And are you familiar with the term emir?

      24   A   Yeah, I'm familiar with.

      25   Q   What does emir mean?

                                                                    1117

       1   A   It means responsible or the manager of the camp.

       2   Q   Who was the emir of Farouq camp at the time that you were

       3   there?

       4   A   A guy called by Shuaib.

       5   Q   What happened after you finished your training at the

       6   Farouq camp?

       7   A   So we left the camp and from Miram Shah we have to go to

       8   Peshawar.

       9   Q   When you were at the Miram Shah during the stop on your

      10   way to Peshawar, did anyone approach you to discuss any topic

      11   with you?

      12   A   Well, at the Miram Shah guest house this was outside Miram

      13   Shah guest house, the emir of Farouq camp called me and to

      14   same Abu el Masry who was friend with me and other two people

      15   and they told us that if we like to join al Qaeda works for

      16   Islamic.

      17   Q   Now, the person who approached you, Shuaib, was the person

      18   who was in charge of the camp?

      19   A   Yes.

      20   Q   And were the other people that were approached was Abu

      21   Ubaidah, the veterinarian?

      22   A   Yes.

      23   Q   And did he ask you for a decision that day whether or not

      24   you would join al Qaeda?

      25   A   No.  He just let us know and he told us if you need more

                                                                    1118

       1   details about al Qaeda and how to join it in Peshawar you will

       2   learn a lot of things there.

       3   Q   And did you go?

       4   A   Yes, we went to Peshawar.

       5   Q   And where in Peshawar did you go?

       6   A   I went to where my clothes and my stuff are.

       7   Q   Did you go to any place else after you picked up your

       8   clothes at Bait al Ansar?

       9   A   Yes.  When he told us that about joining al Qaeda it's

      10   like we agreed, but we didn't have the final decision.  When

      11   we went to Bait al Ansar a guy call, come from, came from Bait

      12   al Salaam and he took us and our luggage.

      13   Q   The second place is Bait al Salaam?

      14   A   Yes.

      15   Q   Does Bait mean house?

      16   A   Bait means house, yes.

      17   Q   And what happened when you got to Bait al Salaam?

      18   A   Well, we did the same thing at Bait al Salaam.  He gave us

      19   again our valuable things passport and money to a person there

      20   and he gave us a number take in the safe.

      21   Q   Did you discuss al Qaeda with any of the people at the

      22   place called Bait al Salaam?

      23   A   Bait al Salaam is al Qaeda guest house.  Everybody is

      24   there from al Qaeda, everybody is talking about al Qaeda

      25   there.  We ask many people.

                                                                    1119

       1   Q   And did you make the final decision to join al Qaeda or

       2   not while you were at Bait al Salaam?

       3   A   Yes, we made the decision to join them there.

       4   Q   And did you actually join al Qaeda in Bait al Salaam?

       5   A   No.

       6   Q   Tell the jury how you went about joining al Qaeda?

       7   A   So from Bait al Salaam we decided to go to the front to

       8   the Khost front, and in Bait al Salaam told us to go to Miram

       9   Shah and we meet somebody there to make a bayat or to join al

      10   Qaeda.

      11   Q   And did you go to Miram Shah?

      12   A   Yes, we went to Miram Shah.

      13   Q   You said "we."  Who was with you that you recall?

      14   A   From Bait al Salaam we were many people that went there,

      15   they were going to the front.  But when I say "we," it was Abu

      16   Ubaidah.

      17   Q   If you call the animal doctor make it easier?

      18   A   Okay.

      19   Q   Can you tell us approximately what year and what time of

      20   year if you remember that you and Abu Ubaidah, the animal

      21   doctor, went to Miram Shah?

      22   A   Probably April.  April 1991.

      23   Q   And can you tell us what happened when the two of you got

      24   to Miram Shah?

      25   A   So we arrived to Miram Shah guest house we met a guy

                                                                    1120

       1   called a Abu Ahmed al Harbi.  We met him there and he took us

       2   to his room, and he was, he explained many things about

       3   joining al Qaeda, and he gave us a paper in which written in

       4   Arabic.  It's like a swear to join al Qaeda.

       5   Q   Can you tell us as best you recall what Abu Ahmed al Harbi

       6   told you about al Qaeda during that meeting?

       7   A   Well, he told us that al Qaeda is a group of Muslims were

       8   join to fight for Islam, and to do the good things for Islam

       9   and Muslims all over the world.

      10   Q   Did he tell you who formed al Qaeda?

      11   A   What?

      12   Q   Did he tell at that time who had formed the group al

      13   Qaeda?

      14   A   Yeah, he said that the emir.

      15   Q   Explain what that means or tell the interpreter what that

      16   means?

      17   A   Well, is Islamic word for the manager but it's religious,

      18   more religious than.  That why I mean you have obey that man

      19   and you have to follow his orders as far as they are to

      20   benefit Islam and as far as they are not against something

      21   Islam.

      22   Q   Did you actually make a bayat at Miram Shah that day?

      23   A   Yes, I made the bayat by reading that paper and swearing

      24   in front of and signing the paper.

      25   Q   And did you come to learn what structure of the al Qaeda,

                                                                    1121

       1   who was the boss and who worked under him?

       2   A   Well, at that time I didn't know many people in al Qaeda

       3   but I only knew that Usama Bin Laden is the emir, and Abu

       4   Banshiri is number two, and Abu Hafs is the third one.

       5   Q   And can you tell us what name you new Usama Bin Laden by

       6   besides his true name?

       7   A   Well, he's known by Abu Abdullah, Shaykh Abdulla or

       8   sometimes Sheik Usama.

       9   Q   And what names was Abu Ubaidah known by to you, not just

      10   in 1991, but taking us forward?

      11   A   Sheik Abu Banshiri or Karim or Jalal.

      12   Q   You mentioned Karim, K-A-R-I-M.  And where was it that you

      13   knew Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri by the name?

      14   A   It was in Kenya, Nairobi.

      15   Q   And you mentioned the name Jalal.  Where was it that knew

      16   Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri by the name of Jalal?

      17   A   It was in Kenya.

      18   Q   If I could display to the witness what's been previously

      19   received in evidence as Government Exhibit 100.  Do you

      20   recognize the person depicted in Government Exhibit 100?

      21   A   Yeah, that's Sheik Abdullah.

      22   Q   And can you display 101.  Do you recognize that person?

      23   A   Yeah, that's Sheik Abu Hafs.

      24   Q   And who is Sheik Abu Hafs?

      25   A   He's number three of al Qaeda and he is responsible for

                                                                    1122

       1   wing, military wing of al Qaeda.

       2   Q   Did you know Sheik Abu Hafs by any other name?

       3   A   Sometimes they call him Khaeik Abu Fatim.

       4   Q   Will you display to the witness Government Exhibit 103?

       5   Do you recognize the person in Government Exhibit 103?

       6   A   That's Sheik Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri.

       7   Q   And you mentioned that he was known as Jalal and Karim.

       8   Did you ever learn his true name?

       9   A   Yes, I learned his true name after his death from the

      10   newspapers.

      11   Q   Only from the newspaper?

      12   A   Yes.

      13   Q   Now, returning to al Qaeda structure, did you come to

      14   learn whether that al Qaeda had any committees?

      15   A   Excuse me?

      16   Q   You mentioned before that Abu Hafs was in charge of the

      17   military wing of al Qaeda?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   How many different groups or committees or wings were

      20   there under al Qaeda as you recall?

      21   A   Well, there is a military committee.  There is economy

      22   committee.  And there is and the military committee, and

      23   another committee I have to use the translator.

      24            THE COURT:  Are you saying economic?

      25            THE WITNESS:  Economic, yes.

                                                                    1123

       1            THE INTERPRETER:  It's the legal, the legal

       2   committee.  It's the legal committee which is responsible for

       3   teaching religion, and anything legal to do with religion.

       4            THE COURT:  The record should show that the witness

       5   is from time to time using the services of the translator.

       6            Could you state your name again for the record,

       7   please?

       8            THE INTERPRETER:  My name is Seham Laraby.

       9   Q   Now, sir, directing your attention back to the military

      10   committee, can you tell us who you understood to be in charge

      11   of the work for the management of the military committee at

      12   various times?

      13   A   Well, Abu Hafs was the head of this military wing, but

      14   there are some other guys who are were responsible, too, but

      15   they are under supervision of Abu Hafs, like Abu el Masry.

      16   Q   You mentioned Abu el Masry.  Anyone else?

      17   A   Saif al Adel.

      18   Q   You mentioned Abu Islam.  How many Abu Islams did you know

      19   in al Qaeda?

      20   A   There are two Abu Islams.

      21   Q   Are they known by different names?

      22   A   The old one called Abu Islam Masry, or Islam, and the

      23   youngest one called Abu Islam Masry, too, or Shuait.

      24   Q   Let's go through that.  The older one Abu Islam el Masry

      25   is also known as Sheik Islam, the younger Abu Islam Masry is

                                                                    1124

       1   also known as Shuait?

       2   A   Yes.

       3   Q   Now, if I could display to the witness Government Exhibit

       4   for identification 102, and only to the witness and counsel

       5   for the moment.

       6            Do you recognize the person depicted in Government

       7   Exhibit 102?

       8   A   Yes, this is Sheik Alati.

       9   Q   Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the person you

      10   knew as Sheik Alati?

      11   A   Yes.

      12            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

      13   Exhibit 102.

      14            THE COURT:  Received.

      15            (Government's Exhibit 102 received in evidence)

      16   Q   Display for the witness and counsel only Government

      17   Exhibit 104 for identification.  It may be in evidence.

      18            Do you recognize the person depicted in Government

      19   Exhibit 104?

      20   A   Yes, this is Abu islam al Khabir, the older Islam.

      21   Q   You mentioned Khabir.  That's the person, the older Islam?

      22   A   Yes, the older.

      23   Q   Your Honor, I believe 104 is already in evidence so I

      24   believe we can display it to the jury.  Is this the Abu Islam

      25   who is in the military committee?

                                                                    1125

       1   A   Yes.

       2   Q   And if we can display to the witness for identification

       3   purposes only Government Exhibit 119.  Do you recognize the

       4   person depicted in Government Exhibit 119?

       5   A   Yes.  Abu Mohamed el Masry.

       6   Q   And Abu Mohammed el Masry was he known by any other name?

       7   A   Saleh.

       8   Q   S-A-L-E-H?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   And do you know if this person was married?

      11   A   Yes, he is.

      12   Q   And do you know who his wife was?

      13   A   He, she is the daughter of Faraj Abu El Masry.

      14   Q   Faraj El Masry, M-A-S-R-Y?

      15   A   Yes.

      16   Q   The person in 119 would be the son-in-law of Sheik Abu

      17   Faraj el Masry?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   Government Exhibit 119 a fair and accurate depiction of

      20   the person you knew as Saleh or Abu Mohamed el Masry?

      21   A   Yes.

      22            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

      23   Exhibit 119.

      24            THE COURT:  Received.

      25            (Government's Exhibit 119 received in evidence)

                                                                    1126

       1   Q   Do you know if this person depicted in Government Exhibit

       2   119 had any children?

       3   A   Yes, he had.

       4   Q   Do you recall how many children he had, boys or girls?

       5   A   Well, he had three daughters.

       6   Q   Do you remember the names of any of his daughters?

       7   A   I remember the oldest one, Marium.

       8   Q   M-A-R-I-U-M.

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   And was this the same Abu Mohammed el Masry who was in the

      11   military committee of al Qaeda?

      12   A   Yes, he is the same.

      13   Q   And besides being involved in al Qaeda, did he have any

      14   outside of?

      15   A   Well, before he joined he had told me that he was a soccer

      16   player in Egypt and he was playing in a professional team in

      17   Egypt.

      18   Q   Do you remember the name of the professional team he

      19   played for?

      20   A   I'm not quite sure, but probably Mahala.

      21   Q   Is that a professional team?

      22   A   Yes, I think it was in the first league.

      23   Q   Now, you mentioned an economic committee for al Qaeda.

      24   Who did you understand to be involved with the economic

      25   committee for al Qaeda in a leadership role?

                                                                    1127

       1   A   Well, there is Sheik Sayyid el Masry.

       2   Q   And you mentioned a committee involved with law, legal

       3   committee.  Who did you understand to be involved with the

       4   legal committee for al Qaeda?

       5   A   Sheik Sayyid, too, the same Sheik and Abu Hafs Mauricni.

       6   Q   Anyone else that you recall?

       7   A   I don't remember the names.

       8   Q   Did al Qaeda have any committee that had to do with the

       9   media?

      10   A   Yes, they had.  In Peshawar where we were there they have

      11   the committee dealing with the media.

      12   Q   And who was in charge of dealing with the media in

      13   Peshawar?

      14   A   Well, they have a house in which the media, they issue

      15   leaflets, some leaflets every week.  Abu Surir was working

      16   with them.

      17   Q   Al Qaeda have any organization that dealt with the media?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   Do you know who is in charge of that?

      20   A   Well, Abu Mohamed el Masry.

      21   Q   When you say Abu Mohamed el Masry can you refer to the

      22   person also known as Saleh?

      23   A   Yes.

      24   Q   And who is Haru?

      25   A   He is from --

                                                                    1128

       1   Q   Spell the name of the island if you know how to spell it?

       2   A   C-O-M-O-R, I don't know.

       3   Q   And do you know where that island is located?

       4   A   I think it's near Madagascar I think in the south of

       5   Madagascar or in the north, I'm not quite sure.

       6   Q   And if I can show the witness Government Exhibit 110 for

       7   identification.  Do you recognize the person depicted in

       8   Government Exhibit 110?

       9   A   Yes, this is Haru al Qamar.

      10   Q   And is that a fair and accurate picture of the person you

      11   knew as Haru al Qamar?

      12   A   Yes.  Q AMA R.  Your Honor, I would offer Government

      13   Exhibit 110 in evidence.

      14            THE COURT:  Received.

      15            (Government's Exhibit 110 received in evidence)

      16            (Continued on next page)

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1129

       1   Q   You mentioned after you made bayat to al Qaeda in Mairam

       2   Shah guesthouse, that you had been on your way to the front.

       3   Did you actually go to the front?

       4   A   Yes, I went to the front, yes.

       5   Q   Where was the front?

       6   A   It was in a place called Badaloon.  It's near Khosh.

       7   Q   Did you fight on the front line or behind the front line?

       8   A   No, I was in the behind, because there are some other

       9   people who are there many days before me that have to go to

      10   the front.

      11   Q   How much time did you spend at the front?

      12   A   I don't remember exactly, probably two months.

      13   Q   Just so we are clear, who were you fighting at the time?

      14   A   Well, the communist government of Afghanistan at that

      15   time, and they were in Khost.

      16   Q   After your two months at the front, what did you do next?

      17   A   I went back to Peshawar.

      18   Q   Did you eventually return to the camps?

      19   A   Yes, I returned after -- I am not quite sure.  I went to

      20   another front in other city called Jalalabad.

      21   Q   Do you recall how long you spent at the front in

      22   Jalalabad?

      23   A   Probably 15 days.  I am not quite sure.

      24   Q   Did there come a time when you eventually returned to the

      25   training camps?

                                                                    1130

       1   A   Yes.

       2   Q   Can you tell us approximately when that was?

       3            THE COURT:  What year are we talking about?

       4   A   Probably the end of '91, '92.

       5            MR. FITZGERALD:  If I can display to the witness what

       6   has been marked Government's Exhibit for identification 250.

       7   I ask if you recognize what that is?

       8   A   This is a map of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

       9   Q   Does that appear to you from your experience of Pakistan

      10   and Afghanistan to be a fair and accurate map of that region?

      11   A   Yes.

      12            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer

      13   Government's Exhibit 250 for identification into evidence.

      14            THE COURT:  Yes, received.

      15            (Government's Exhibit 250 received in evidence)

      16   Q   Do you see Peshawar in the map?

      17   A   Yes.

      18   Q   Is that in the grayish brownish area to the right?

      19   A   Excuse me.

      20   Q   Is it on the right side of the screen, the darkened area?

      21   A   Yes.

      22   Q   Does it have an airplane there signifying an airport?

      23   A   Yes.

      24   Q   Can you tell us generally, even if not marked on the map,

      25   where the Miram Shah area of Pakistan is.

                                                                    1131

       1   A   I don't see it here.

       2   Q   Can you find Khost?  Is Khost in Afghanistan or Pakistan?

       3   A   No, Khost is Afghanistan.

       4   Q   So that would be in the white area.

       5   A   I see Jalalabad here, but Khost --

       6   Q   Is Khost near the Afghani border?

       7   A   Yes, it is near the Pakistani border.

       8   Q   Do you know what state it is in?

       9   A   It's, I think -- no, I didn't see it.

      10   Q   Do you know the name of the state it is in, without

      11   looking?

      12   A   Excuse me.

      13   Q   Do you know the name of the Afghani state that Khost is

      14   in?

      15   A   No, I don't remember.

      16   Q   Why don't we come back to the map when we are a little

      17   better organized.

      18            Where were the Farouq camps?  How many camps were

      19   there in the Farouq area or Khost area?

      20   A   There were about three or four camps.

      21   Q   Do you recall the names of the three or four camps?

      22   A   There is a Farouq camp, and Abu Bakr Sadeek camp and Jihad

      23   War camp, and Khalid Ibn Walid.

      24   Q   Which camp did you go to after you finished at the front

      25   and Jalalabad?

                                                                    1132

       1   A   They sent me to Abu Bakr Sadeek camp.

       2   Q   What did you do at the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp?

       3   A   I went there, supposed to be a trainer.

       4   Q   Did you actually serve as a trainer?

       5   A   Yes.

       6   Q   What did you train people in?

       7   A   I was training people for the same thing I learned in

       8   Farouq camp but it was different because the people coming to

       9   Sadeek camp don't have a lot of time to spend in Afghanistan.

      10   They have a week or two weeks or three weeks, they have a very

      11   short time.  That's why we teach them things very briefly,

      12   light weapons, explosives, some grenades, pistolettes.

      13   Q   Is a pistolette a small pistol?

      14   A   Yes, there are only two pistolettes there, Malakov and

      15   Valakov.

      16   Q   Was there an emir of the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp when you

      17   were training there?

      18   A   Yes, there was.

      19   Q   Who was the emir of the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp?

      20   A   Guy calls Abu Omar al Sebai.

      21   Q   Did you ever come to know Abu Omar al Sebai by another

      22   name?

      23   A   Yes.

      24   Q   What was the other name or names that you knew him by?

      25   A   Hamad, or Khalid al Fawwaz.

                                                                    1133

       1   Q   Do you know what his true legal name?

       2   A   Khalid Fawwaz was his true name.

       3   Q   Where did you know him by the name Hamad?

       4   A   That was in Kenya.

       5   Q   Let me show you what is premarked Government's Exhibit 109

       6   for identification, previously shown to counsel.  Do you

       7   recognize the person depicted in Government's Exhibit 109?

       8   A   Yes.

       9   Q   Who is that?

      10   A   Khalid Fawwaz.

      11   Q   Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the person you

      12   knew as Khalid Fawwaz?

      13   A   Yes.

      14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer

      15   Government's Exhibit 109.

      16            THE COURT:  Received.

      17            (Government's Exhibit 109 received in evidence)

      18   Q   Sir, how long did you spend serving as a trainer at the

      19   camp Abu Bakr al Sadeek?

      20   A   I don't remember, probably a year.

      21   Q   Did you train only at that camp or did you train at any of

      22   the neighboring camps at Khost?

      23   A   I was a trainer at Sadeek camp but sometimes we go to

      24   Jihad Wal camp for training.  I took explosive training in

      25   Jihad Wal camp.

                                                                    1134

       1   Q   How long was the explosives training course you took at

       2   Jihad Wal camp?

       3   A   Fifteen days.

       4   Q   Do you recall who taught that class?

       5   A   We are many students, but the instructor was Muntasser al

       6   Jaziri.

       7   Q   Did you see any of the other people who were trainers at

       8   the Jihad Wal camp, or the managers?

       9   A   At that time Abu Islam el Masry, who was the emir of Jihad

      10   Wal.

      11   Q   You testified earlier there were two people in al Qaeda

      12   known as Abu Islam el Masry.  Which of the two was the emir of

      13   the Jihad Wal camp?

      14   A   Older one.

      15   Q   Do you recall any of the other people who were trainers,

      16   not students, at the Jihad Wal camp?

      17   A   Jihad Wal camp wasn't normally for training, it was like a

      18   headquarters of the other camps.  That's why you find people

      19   there, whether they are trainers or they are not on duty, like

      20   Saif al Ader was there.

      21   Q   During the time that you were a trainer at Abu Bakr Sadeek

      22   camp, do you know what the person Abu Ubaidah, the animal

      23   doctor, was doing?

      24   A   Yes.  We were assigned both of us as trainers, but he went

      25   to el Farouq camp and I went to el Sadeek camp.

                                                                    1135

       1   Q   While you were teaching weapons in Sadeek camp, do you

       2   know what Abu Ubaidah the animal doctor was teaching at the

       3   Farouq camp?

       4   A   He was teaching explosives in the Farouq camp.

       5   Q   During the time that you were in the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp

       6   as a trainer, did you come to know a person by the name of

       7   Marwan?

       8   A   Yes.

       9   Q   Was the person Marwan known by any other name?

      10   A   Yes, Abu Moath.

      11   Q   Marwan was also known as Abu Moath, correct?

      12   A   Yes.

      13   Q   And you were unsure whether it is al Philistini or Urdani,

      14   is that correct?

      15   A   Yes.

      16   Q   What does al Philistini mean?

      17   A   It means the Palestinian.

      18   Q   What does Urdani mean?

      19   A   Jordanian.

      20   Q   Do you know what the nationality of this person known as

      21   Abu Moath was?

      22   A   Either one of them, because I think 70 percent of

      23   Palestinians are living in Jordan.

      24   Q   Besides knowing Marwan from the camps in Abu Bakr Sadeek,

      25   did you see him in later years?

                                                                    1136

       1   A   Yes, I saw him at Kenya.

       2   Q   I ask you to look around the courtroom today and ask you

       3   to tell us if you recognize the person known as Marwan or Abu

       4   Moath?

       5   A   Yes, I know.

       6   Q   Can you tell us where the person is seated?

       7   A   In front of.

       8   Q   If you describe where I am, where is he seated in relation

       9   to me?

      10   A   Number 4 on your right side.

      11   Q   Can you describe what he is wearing?

      12            MR. WILFORD:  Your Honor, we concede identification.

      13            THE COURT:  The identification of the defendant Odeh

      14   is conceded.

      15   Q   What did you understand that Marwan was doing in the camps

      16   while you were a trainer at Abu Bakr Sadeek?

      17   A   Marwan came at the end of, when I was in Sadeek camp, he

      18   came later on to Farouq camp as a trainer.

      19   Q   Do you know what Marwan was training people in?

      20   A   Well, I have never been there while he was training in el

      21   Farouq camp but from the brothers --

      22            MR. WILFORD:  Objection.

      23   Q   Answer this yes or no.  Did you ever discuss with Marwan

      24   or anyone in al Qaeda what Marwan was training people in?  Yes

      25   or no.

                                                                    1137

       1            THE COURT:  Break it down.

       2   Q   Did you ever discuss with Marwan what it was that he was

       3   doing in the camps?  Yes or no.

       4   A   I discuss with other people.

       5   Q   And the other people you discussed it with, were they

       6   members of al Qaeda?  Yes or no.

       7   A   Yes.

       8   Q   Did they tell you what it was that Marwan was training

       9   people in?  Yes or no.

      10   A   Yes.

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would now ask the

      12   question what did they tell you he was training for?

      13   A   As a maybe member of al Qaeda and the trainer in Abu Bakr

      14   Sadeek camp, when we meet each other, whether in el Farouq or

      15   Sadeek camp, the other trainers, we just say how is --

      16            MR. WILFORD:  Objection.

      17   Q   Don't tell us how you had the conversation, just tell us

      18   what you were told.

      19   A   He was a trainer in el Farouq camp.

      20   Q   Did they tell you what he trained people in, not the camp

      21   but what area of expertise?

      22   A   No.

      23   Q   At the time that you were in the camps for approximately

      24   one year, were you married?

      25   A   Yes, I was.

                                                                    1138

       1   Q   Where did your wife live?

       2   A   She was living in Peshawar.

       3   Q   How often did you see your wife while you were at the camp

       4   in Afghanistan?

       5   A   It's a week in a month.  I mean, if I spend three weeks in

       6   the camp, the fourth week I go back to Peshawar.

       7   Q   Did there come a time when you left the area of the camps

       8   in Khost and moved somewhere else?

       9   A   Excuse me.

      10   Q   Did there come a time when you left your job as a trainer

      11   in the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp?

      12   A   Yes.

      13   Q   Where did you go?

      14   A   I went to Peshawar.

      15   Q   When you got to Peshawar, what did you do?

      16   A   I stayed there sometimes in Peshawar, then Abu Hafs el

      17   Masry called me with some other people for us to attend

      18   another training session.

      19   Q   When you said Abu Hafs called you, is that the same person

      20   Abu Hafs el Masry that you indicated was on the military

      21   committee?

      22   A   Yes.

      23   Q   When Abu Hafs told you to attend a training session, where

      24   did he tell you this?

      25   A   It was exactly in Usama Bin Laden's house in Hyatabad

                                                                    1139

       1   Peshawar.

       2   Q   Is Hyatabad a neighborhood in Peshawar?

       3   A   It's in Peshawar, but I don't understand neighborhood

       4   exactly.  It's not far from Peshawar.  It's among Peshawar.

       5   It's one nice residential place of Peshawar.

       6   Q   Do you recall what year it was, and, if you recall,

       7   approximately what month that Abu Hafs told you and others to

       8   attend training during a meeting at Usama Bin Laden's house?

       9   A   It was approximately 1992.

      10   Q   Do you know if that was early or late 1992, if you recall?

      11   A   I am not quite sure.

      12   Q   Did he tell you then what type of training it would be?

      13   A   No.  Abu Hafs didn't tell us anything about the type of

      14   training but he told us that the trainer is a severe man, not

      15   very observant -- can I use the interpreter, please.

      16   (Interpreted) strict man.  He is very strict and very -- you

      17   have to just be patient with him.  He is very, very strict and

      18   not gentle.

      19   Q   And you mentioned that he wasn't observant.  Did Abu Hafs

      20   tell you in what manner this person was not observant?

      21   A   I mean he is not a good practitioner of Islam.  You can

      22   hear from him some bad words, which we weren't telling each

      23   other, from brothers.

      24   Q   Did Abu Hafs tell you whether or not this person who would

      25   be training you was a member of al Qaeda or not?

                                                                    1140

       1   A   No, he didn't mention anything.

       2   Q   Did he tell you the name of the trainer?

       3   A   No, he didn't say anything.

       4   Q   Did you actually attend this training?

       5   A   Yes.

       6   Q   Can you tell the jury where the training took place and

       7   what kind of training it was?

       8   A   It was in the same place, in Hyatabad, the same area, but

       9   in another section of Hyatabad, a little bit big.  It was in,

      10   I think, phase two, something like that.  The trainer, the

      11   training was surveillance training.

      12   Q   Who was the trainer who taught you this surveillance

      13   training?

      14   A   It was Abu Mohamed al Amriki.

      15   Q   Can you tell the jury what al Amriki means.

      16   A   The American.

      17   Q   Can you tell us what other names you knew the person Abu

      18   Mohamed al Amriki by?

      19   A   I knew him by Bakhbola, by Bili Bili, by Haydara.

      20   Q   You mentioned Bakhbola.  We will come back to that in a

      21   moment.  You mentioned Bili Bili, and you mentioned Haydara.

      22   First starting with Bakhbola, do you know what that word means

      23   or what language that comes from?

      24   A   Well, this guy is a funny guy, and we had guy in the house

      25   we were training in, and that guy, he is Afghan and speaking

                                                                    1141

       1   Afghani language.  I think he took it from the word Bakhbol.

       2   I don't understand that word, Afghan word.

       3   Q   So the word Bakhbol was an Afghan word, not Arabic word?

       4   A   Yes.

       5   Q   And you mentioned the name Bili Bili.  Does that name mean

       6   anything to you in Arabic or any other language you

       7   understand?

       8   A   No.

       9   Q   Did you get any indication of where he came up with that

      10   name?

      11   A   No, I said he is a funny guy all the time, bringing some

      12   new names.

      13   Q   And you mentioned Haydara.

      14   A   Yes.

      15   Q   Did he train alone or did he have assistance of someone

      16   else?

      17   A   No, there was another guy with him.

      18   Q   Do you recall who that person's name?

      19   A   Adnan.  He was Egyptian.

      20   Q   The person that you knew as Abu Mohamed, the American,

      21   what nationality did he appear to be?

      22   A   What is his nationality?

      23   Q   Yes.

      24   A   He is Egyptian.

      25   Q   What languages did he speak?

                                                                    1142

       1   A   Arabic.

       2   Q   Did you ever speak English with him?  Did you know English

       3   at the time?

       4   A   I was speaking English, but no, he doesn't speak English

       5   with me.  He was speaking only Arabic.

       6   Q   Can you tell us who the students were in the class taught

       7   by this Abu Mohamed al Amriki.

       8   A   We are two groups normally, each group of four people.

       9   The first group was me and Anas al Liby and Saif al Liby.

      10   Q   Anyone else you recall in the first group besides

      11   yourself, Anas al Liby and Saif al Liby?

      12   A   I think Abu Madyan el Masry.  In the other group there was

      13   Abu Ahmed el Masry and another guy, a Jordanian guy, and

      14   another Saudi guy.  And Abu Rifa al Liby.

      15   Q   Can you tell the jury what it was you were trained in by

      16   the person Abu Mohamed the American?

      17   A   At the beginning he started checking our intelligence and

      18   some exercise.  After that, he explained about the trainer.

      19   It's surveillance, how to make surveillance of targets and how

      20   to collect information about these targets.

      21   Q   Can you describe what it was you were told to do when you

      22   collected information and did surveillance of targets.  What

      23   were the details of what you were instructed to do?

      24   A   So as to collect information about the target we use

      25   different techniques, like, for example, using, whether to go

                                                                    1143

       1   to see the target, then you take pictures of that target, then

       2   locate the target in a map, then if you can go in the target

       3   so as to see how many people are working there, if there are

       4   some people there or not.  And all kind of information that

       5   can help in your report.

       6   Q   Before we get to the report, were you trained in any

       7   particular equipment to use during surveillance?

       8   A   Yes.  We trained how to use different cameras, especially

       9   small cameras, and how to take pictures in the guesthouse in

      10   which we were living.  You take your camera without using the

      11   camera straight in your eyes.  You just take it like this.

      12   And another guy came behind us to see if you are taking the

      13   target very well or not.  Then he will say go down or up,

      14   until you used to take the picture very well without using

      15   your eyes.

      16   Q   Do you recall what type of cameras were you were trained

      17   to use?

      18   A   There was Olympus and Canon.  I don't remember the others.

      19   Q   What were you supposed to do with the film once you took

      20   the pictures?

      21   A   After taking, normally after taking pictures we go back to

      22   our place and we develop them, that picture, that film, using

      23   a machine, and product, fixer and developer and water.

      24   Normally you take a place in that room, we close all the

      25   places and we use only the red lights and we use some bowls in

                                                                    1144

       1   which there is some fixers and developer and we wash that

       2   films, and put them up to dry, and after that we use the

       3   machine so as to get the pictures.

       4   Q   Were you trained during this time in how to develop

       5   pictures with the negatives and using developing fluid?

       6   A   Yes.

       7   Q   Tell us about what you were instructed to write in the

       8   reports when you did a surveillance.

       9   A   Writing the report normally, in the front paper you say

      10   how secret it is in the top, the target you are using, and the

      11   daytime date, the date, and even the time you started your

      12   work, and the name of the target, and you start describing the

      13   target and putting all the information of the target.  You

      14   draw the pictures, if there is a map, and some addresses.

      15   Q   How would you describe the target in the reports that you

      16   were trained to write?

      17   A   For example, if it's a room like this one, if you can get

      18   in that room, you just go in and you look at how it is from

      19   inside, how it is from outside, the walls, the colors, how big

      20   are the walls and which color are they and how high they are,

      21   the lights, the doors, the floor, everything that you can see,

      22   all information about that room.

      23   Q   In the beginning you said you described what the target

      24   was.  If you were looking at a post office, what would you

      25   write in the report?

                                                                    1145

       1   A   You write the post office there.

       2   Q   Did you ever use numbers in the reports?

       3   A   Sometimes you use the number, other code.

       4   Q   During this time did any of the people in the class have

       5   any equipment besides camera equipment and equipment to

       6   develop pictures?

       7   A   At the end, Abu Anas al Liby brought two computers so as

       8   to teach us how to put all this information we collected.

       9   Instead of reporting you put them in the computer and just put

      10   them in a disk so as to be easy to carry.

      11   Q   How long did this training last?

      12   A   It was almost two weeks.

      13   Q   During that time, did your group or the other group do any

      14   practical exercises, where you would go out and do actual

      15   surveillances of places other than the building where you were

      16   working?

      17   A   Yes.  We started with small things, like bridge, like

      18   stadium, like normal places in which nobody is, and then in

      19   the second stage we went to police stations, for example, and

      20   in my group we were trained to go to Iranian consulate and

      21   Iranian cultural center.

      22   Q   Where were the Iranian consulate and Iranian cultural

      23   center?  In what city?

      24   A   Everything was in Peshawar.  We were only in Peshawar.

      25   Q   During your training, were you instructed as to what would

                                                                    1146

       1   happen to the reports once they were written?

       2   A   Normally if you write a report, you take it to a safe

       3   place where you can drop it, and somebody else will come and

       4   take it to your boss.

       5   Q   Were you told what the roles would be in terms of who

       6   would do what with the report?

       7   A   I didn't ask that.

       8   Q   If your understanding was if you were trained in

       9   surveillance you wrote the report, what role would the person

      10   who wrote the report perform afterward?

      11            MR. WILFORD:  Objection.

      12            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      13   A   I didn't understand that.  (Interpreted)

      14            That was the end of his role.

      15   Q   Did you know what happened to the report, who it would go

      16   to, whether there was any other group involved?

      17   A   During the training, Mohammed explained us that this job

      18   is the first part of military part.  I mean, you collect the

      19   information about this certain targets, and whenever you

      20   finish your work, our group, we just leave, we send our

      21   reports to our bosses and we leave.  So this number two -- our

      22   bosses are number two.  Those people, they go through this

      23   report and they read all the information, and everything.

      24   Then they decide, they make some decisions how to attack that

      25   target, and the first -- then they send another group who

                                                                    1147

       1   supply everything so as to attack that target.  Whenever that

       2   group, third group finish his job, he has to leave.  No one at

       3   the end the fourth group who can do the job come so as to do

       4   the final job.

       5   Q   So there are four groups.

       6   A   Yes, four groups.

       7   Q   Let me show you a picture that has been marked for

       8   identification as Government's Exhibit 112 and ask you to look

       9   at Government's Exhibit 112 for identification and tell us if

      10   you recognize the person in that photograph.

      11   A   Yes, I do.

      12   Q   Who is that?

      13   A   Anas al Liby.

      14   Q   Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the person you

      15   knew as Anas al Liby?

      16   A   Yes.

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Exhibit

      18   112 in evidence.

      19            THE COURT:  Yes, received.

      20            (Government's Exhibit 112 received in evidence)

      21   Q   Is that the Anas al Liby who was also attending this class

      22   and who had the two computers?

      23   A   Yes.

      24   Q   During the time that you and your group participated in

      25   the exercises to do the surveillances of the Iranian consulate

                                                                    1148

       1   and the Iranian cultural center, did you have an understanding

       2   whether or not those surveillances were for a real operation

       3   or for practice, or were you not sure?

       4   A   No, we weren't sure.

       5   Q   During this time did you surveil any people in addition to

       6   surveilling buildings?

       7   A   Yes.  We were trained so as to make -- I will use the

       8   interpreter.

       9            (Through interpreter) It means we would be in

      10   surveillance of somebody following him on foot, or if it's

      11   going to be by car, following him by car.

      12   Q   During this time, during that two-week period did you

      13   actually do a surveillance of a real person?

      14   A   Yes, we were trained to do that between us, but after that

      15   we done the surveillance for a guy coming from Islamabad.  He

      16   was Egyptian and he was working in the Egyptian embassy, and

      17   he was coming to Peshawar so as to contact a guy there in

      18   Peshawar.  So we were following him.

      19   Q   Who was in the group that followed him?

      20   A   I think all members of the both groups, we were all of us

      21   working on that.

      22   Q   During the time of this two weeks training, when you were

      23   trained by Abu Mohamed, the American, and Adnan, did you ever

      24   learn whether or not they were members of al Qaeda?

      25   A   No, I don't think -- no, they were not from al Qaeda.

                                                                    1149

       1   Q   Did you ever learn what group they were from?

       2   A   We have been told that they were from Al Jihad group.

       3   Q   The Al Jihad group from which country?

       4   A   The Egyptian Al Jihad group.

       5   Q   After the training was over, were you told where Haydara

       6   or Abu Mohamed the American was going next?

       7   A   Abu Mohamed or Haydara told me that he is going to Jihad

       8   Wal camp so as to give another military course to the trainers

       9   there.

      10            (Continued on next page)

      11

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1150

       1            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, there is a slight

       2   logistical bump in the next exhibit.  This might be a

       3   convenient breaking point.

       4            THE COURT:  We will have our luncheon break and we

       5   will resume at 2:15.

       6            (Jury excused)

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, there are some in limine

       8   matters that we need to take up in the robing room at some

       9   point and I want to alert your Honor --

      10            THE COURT:  Is there any reason not to do it now?

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  No.

      12            (Continued on next page)

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1151

       1            (In the robing room)

       2            THE COURT:  Mr. Fitzgerald.

       3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes.  There are two issues.  One, I

       4   believe counsel were given a letter this morning about some

       5   topics, in limine issues that we assume the defense did not

       6   want the government to get into.

       7            THE COURT:  That is your letter of February 21, which

       8   we will mark Court Exhibit A of today's date.

       9            MR. COHN:  We haven't seen it.

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  I thought it was handed out today.

      11            MR. COHN:  You may have handed it out selectively but

      12   you ignored some of us.

      13            THE COURT:  Mr. Cohn, do you want to borrow mine?

      14            MR. COHN:  Thank you, your Honor.

      15            MR. RUHNKE:  There was a lot of paper handed out this

      16   morning, to be fair.

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  I think the topic was the killing of

      18   the son of Abu Faraj al Yemeni.  I assume you were taking the

      19   same position as before with al-Fadl, that we should not get

      20   into that incident, but I want to make sure.

      21            MR. SCHMIDT:  No, we don't plan to go into that, your

      22   Honor.  Just for a comment on the letter, the Ramzi Yousef

      23   issue, it wasn't our intention to go into the World Trade

      24   Center bombing, just the use of the name Ramzi Yousef by the

      25   last witness, to try to make him salable to the Americans.  So

                                                                    1152

       1   the government misstates our purpose in its letter.

       2            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, had we known we were

       3   doing that, we would have elicited the comment about the

       4   mastermind of the World Trade Center bombing that counsel

       5   listed.  If it is off limits, we should have that clear from

       6   the get-go.

       7            MR. WILFORD:  On this issue Mr. Fitzgerald is talking

       8   about now, I am not prepared to give an answer now on that.

       9   Do you plan to do it this afternoon?

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  Which one?

      11            MR. WILFORD:  The killing of the son of Abu Faraj --

      12            MR. FITZGERALD:  I will leave it out and we can go

      13   over it at the end of the day.

      14            MR. BAUGH:  You don't expect to finish today?

      15            MR. FITZGERALD:  No.  The second was the attack of

      16   the former king of Afghanistan in Italy.  Some people

      17   affiliated with al Qaeda stabbed the former king of

      18   Afghanistan while he was living in exile in Italy.  I believe

      19   one of them was arrested, and this person, Abu Mohamed, the

      20   American, which is Ali Mohamed, was sent to Italy to

      21   investigate and was frustrated in his investigation and

      22   brought back articles from the Italian newspaper concerning

      23   the event of a stabbing of the king of Afghanistan and brought

      24   them back to Nairobi, and this witness, I believe, may have

      25   translated some of them.

                                                                    1153

       1            The whole question is, do we want to get into the

       2   episode of the killing of the former king of Afghanistan or

       3   not.

       4            MR. BAUGH:  We have no plans.

       5            MR. WILFORD:  No.

       6            THE COURT:  You have others?

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, if I could peek over your

       8   Honor's shoulder.

       9            The witness was at one point asked to prepare himself

      10   to get a visa to go to Saudi Arabia.  He got the visa and was

      11   not asked to go to Saudi Arabia, but at the time he observed

      12   an Egyptian person who was not a pilot debriefing a friend of

      13   his, Ihab Ali, about how air traffic control works and what

      14   people say over the air traffic control system, and it was his

      15   belief that there might have been a plan to send a pilot to

      16   Saudi Arabia or someone familiar with that to monitor the air

      17   traffic communications so they could possibly attack an

      18   airplane perhaps belonging to an Egyptian president or

      19   something in Saudi Arabia.  He is not certain of that.

      20            I just want to know if that is something that you

      21   wish to examine on or not.

      22            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, for the record, I have gone

      23   through this and Mr. El Hage does not wish to go into any of

      24   this.

      25            MR. COHN:  To shortcircuit, if you want to make a

                                                                    1154

       1   record of what the letter is, neither does Al-'Owhali.

       2            MR. RUHNKE:  Nor do we on behalf of K.K. Mohamed.

       3            THE COURT:  So as to Odeh you are reserving on the

       4   first item, the killing of the son of Abu Mohamed Faraj al

       5   Yemeni.

       6            MR. WILFORD:  We would also like to reserve on the

       7   item subheaded the death of a Kenyan intelligence officer.

       8   Thus, the first and the last we would like to reserve on.

       9            MR. FITZGERALD:  The death of the Kenyan intelligence

      10   officer I think would come up in the afternoon in the course

      11   of events.  If Mr. Wilford would tell us -- that is the first

      12   set of redactions.

      13            THE COURT:  When you say redactions, you mean areas

      14   that you have agreed not to examine on direct and which except

      15   as to the first and last items where Mr. Wilford has reserved,

      16   other defendants have indicated that they do not intend to

      17   raise the topics.

      18            MR. FITZGERALD:  The next issue may involve

      19   classified information, so I don't know if everyone here is

      20   cleared.

      21            (Conference filed under separate cover under seal)

      22            (Luncheon recess)

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1155

       1                 A F T E R N O O N    S E S S I O N

       2                             2:30 p.m.

       3            (In open court; jury present; witness resumed)

       4            MR. FITZGERALD:  May I proceed, Judge.

       5            THE COURT:  Yes, Mr. Fitzgerald, you may proceed.

       6   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

       7   Q   Mr. Kherchtou, let me ask you if you're familiar with?

       8

       9   anyone in al Qaeda who used the following names or nicknames?

      10   Hajj, or Ba Hajj?

      11   A   Hajj means Usama Bin Laden.

      12   Q   And that would be H-A-J-J.

      13            How about the word the name for director.  The

      14   director?

      15   A   Same thing.  You can say Usama Bin Laden.

      16   Q   Sorry?

      17   A   I said sometimes Bin Laden can call him the director, but

      18   I've never called him.

      19   Q   And when you say Abu Abdullah the director, which Abu

      20   Abdullah?

      21   A   Usama Bin Laden.

      22   Q   Can we display the photograph we qued up before the lunch

      23   break which I believe is 403R.

      24            Sir, do you recognize the person in Government

      25   Exhibit 403R?

                                                                    1156

       1   A   I don't have anything on my screen.

       2   Q   We'll get I a copy of 403R.  First, if you can keep your

       3   voice up again so that everyone in the room can hear and that

       4   requires probably getting as close to the microphone as you

       5   can.

       6            Do you recognize the person depicted in Government

       7   Exhibit 403R as in Robert?

       8   A   Yes.

       9   Q   Can you tell the jury who that is?

      10   A   Abu Mohamed al Amriki or Haydara.

      11   Q   I believe 403R is already in evidence so I ask that you

      12   display that to the jury.

      13            Is that the same Abu Mohammed who taught you and the

      14   others the surveillance training in Pakistan?

      15   A   Yes.

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, we would offer 403R.  I

      17   thought it was offered in evidence.

      18            THE COURT:  Received.

      19            (Government's Exhibit 403R received in evidence)

      20   Q   Is that the same Abu Mohamed al Amriki who taught you

      21   surveillance training in Pakistan that you described before

      22   lunch?

      23   A   Yes.

      24   Q   Now, did there come a time when you were asked to undergo

      25   a different type of training in Pakistan?

                                                                    1157

       1   A   Well, after this training of surveillance a friend of mine

       2   who was in the same group, he's, I don't remember his

       3   nickname, he told me if I can go with him to study

       4   electronics.

       5   Q   And did you go to study electronics?

       6   A   Yes.  Al Qaeda at that time they have a workshop in

       7   Hyatabad, I think it was in Fey Street in Hyatabad.  So I went

       8   there.  There were two guys were working there in that

       9   workshop.

      10   Q   And who are the two guys working in the al Qaeda

      11   electronics workshop in Hyatabad?

      12   A   Well, they called Abu al Alkali and another guy called

      13   Salem the Iraqui.

      14   Q   So one name is Abu ABU-AL-ALKALI.

      15   A   Yes.

      16   Q   And the second one is S-A-L-E-M, the Iraqi?

      17   A   Yes.

      18   Q   Abu al Alkali do you know what country he was from?

      19   A   Egyptian.

      20   Q   Can you tell us what you did?  Did you actually go to this

      21   workshop?

      22   A   Yes.  I went to the workshop to start electronics but they

      23   found out that I don't know anything about electronics, and

      24   they told me just to study from the beginning and to recognize

      25   start knowing the different components, and I stayed there

                                                                    1158

       1   some times until another guy came a Jordanian guy came and he

       2   found me there.  He asked me if I am engineer or what I'm

       3   doing in this workshop.  I said I'm not engineer and he told

       4   me, why don't you go to the institute to study as a student.

       5   He told me the institute was in Bebi, it's another place in

       6   Peshawar.

       7   Q   B-E-B-I?

       8   A   Yes.

       9   Q   Did you go to the electronics institute in Bebi?

      10   A   Yes.  I didn't have time to stay in that institute but I

      11   went to the institute.  I brought courses because the

      12   electronics courses was divided in many phases, three phases

      13   or four phases.  So they gave me first one.  I studied at

      14   home, and everyday go to the work shop, and after two months

      15   every two months I go to sit for the exam.

      16   Q   How long in total do you estimate that you spent working

      17   in the workshop where Abu al Alkali works?

      18   A   I'm not quite sure, but it's over than six months.

      19   Q   And how many times did you go to the electronics institute

      20   in Bebi?

      21   A   Well, many times but not sometimes for the exam, sometimes

      22   to visit the institute.

      23   Q   Did you ever graduate from the electronics institute?

      24   A   No.

      25   Q   And what type of things were going on in the al Qaeda

                                                                    1159

       1   electronics workshop in Hytabad?

       2   A   Well, I am not able to say exactly what is going on, but

       3   they were working everyday there, and many oscilloscopes and

       4   machines, and they were talking about code and decoders and

       5   about things that I don't know exactly.

       6   Q   What were they discussing in your presence that they were

       7   working on?

       8   A   Well, by then I understand they are controls about

       9   decoders.

      10            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I object to the foundation.

      11   Q   Did they discuss remote controls in front of you?

      12            MR. SCHMIDT:  I object for foundation purposes.  It's

      13   hearsay statements by made by other people.

      14   Q   Let me focus a few questions.

      15            THE COURT:  Restate the question.

      16   Q   I'm not asking about the institute.  I'm asking about the

      17   workshops where Abu Alkali was.  Did you work for

      18   approximately six months in the workshop?

      19   A   Yes, I worked over than six months there.

      20   Q   During time that you worked there did you hear the people

      21   who were working there discuss what they were doing?

      22            MR. SCHMIDT:  I object.

      23            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      24            MR. SCHMIDT:  I further object to the workshop

      25   itself.  I don't think a foundation has been laid.

                                                                    1160

       1            THE COURT:  Overruled.

       2            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       3   A   Well, the workshop was al Qaeda workshop anyway, and they

       4   were working in decoders, encoders, and radios, watches, and a

       5   lot of stuff there.

       6   Q   Did you see them doing these things?

       7   A   Yes.

       8   Q   Did you hear them discussing it?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   Now, can you tell us physically where the workshop was

      11   located in Hyatabad?

      12   A   In phase three I think and it's not far from Usama Bin

      13   Laden's house.

      14   Q   How big was the building in which the workshop was

      15   located?

      16   A   It's medium building of two floors, the first floor and

      17   the second floor.

      18   Q   And in which floor was the workshop located?

      19   A   It was on the first floor.

      20   Q   Now, did there come a time when a number of people from al

      21   Qaeda began to leave Pakistan?

      22   A   Excuse me?

      23   Q   Did there come a time when al Qaeda members began to leave

      24   Pakistan?

      25   A   Yes, they were leaving, not only people of al Qaeda, many

                                                                    1161

       1   other people they were leaving Pakistan at certain time, yes.

       2   Q   Did there come a time when, did you ever try to go up to

       3   the second floor of the building where the workshop was

       4   located?

       5   A   Well, at the beginning it was, it was, it wasn't, I

       6   couldn't go.  It was, it wasn't allowed to anybody to go in.

       7   Q   Did you ever see who was working up in the second floor of

       8   the workshop?

       9   A   Yeah, there was Anas al Liby, Abu Marwan and Abu Rafa.

      10   Q   Were those the same three people who were in the

      11   surveillance class that you told us about before lunch?

      12   A   Yes.

      13   Q   Did there ever come a time where you actually did go up to

      14   the second floor of that building where the workshop was

      15   located?

      16   A   Yes.  Again when many people left al Qaeda left even they

      17   moved from that place, and they were still in the workshop I

      18   went there, I found a lot of things in that building.

      19   Q   On the first floor or the second floor?

      20   A   No, the second floor.

      21   Q   What did you see in the second floor?

      22   A   Well, a lot of things about stamps and visas, and stuff

      23   like this.

      24   Q   What type of stamps?

      25   A   Different stamps of Arabic countries and Pakistan.

                                                                    1162

       1   Q   Did they appear to be stamps and visas that belonged to a

       2   government?

       3   A   Yes.

       4   Q   Did they appear to be legitimate stamps and visas that the

       5   Pakistan government was using for their passports?

       6            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.

       7            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       8   Q   Do you know what countries there were, what the names of

       9   the countries that were that were on the stamps of the visas?

      10   A   I don't remember.

      11   Q   Do you know if it was one country or more than one

      12   country?

      13   A   Oh, many, many countries.

      14   Q   While you were in Pakistan did you attend a mosque on

      15   Friday?

      16   A   Yes.

      17   Q   Was there any particular mosque you attended?

      18   A   Well, many mosques but the best one was Marquez al Noor.

      19   Q   Could you say that slowly, please?

      20   A   Marquez al Noor.

      21   Q   During time that you attended the mosque did you hear any

      22   discussion about al Qaeda's view towards the United States

      23   while you were in Pakistan?

      24   A   Well, in that mosque it's not al Qaeda mosque.  So

      25   everybody can pray there, every Arab in Peshawar most of them

                                                                    1163

       1   they are praying there, so.

       2   Q   Did you ever have a discussion with al Qaeda members

       3   focusing on al Qaeda members in Pakistan in the period around

       4   1992, as to what al Qaeda's position was toward the United

       5   States?

       6   A   Well, there is a clear view, an obvious view about the

       7   United States as an enemy of every, all the Arabs there.

       8   Q   Now, did there come a time when you left Pakistan?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   Can you tell us when it was and where you went?

      11   A   The first time I went to pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia.

      12   Q   Can you tell the jury what the pilgrimage is called?  What

      13   the name of it is?

      14   A   One of the pillars of Islam in which every Muslim can do

      15   if he can afford it.

      16   Q   Is that called hajj?

      17   A   Yes.

      18   Q   And what did you do when you completed the hajj?

      19   A   I turned back to Pakistan.

      20   Q   And do you recall approximately when it was that you went

      21   back to Pakistan after the hajj?

      22   A   Excuse me.  I didn't hear.

      23   Q   Do you know when it was, what year and if you recall the

      24   month that you returned to Pakistan after making the hajj?

      25   A   Well, it was in 1993, but probably in early '93.

                                                                    1164

       1   Q   And how long did you stay in Pakistan after that?

       2   A   I can't remember.

       3   Q   Where did you go next?

       4   A   Went from Pakistan I left to Kenya.

       5   Q   And why did you go from Pakistan to Kenya?

       6   A   Well, a member of al Qaeda Saif al Islam told me that they

       7   need me to go to Kenya to study flying.

       8   Q   And flying what?

       9   A   Flying the aircraft and one day I will be the Usama Bin

      10   Laden's pilot.

      11   Q   The first person you mentioned who told you this was Saif

      12   al Islam?

      13   A   Yes.

      14   Q   Is that the same Saif al Islam in you told us this morning

      15   was in the military committee?

      16   A   Yes.

      17   Q   What did you do after Saif al Islam told you to go to

      18   Nairobi to study flying?

      19   A   Well, I stayed sometimes in Peshawar.  Then I left to

      20   Kenya.

      21   Q   And what happened when you got to Kenya?

      22   A   Well, they told me when you reach the airport you get the

      23   visa and you meet us, and near Jamia mosque.

      24   Q   J-A-M-I-A?

      25   A   Yes.

                                                                    1165

       1   Q   Can you describe what that mosque looks like from the

       2   outside, what color is it?

       3   A   Green and white.

       4   Q   And did you meet anyone outside the Jamia Mosque when you

       5   arrived in Nairobi?

       6   A   Yeah, exactly it was in front of the Muninin Restaurant.

       7   It's not far from the mosque.

       8   Q   The M-U-N-I-N-I-N restaurant?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   And who did you meet outside that restaurant near the

      11   mosque?

      12   A   I meet Saif al Liby himself and Nawawi and Abu Ahmed el

      13   Masri.

      14   Q   So the three persons you mentioned and this other person

      15   whose picture you identified this morning?

      16   A   Yes.

      17   Q   You mentioned Nawawi.  Do you know what Nawawi's true

      18   legal name is?

      19   A   Ihab Ali.

      20   Q   And what other names did you know Ihab Ali or Nawawi by?

      21   A   Abu al Tayar.

      22   Q   Anything else?

      23   A   Yosef Kenana.

      24   Q   Can you tell us what the word Yosef in Arabic means in

      25   English?

                                                                    1166

       1   A   Joseph.

       2   Q   And do you know if Ihab Ali had any children?

       3   A   Yes, he had a son.

       4   Q   Do you know the son's name?

       5   A   I'm not quite sure, probably Suliman or Abu Suliman I'm

       6   not sure.

       7   Q   S-U-L-I-M-A-N.  Did you know if he ever went by the name

       8   Abu Suliman?

       9   A   Sometimes we call him Abu Suliman because it comes very

      10   late.

      11   Q   The third person I believe you mentioned that met you at

      12   the restaurant was Abu Khaleenubi?

      13   A   Yes.

      14   Q   Can you tell us what other names you knew Abu Khaleenubi

      15   I?

      16   A   Mustafa.  Abu Khaleenubi or Mustafa.

      17   Q   Let me show you what's been marked for identification as

      18   Government Exhibit 117 for identification purposes only and

      19   we'll show it to it witness and to counsel.  Is your screen

      20   working?

      21   A   No.

      22   Q   Let me show you a hard copy of 117.  Do you recognize the

      23   person depicted in Government Exhibit 117 for identification?

      24   A   Yes.

      25   Q   Who is that?

                                                                    1167

       1   A   Abu Khalineebi Mustafa.

       2   Q   Is that the person you just identified that you met in

       3   Nairobi?

       4   A   Yes.

       5   Q   Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the person you

       6   knew as Abu Khalid Anubi or Mustafa?

       7   A   Yes.

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

       9   Exhibit 117 in evidence?

      10            THE COURT:  Received.

      11            (Government's Exhibit 117 received in evidence)

      12   Q   If I can display to the witness Government Exhibit 108

      13   which I believe is in evidence and, if so, I'd like to display

      14   it to the jury as well.

      15            Do you recognize the person depicted in Government

      16   Exhibit 108?

      17   A   I don't have anything on my screen.

      18   Q   Do you recognize the person depicted in Government Exhibit

      19   108?

      20   A   Yes.

      21   Q   Who is that?

      22   A   Nawawi.

      23   Q   Now, where did you live once you arrived in Nairobi?

      24   A   Well, they took me to a guest house in Nairobi.

      25   Q   And can you describe the general neighborhood or area or

                                                                    1168

       1   landmarks around where the guest house was then located?

       2   A   It was in Nairobi, in Nairobi, but I think in Park Road.

       3   It's near Sir Ali Sports Center.

       4   Q   P-A-R-K Road near Sir Ali Sports Center?

       5   A   Yes.  There is a mosque there for Shiite mosque.

       6   Q   What kind of mosque?

       7   A   There is a mosque for Shiite Muslims.

       8   Q   How long did you stay at the guest house?

       9   A   Not too much.

      10   Q   Who paid for your expenses when you stayed at the guest

      11   house?

      12   A   Well, the people in the guest house.

      13   Q   So you didn't have to pay your own money for staying

      14   there?

      15   A   No.

      16   Q   And where did you move to after the guest house?

      17   A   Well, after the guest house went to Sudan.

      18   Q   And for how long were you in the Sudan?

      19   A   After the guest house I went to the school so I myself in

      20   the flying school.  After the registration they told me to

      21   prepare everything and I prepared all documents.  I put them

      22   in the immigration.  I was waiting the answer for to get the

      23   residence permit.

      24   Q   More slowly.  When you were at the guest house you went to

      25   register at you said CMC Flying School, correct?

                                                                    1169

       1   A   Yes.

       2   Q   Where is that located?

       3   A   Well it's located in airport.

       4   Q   Is that in Kenya or the Sudan?

       5   A   No, in Nairobi, Kenya.

       6   Q   Once you registered you were told to wait for some

       7   documents?

       8   A   Yes.  They gave me all documents that they need and I fill

       9   all the forms, and they told me to go to the immigration

      10   service to get the permit to study in Kenya.

      11   Q   And what did you do while you were waiting for the

      12   documents?

      13   A   It was twenty days to get the results from immigration.  I

      14   went back to Sudan.

      15   Q   And where was your family living at this time, your wife

      16   and children?

      17   A   At that time they moved from Pakistan to Saudi Arabia and

      18   Saudi Arabia to Sudan.

      19   Q   And while you stayed in Kenya did you periodically go up

      20   to visit your family in the Sudan?

      21   A   Yes.

      22   Q   And did there come a time when you lived in Kenya in a

      23   place other than the guest house?

      24   A   Yes, I lived in many places in Kenya.

      25   Q   What was the next place that you lived after the guest

                                                                    1170

       1   house?

       2   A   It was in Ramada Hotel.

       3   Q   R-A-M-A-D-A?

       4   A   Yes.

       5   Q   Does that have anything to do as far as you know with the

       6   Ramada Hotel chain here in the United States?

       7   A   I don't think so.  It's a small hotel, very, you know,

       8   poor area.  It wasn't even classified.

       9   Q   And the hotel, do you know what the name of the

      10   neighborhood it was located in?

      11   A   It's in Eastleigh area, in Nairobi.

      12   Q   E-A-S-T-L-E-I-G-H.  Can you tell us what year and what

      13   month as best you can recall that you went from Pakistan to

      14   Nairobi Kenya where you met the three persons you described?

      15   A   I think it was in October of '93.

      16   Q   And did you actually attend the CMC Flying School?

      17   A   Yes.

      18   Q   Now, during that time in Kenya do you have occasion to

      19   ever see Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?

      20   A   Yes.

      21   Q   What was he doing there in Kenya?

      22   A   I don't know exactly what was doing there, but I saw him

      23   many times.

      24   Q   And did you know whether or not Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri

      25   had a family?

                                                                    1171

       1   A   Yes, he had a family.

       2   Q   How many families?

       3   A   He had two families.

       4   Q   Tell us where each family was located?

       5   A   He had two wives.  The first one is Egyptian and she was

       6   living in Sudan with our wives, and he got married again in

       7   Kenya.  This one I knew later on in '95.

       8   Q   From the period in October '93 until 1995, were you aware

       9   that Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri had a wife in Kenya?

      10   A   No.

      11            MR. COHN:  Objection, relevance.

      12            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      13   Q   And did you eventually meet Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri's wife

      14   in Kenya?

      15   A   Well, I saw they were working with that lady, but I don't

      16   know that she is his wife.

      17   Q   Did you eventually learn that she was his wife?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   Did you do anything for al Qaeda in Nairobi besides

      20   attending the flying school CMC?

      21   A   I was helping other people of al Qaeda in Nairobi.

      22   Q   And can you describe for the jury concretely what it was

      23   that you were doing to help other al Qaeda people in Nairobi?

      24   A   Well, some people of al Qaeda they were in Somalia, and if

      25   somebody needs help while he's visiting transiting in Nairobi

                                                                    1172

       1   for them to travel to Sudan or to somebody if he needs a

       2   suitcase or if he needs to make some shopping, if he needs

       3   translator or any assistance I was there to do that.

       4   Q   Did you translate for people going to and from Somalia?

       5   A   Yes.  If somebody doesn't know English doesn't speak

       6   English, I can, I did that for some.

       7   Q   And did you come to learn who the various people in al

       8   Qaeda were who were going into Somalia and out of Somalia

       9   through Nairobi?

      10   A   Yes.  I met many people there.

      11   Q   Can you tell the jury who you recall from al Qaeda who

      12   transitted through Nairobi going to or from Somalia?

      13   A   Who?

      14   Q   Who?

      15   A   Who do I recall?

      16   Q   Yes?

      17            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      18            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you kindly repeat again the

      19   question?

      20   Q   Yes.  Who did you understand were the al Qaeda people who

      21   were traveling through Nairobi to Somalia or through Nairobi

      22   to Sudan coming from Somalia?

      23            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      24   A   Well, there are many people.  They were working in

      25   Somalia.  They were training people of Somalia.

                                                                    1173

       1   Q   Can you tell us the names of those people you can recall

       2   who were from al Qaeda who were working in Somalia and that

       3   were traveling through Nairobi?

       4   A   Well, I met a lot of them.  Like Mohamned el Masry, like

       5   Saif Adel.

       6   Q   You mentioned four names.  Abu Mohammed el Masry?

       7   A   Yes.

       8   Q   Is that the person you referred to earlier today as Saleh,

       9   S-A-L-E-H?

      10   A   Yes.

      11   Q   That's a different person than the Abu Mohammed, the

      12   American, right?

      13   A   Yes.

      14   Q   Why don't we call Abu Mohammed the American, Abu Mohammed

      15   the American and call Abu Mohammed Saleh calling him Saleh?

      16   A   Okay.

      17   Q   You mentioned Saif al Adel?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   Is that the same person you described as being on the

      20   military committee of al Qaeda?

      21   A   Yes.

      22   Q   You mentioned Abu Siad.  Who is he?

      23   A   He's a member of the military committee of al Qaeda, too.

      24   Q   Who else did you see transiting through Nairobi to or from

      25   Somalia?

                                                                    1174

       1   A   Abu Said Masry, Abu Islam Said, Abu Mohammed Mahejan.  Abu

       2   Suhaib el Masry, many of them.

       3   Q   Let me stop there.  You mentioned Abu S-U-H-A-I-B el

       4   Masry.  Was he known by any other name?

       5   A   Excuse me, Abu Mosab.

       6   Q   Abu Mosab?

       7   A   Yes.

       8   Q   Is that the name for Saif?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   What country was he from?

      11   A   Egyptian.

      12   Q   You mentioned Abu Islam Surir.  Is that one of the two Abu

      13   Islams you told us about this morning?

      14   A   Yes.

      15   Q   What other name was Abu Islam al Surir known by?

      16   A   Shuaib.

      17   Q   S-H-U-A-I-B?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   You mentioned an Abu el Muhajer.  Can you tell the jury

      20   who whether or not you know Abu Rachman al Muhajer by any

      21   other name?

      22   A   I don't remember.

      23   Q   Do you know if he was married?

      24   A   Yes.

      25   Q   Do you know anything about his wife that would identify

                                                                    1175

       1   her?

       2   A   Excuse me?

       3   Q   Do you know what nationality his wife was?

       4   A   She's Palestinian.

       5   Q   And had you ever met Abu Rachman Abu Hajer before you met

       6   him in Kenya?

       7   A   Yes, he was a trainer in Farouq camp.

       8   Q   That's the Farouq camp you were telling us about this

       9   morning?

      10   A   Yes.

      11   Q   Do you know what his specialty was, what he trained people

      12   in the Farouq camp in Afghanistan?

      13   A   He was training explosives.

      14   Q   And let me show you what's been marked for identification

      15   only as Government Exhibit 116, and I ask you to display that

      16   to the witness and counsel for the moment.

      17            Do you recognize the person depicted in Government

      18   Exhibit 116 for identification?

      19   A   It doesn't work.

      20   Q   Do you recognize the person depicted in Government Exhibit

      21   116 for Identification?

      22   A   Yes.

      23   Q   Who is that?

      24   A   Abu Rachman Abu Haj.

      25   Q   Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the person you

                                                                    1176

       1   described as Abu Rachman Abu Haj?

       2   A   Yes.

       3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I offer Government

       4   Exhibit 116 in evidence.

       5            THE COURT:  Received.

       6            (Government's Exhibit 116 received in evidence)

       7   Q   If I could display it to the jury.

       8            THE COURT:  Yes.

       9   Q   Now, were you told what the al Qaeda members were doing in

      10   Somalia once they got there?

      11   A   Excuse me?

      12   Q   Do you know where in al Qaeda, where in Somalia the al

      13   Qaeda members were going to?

      14   A   They were going to Somalia to train people there.

      15   Q   Do you know where in Somalia they were going?

      16   A   It's in the southwest of the Somalia, and another place in

      17   Ogaden in Ethiopia?

      18   Q   Now, when people would come through Nairobi would you meet

      19   many of them at the airport?

      20   A   Sometimes no, sometimes they take taxi and they came to

      21   town.

      22   Q   Did you ever meet them at the airport?

      23   A   I don't remember.  Probably, yes.

      24   Q   And did you ever allow people to stay in your apartment?

      25   A   Sometimes yes.  Most of them normally they stay in hotels.

                                                                    1177

       1   Q   And did there come a time when you got an apartment for

       2   yourself in Nairobi?

       3   A   Yes.

       4   Q   Where?  What section of Nairobi was the apartment located

       5   in?

       6   A   It was in Hurlingham Estates.

       7   Q   When you stayed at the Ramada Hotel who was paying your

       8   expenses at the Ramada Hotel?

       9   A   At that time al Qaeda people, al Qaeda.

      10   Q   Do you recall who in al Qaeda would give you the money for

      11   the hotel?

      12   A   Sometimes Abu Ubaidah for the hotel.  Sometimes Khalid

      13   Foad.

      14   Q   So the Abu al Banshiri was paying for your hotel

      15   sometimes?

      16   A   He paid for my apartment I think two months.

      17   Q   And the other person you mentioned was Khalid Foad?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   Is that the same person who was the emir of the camp in

      20   Afghanistan when you were training there?

      21   A   Yes.

      22   Q   And during the time that you were in Nairobi working with

      23   al Qaeda did you come to learn what al Qaeda's position was

      24   regarding the United Nations participation in Somalia?

      25   A   Well, they were against the presence of the United Nations

                                                                    1178

       1   in Somalia.

       2   Q   What do you recall you were told about why they were

       3   against the presence of the United Nations in Somalia?

       4   A   Well, because one, two, one or two people of al Qaeda told

       5   me that they were source to fight with Somalis against the

       6   United Nations people.

       7   Q   Who were the one or two people who told you this?

       8   A   I'm not quite sure, Abu Mohammed or --

       9   Q   When you talk Abu Mohammed are you talking about the

      10   Egyptian or the American?

      11   A   No, the Egyptian.

      12   Q   Would that be the same person known as Saleh?

      13   A   Yes.

      14   Q   When you talk about Harun are you talking about the person

      15   that you talked about before?

      16   A   Yes.

      17   Q   What do you recall whatever it is that either one of those

      18   told you?

      19   A   Well, he told me that in one of the operations they went

      20   to Mogadishu because they're dark, and there's two people they

      21   could go to Mogadishu because of their color and they were

      22   helping Somalis to fight United Nations people there.

      23   Q   Did he indicate who in the United Nations they were

      24   fighting?

      25   A   Well, Americans and others.

                                                                    1179

       1   Q   Did they indicate whether or not they tried to carry out

       2   any operations themselves?

       3   A   Well, they helped some Somalis they wanted to put some

       4   explosives in a car and to put it inside a compound of United

       5   Nations, and they didn't succeed to do that.

       6   Q   And did they describe any other operation they tried to

       7   carry out?

       8   A   They told me that they were in a house in Mogadishu and

       9   one of the nights one of the helicopters or two they were

      10   shot, they had some shooting in the next house where they were

      11   living, and they were scared, and the next day they left

      12   because they were afraid that they will be caught by the

      13   Americans.

      14   Q   And the house that got shot out was that the house they

      15   were in, or they were next door to that?

      16   A   No, it was in next door.

      17   Q   And do you remember approximately when it was that you

      18   heard this from Abu Mohammed known as Saleh or Harun?

      19   A   Probably '94.  I'm not quite sure.

      20   Q   Now, the person that you talked about Abu al Alkali who

      21   was in the workshop in Hyatabad for electronics, did you ever

      22   see him in Kenya?

      23   A   Yes.

      24   Q   Can you tell the jury where you saw him and as best you

      25   can recall when?

                                                                    1180

       1   A   I don't remember exactly when I saw him in Kenya but he

       2   came to Kenya and he stayed some days and he left to Somalia,

       3   and they came back and he left to Pakistan.

       4   Q   And when he came to Nairobi to go to Somalia did he tell

       5   you what he was going to do?

       6   A   No, he didn't tell me.

       7   Q   Did you ever see any electronic gadgets in Nairobi coming

       8   from overseas?

       9   A   Yes.  One time a Kenyan guy brought flashlights from

      10   Pakistan.

      11   Q   And what do you recall about this flashlight that was

      12   brought from Pakistan?

      13   A   Well, there was something hiding inside the flashlight.

      14   Q   Do you know what was hidden inside the flashlight?

      15   A   Well, I understand that there was decoders and encoders.

      16   Q   And do you know what happened to the flashlight when this

      17   Kenyan person brought it from Pakistan to Nairobi?

      18   A   One of the guys, I don't remember his name, took it to

      19   Somalia.

      20   Q   And do you know, do you remember the name of the person

      21   who took it to Somalia?

      22   A   No, I don't.  No, I don't know.

      23   Q   Now, let me show you what's been marked as Government

      24   Exhibit -- I know I have to bring you the picture.  Let me

      25   just get the number first.

                                                                    1181

       1            Government Exhibit 113 for identification.  And ask

       2   you if you recognize the person depicted in Government Exhibit

       3   113?

       4   A   Yes.

       5   Q   Who is that?

       6   A   Abu Khaledid.

       7   Q   First of all, can you tell the jury what the word el dad

       8   means in English?

       9   A   The officer.

      10   Q   It means Abu Khalid the officer?

      11   A   Yes.

      12   Q   Is he a member of el jihad?

      13   A   I heard about it.

      14   Q   Who told you he was a member of el jihad?

      15            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection, your Honor, foundation.

      16   Q   Who told you?  With whom did you have the discussion?

      17            THE WITNESS:  It was a normal knowledge for

      18   everybody.

      19   Q   Do you recall if you had a particular conversation where a

      20   person who told you that this person was a member of el jihad?

      21   A   I don't remember the name, but it was everybody was

      22   talking about, he's very known for everybody, not just for al

      23   Qaeda people.

      24   Q   Did you ever see him in Nairobi?

      25   A   Yes.

                                                                    1182

       1   Q   Where did you see him?

       2   A   I don't remember but I saw him in Nairobi.

       3   Q   Answer the question yes or no.  Do you know what he was

       4   doing in Nairobi?

       5   A   I don't know.

       6   Q   Is this a fair and accurate picture of the person you knew

       7   at Abu Khalid Adadbid?

       8   A   This one?

       9   Q   Yes?

      10   A   Yes.

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

      12   Exhibit 113 the photograph?

      13            THE COURT:  Receive.

      14            (Government's Exhibit 113 received in evidence)

      15            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.

      16            THE COURT:  I'm receiving it subject to some

      17   connection.

      18            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, Judge.

      19   Q   Do you know if Marwan was ever in Nairobi or Somalia?

      20   A   Yes.

      21   Q   How did you learn whether Marwan was in Nairobi or

      22   Somalia?

      23   A   From the people that are going and coming from Somalia.

      24   Q   What would you talk to people about when you met them, the

      25   al Qaeda people going to and from Somalia?

                                                                    1183

       1   A   We talk about many things.  First of all, I asked about

       2   people there, and we ask about, we were friend and we ask

       3   about each others, and we send greetings.

       4   Q   And were you told where Marwan was?

       5   A   Yeah, he was in Somalia.

       6   Q   Do you know what part of Somalia he was in?

       7   A   Southwest.

       8   Q   And do you know who he was with?

       9   A   I'm sorry, southeast.

      10   Q   Do you know was he with a particular group of people when

      11   you learn he was in southeast Somalia?

      12   A   He was with but Abu Islam Salin al Surir, Usama Bin Laden

      13   and others.

      14   Q   Okay.  So the three names you mentioned, Abu Islam, al

      15   Surur, the person you also say is known Aside?

      16   A   Yes.

      17   Q   The Abu Mohammed el Masry,the person you also mentioned

      18   known as Saleh?

      19   A   Yes.

      20   Q   You also mentioned Safir Alada?

      21   A   Yes.

      22   Q   Now, during the time that you were in Nairobi, did you

      23   ever bring money in and out of Kenya in or out of Kenya for al

      24   Qaeda?

      25   A   From Sudan I brought some money to Kenya, yes.

                                                                    1184

       1   Q   Did you do that on one occasion or more than one occasion?

       2   A   I don't exactly remember.  I remember twice.

       3   Q   And what's the most amount of money you brought from the

       4   Sudan to Kenya the largest amount of money you brought in one

       5   trip?

       6   A   It was $10,000 once.

       7   Q   And where did you get the $10,000?

       8   A   They gave it to me from the guest house in Khartoum.

       9   Q   Whose guest house in Khartoum?

      10   A   Al Qaeda guest house.

      11   Q   And how much were you allowed legally to bring out of the

      12   Sudan in cash?

      13   A   I think if you have an account you are allowed to take

      14   five thousand dollar, but to take it out with you.

      15   Q   And you brought $10,000?

      16   A   Yes.

      17   Q   How did you get the $10,000 out of the Sudan if the law

      18   only allows you to take out five thousand?

      19   A   It was with the help of one of the Sudanese securities.

      20   Q   And can you tell us what you did, how you would physically

      21   get out of the Sudan with $10,000 in cash?

      22   A   Well, you go and he take your passport and your tickets

      23   and your bag, and he do all check in, and he don't check your

      24   bag and stuff and he just, he do everything, all check in with

      25   for you, and he just give you the ticket and your passport,

                                                                    1185

       1   and you go in on the airplane.

       2   Q   And once you got to Nairobi do you know where you bought

       3   brought the $10,000?

       4   A   I give it to Abu Ubaidah or Khalid Foad, I don't remember.

       5   Q   Once you were in Nairobi did you ever bring money to

       6   anyone besides Abu Ubaidah or Khalid Foad coming from outside?

       7   A   I brought once a thousand dollars to another guy called

       8   Asif.  It was from Ubaidah al Banshiri.

       9   Q   Asif?

      10   A   Yes.

      11   Q   Who is he?

      12   A   He's the Abu Ubaidah's wife brother.

      13   Q   Was he a member of al Qaeda?

      14   A   No.

      15   Q   Now, during the time that you were in Nairobi you

      16   mentioned that some of your expenses were paid by Khalid al

      17   Foad.  Did you learn whether or not Khalid al Foad was

      18   involved in any business in Nairobi?

      19   A   Yes.  Normally he was preparing to use a company and do

      20   some business in Kenya.

      21   Q   Do you know what the name of the company was Asma Limited?

      22   A   Yes.

      23   Q   Do you know where he got the name Asma Limited?

      24   A   Well, he told me that he has a daughter called Asma.

      25   Q   And do you know what the business was supposed to be

                                                                    1186

       1   involved in once it was registered?

       2   A   It was import export.

       3   Q   And do you know if he had an office for the business?

       4   A   Yes.  We rented an office and, but we didn't start any

       5   business.

       6   Q   And did you have a problem with the office?

       7   A   Yeah.  It was expensive and that's why we didn't have

       8   money and we sell the furniture in the office and we close it.

       9   Q   Did Khalif Foad engage in any other business to make money

      10   while he was in Nairobi besides trying to start this company

      11   called Asma?

      12   A   He tried to start up a small business.  He bought some

      13   cars from Dubai, and but he didn't even sell them.

      14   Q   And you're talking about Dubai in the United Arab

      15   Emirates?

      16   A   Yes.

      17   Q   And who paid for your flight school tuition and your

      18   expenses while you were in Nairobi?

      19   A   Khalid Foad.

      20   Q   Did you know that he was paying for you out of his own

      21   personal funds or out of al Qaeda funds?

      22   A   No, al Qaeda funds.

      23   Q   And when you were in Nairobi who was your boss in al

      24   Qaeda?

      25   A   Apparently, but normally if Abu Ubaidah is there he is the

                                                                    1187

       1   boss but normally dealing with Ubaidah was.

       2   Q   Who is higher boss Abu Ubaidah or Khalid al Foad?

       3   A   Banshiri is the higher.

       4   Q   And during the time that you were in Nairobi were you

       5   familiar with a charity or relief organization known as Mercy

       6   International Relief Organization?

       7   A   Yes.

       8   Q   And were there any al Qaeda people affiliated with the

       9   Mercy International Relief Organization?

      10   A   Let me just.

      11            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      12   A   Yes, the people of al Qaeda they were dealing with the

      13   Mercy International.

      14   Q   Who were those people?  Which al Qaeda people were dealing

      15   with Mercy International?

      16   A   Bin Laden, Mohammad Masry.

      17   Q   Are you talking about the military commander?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   Abu Mohammad, are you talking about Saleh lay again?

      20   A   Yes.

      21   Q   Were there any people inside Mercy International who were

      22   part of al Qaeda in the past or the present?

      23   A   Well, in the past Abu Jamal he was the manager of that

      24   relief agency but he was in the past of al Qaeda.

      25   Q   You said Abu Jamal?

                                                                    1188

       1   A   Yes.

       2   Q   Anyone else in Mercy International who was a member of al

       3   Qaeda in the past or while in Kenya?

       4   A   The accountant of Mercy International, too, he was of al

       5   Qaeda but in the past his name Abu al Kheryemeni.

       6   Q   Did you ever see any al Qaeda members in Kenya who had

       7   identification cards in the Mercy International Relief agency?

       8   A   No.

       9   Q   Did you ever hear whether or not al Qaeda members in

      10   Nairobi obtained identification cards from Mercy International

      11   Relief agency?

      12   A   Yes.

      13   Q   Who did you hear obtained those cards?

      14   A   I heard that Abu Mohammed Amriki and Bin Laden they had

      15   identity card.

      16   Q   The person whose photograph you identified immediately

      17   after lunch, Abu Mohammed Amriki, the American?

      18   A   Yes.

      19   Q   Did there come a time when you saw him in Nairobi, Kenya?

      20   A   Yes.

      21   Q   Can you tell the jury the circumstance under which you saw

      22   Abu Mohammed Amriki in Nairobi Kenya?

      23   A   Well, he came there twice or three times to Kenya.

      24   Q   Why don't you tell us about the first time?

      25   A   The first time he came with other people to my apartment.

                                                                    1189

       1   The other people are Anas al Liby and Hamza al Liby.

       2   Q   Now, was this the first time you had seen Abu Mohammed

       3   Amriki since he had taught you the surveillance class back in

       4   Hyatabad?

       5   A   I think so, yeah.

       6   Q   And was this the same Anas al Liby who was a student in

       7   that surveillance class that you attended?

       8   A   Yes.

       9   Q   And were any other al Qaeda people visiting Nairobi during

      10   the time that Abu Mohammed Amriki, and Ans al Liby and Hamza

      11   al Liby came to visit Nairobi?

      12   A   At that time there was Abu Fad Makee and Abu Hafs Masry

      13   they were in Nairobi too.

      14   Q   Abu Fad Makee and Abu Hafs Masry again the military

      15   commander, the same person?

      16   A   Yes.

      17   Q   Do you recall approximately when it was that these people

      18   were visiting Nairobi?

      19   A   I don't know exactly Abu Hafs what he was doing but Abu

      20   Fadel probably he was in link with for the business.

      21   Q   My question to you was, do you know when it was, year and

      22   if possible season or month that they came to visit you?

      23   A   Probably the end of '94 or early '95.  I don't remember.

      24   Q   Now, did it come time when they came to your apartment in

      25   Hurlingham?

                                                                    1190

       1   A   Yes.

       2   Q   And can you describe to the jury the physical layout of

       3   your apartment in Hurlingham?

       4   A   Well, my apartment was small one, and but when you just

       5   open in the entrance you face on your right side there is the

       6   kitchen.  In front of you there is the small sitting room, and

       7   in your left side there's bathroom and bedroom.

       8   Q   How many bedrooms were in the apartment total?

       9   A   One bedroom and one sitting room, a kitchen and bathroom.

      10   Q   Who lived there?

      11   A   I was living there with another guy called Abdula Meed.

      12   Q   What country was he from?

      13   A   He's a Saudi.

      14   Q   And for how long were Abu Mohammed Amriki, Anas al Liby

      15   and Ham al Liby in Nairobi during that visit approximately?

      16   A   A week.  A week or more.  I don't remember.

      17   Q   And did they spend any time in your apartment?

      18   A   Yes.  He took place in my apartment.

      19   Q   I'm sorry?

      20   A   They took a place in my apartment.

      21   Q   Tell the jury, describe what it is that they did during

      22   time they were in your apartment in Nairobi?

      23   A   Well, they took that sitting room and they closed it with

      24   blankets, closed the windows, and they were using it to

      25   develop pictures and all their stuff of surveillance.

                                                                    1191

       1   Q   Was the room dark?

       2   A   It was dark.  There is no light.  Only red lights that

       3   they are using there.

       4   Q   What equipment did they have in the room?

       5   A   Well, they brought the machine for the pictures.

       6   Developing picture, and the other it's the same as we learn

       7   before.

       8   Q   And besides photography equipment did you see any other

       9   equipment with Abu Mohammed Amriki, Anas al Liby or Hamza al

      10   Liby?

      11   A   He had a computer and cameras.

      12   Q   Do you recall who had the computer?

      13   A   Anas al Liby normally has his computer, yes.

      14   Q   And do you recall who had the cameras?

      15   A   And Hamza al Liby had a camera.

      16   Q   How often would they come to your apartment to develop

      17   pictures during that visit they made to Nairobi?

      18   A   Well, I don't exactly know the time because I have to go

      19   to school everyday in the morning, but they were using my

      20   apartment.  It was open for them.

      21   Q   And what would they do with the equipment at night?

      22   A   The equipment this stays in room.

      23   Q   Did they develop any pictures in your apartment as far as

      24   you could see?

      25   A   Yes, they develop pictures, and they take everything with

                                                                    1192

       1   them in the afternoon.

       2   Q   And did you see any other items?  Did you see any reports

       3   or folders?

       4   A   Yes, I saw folders, but I didn't see.  They were green

       5   folders but I don't know what is inside.

       6   Q   Did you ever see the contents of the folders?

       7   A   No.

       8   Q   Did you ever see what was in the pictures they were

       9   developing?

      10   A   No.

      11   Q   Did you ever get to look at the negatives close enough to

      12   see what was in the negatives?

      13   A   No, I saw negatives but not close enough to know what is

      14   there.

      15   Q   And what did you understand at the time they were doing?

      16   A   Surveillance.

      17            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.

      18            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      19   Q   The Judge said you may answer.

      20   A   It's a surveillance.

      21   Q   Why did you understand they were doing surveillance, what

      22   led you to believe that?

      23   A   Well, it was my instructor and the guy was a student in

      24   the same class with me, so it's normal that I understand what

      25   they are doing.  It's very obvious.

                                                                    1193

       1   Q   What did you understand were the targets of their

       2   surveillance?

       3   A   All different targets.

       4   Q   Did they tell you what the targets were?

       5   A   No, they didn't tell me.

       6   Q   What did you understand were, did you have an

       7   understanding as to what categories of targets they would be

       8   surveilling in Nairobi?

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.  Your Honor could we have a

      10   foundation before --

      11            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      12   Q   At that time was there a discussion of who the enemies of

      13   al Qaeda were?

      14   A   That time --

      15            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection, your Honor.

      16            THE COURT:  No, overruled.

      17   Q   You may answer.

      18            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      19            MR. SCHMIDT:  Discussion with whom?

      20            THE COURT:  Let him answer that question and then the

      21   next question will be to identify with whom.

      22   Q   The question was, did you have an understanding of who al

      23   Qaeda's enemies were at that time?

      24            THE COURT:  The question was, did you have

      25   discussions concerning the enemies of al Qaeda?

                                                                    1194

       1   Q   Did you have discussions with al Qaeda members at that

       2   time or prior to that time as to who the enemies of al Qaeda

       3   were?

       4            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection, your Honor, at that time or

       5   prior to that time.  We're talking about 1991 I guess on?

       6            THE COURT:  We're talking about the period to the end

       7   of '94, '95 when you were in Nairobi, and you had these

       8   visitors.

       9            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

      10   Q   Prior to those visits, did you have any discussions with

      11   al Qaeda members where it was indicated who the enemies of al

      12   Qaeda were at that time?

      13            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection, your Honor.  That's a

      14   different question than your Honor stated.

      15            THE COURT:  Prior to that time is open ended.  There

      16   comes a time the witness has testified in the end of '94 and

      17   '95 when he has this apartment and that he has these visitors.

      18            Now we're asking about discussions held during their

      19   visits.

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Before.  I'm asking the witness his

      21   understanding of who he understood as a member of al Qaeda the

      22   enemies of al Qaeda were prior to that visit.

      23            THE COURT:  During the period, prior to?

      24            MR. FITZGERALD:  From 1993 when he arrives in Nairobi

      25   October, 1993, until the time when these people visited his

                                                                    1195

       1   apartment, did he have discussions with al Qaeda members as to

       2   who the enemies of al Qaeda were at that time.

       3            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I have an objection.  I

       4   haven't objected to the number two or special, I don't know

       5   which one it is.  May we approach on this, your Honor?

       6            THE COURT:  I really think it's taking a lot of time

       7   on something that should not occupy so much time.  Try it

       8   again.

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I still have that

      10   objection.  I think that I would request that we confer on my

      11   objection.

      12            THE COURT:  Excuse us for a moment, ladies and

      13   gentlemen.  Stay where you are.

      14            (Sealed robing room conference. Under separate cover)

      15            (Continued on next page)

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1196

       1            (In open court)

       2   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

       3   Q   Sir, you mentioned that during the time that this

       4   surveillance was being conducted other than the visit, Abu

       5   Fadhl al Makkee was in Nairobi.

       6   A   Right.

       7   Q   Do you know Abu Fadhl al Makkee's true name?

       8   A   I think Medani.

       9   Q   Was there anything unusual about his physical appearance?

      10   A   When he move his legs, it's cut.

      11   Q   Was one of his legs amputated?  Do you know what amputated

      12   means?

      13   A   Yes.

      14   Q   Do you know if he was married?

      15   A   Yes, he is.

      16   Q   Do you know who his wife was, whether she was related to

      17   anyone else?

      18   A   His wife is the daughter of the sister of Usama Bin Laden.

      19   Q   During the time that Abu Mohamed al Amriki, Anas Al Liby,

      20   Hamza Al Liby were in your apartment, did Abu Hafs, the

      21   military commander, ever visit the apartment?

      22   A   Yes, he did.

      23   Q   Do you recall the occasion when he came?

      24   A   He came only for lunch.  I think we had lunch together

      25   there.

                                                                    1197

       1   Q   Who do you recall was present at the lunch?

       2   A   I think all the guys, they were there, plus Abu Khalid el

       3   Masry.

       4   Q   When you say Abu Khalid el Masry, which Abu Khalid are you

       5   talking about?

       6   A   Another one we didn't talk about.

       7   Q   So someone different than the Abu Khalid who is the

       8   officer?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   During the time they were in your apartment, did Abu

      11   Fawwaz ever visit?

      12   A   Yes.

      13   Q   Do you recall who was present when Hamad al Fawwaz

      14   visited?

      15   A   I don't remember.

      16   Q   During the time that you were in Nairobi, were you a

      17   member of the French Cultural Center?

      18   A   Yes, I was.

      19   Q   Were you a member of the British consulate library?

      20   A   Yes.

      21   Q   Did you ever visit the French Cultural Center with any one

      22   of the people who came to visit and was developing pictures in

      23   your apartment?

      24   A   Abu Mohamed al Amriki visited the French Cultural Center

      25   with me.

                                                                    1198

       1   Q   When you went to the French Cultural Center with Abu

       2   Mohamed, did he bring any equipment or cameras or other things

       3   indicating he was doing surveillance?

       4   A   No.

       5   Q   Did you visit the British consulate library with anyone?

       6   A   I don't remember.

       7   Q   Did there come a time when Khalid al Fawwaz was arrested

       8   in Nairobi, Kenya?

       9   A   Yes.

      10   Q   Can you explain to the jury the circumstances which led to

      11   the arrest of Khalid al Fawwaz.

      12   A   Well, it was Ramadan.  I mean the fasting month for

      13   Muslims.  One of the evenings Khalid al Fawwaz came to my

      14   apartment with another guy called Abu Ammar al Suri.

      15   Q   Does that mean he is from Syria?

      16   A   Yes.

      17   Q   You mentioned it was the month of Ramadan.  Do you recall

      18   the year?

      19   A   I am not.  I don't remember.

      20   Q   Was it before or after the persons Abu Mohamed al Amriki,

      21   Anas al Liby and Hamza al Liby were developing photographs

      22   from negatives in your apartment, if you remember?

      23   A   It was after.

      24   Q   What happened when Abu Ammar al Suri and Khalid al Fawwaz

      25   visited your apartment?

                                                                    1199

       1   A   He brought Abu Ammar al Suri to my apartment, saying that

       2   he is leaving, he is traveling to Europe from Kenya, and we

       3   had breakfast together, and Abu Ammar was saying that in the

       4   next day they will go to book for the flight to Europe, to

       5   Spain, but through, I think, Amsterdam or Germany.

       6            In the next day, I went to school and they went to

       7   book the flight.  Now they will explain me how it went.  Abu

       8   Ammar told me how they booked for their flight to Europe.  Abu

       9   Ammar was saying that they went to, whether Lufthansa first or

      10   KLM, one of them, they went there, and he and Khalid Fawwaz

      11   together, and they asked us to book first, to go to book for

      12   Europe, and the lady working in that office, in that agency,

      13   told them that the accountant is not here yet but I think she

      14   took their passport, she made photocopy for his passport.  And

      15   she told him to come back after 2:00, the accountant will be

      16   there.  Abu Ammar was carrying a Danish passport and Khalid

      17   has a beard, and they were talking at the agency in Arabic.  I

      18   think that lady has some suspicions in that idea, that's why

      19   she told them to come back at 2:00.

      20            After that we realized that we had done a mistake.

      21   Then we changed the agency, they went to other one, whether

      22   Lufthansa or KLM, I don't remember.  The other one, they got a

      23   ticket normally, without any problem.  They came in the

      24   afternoon and told me that they had our ticket and he is

      25   leaving, I think through Amsterdam.  When he told me that

                                                                    1200

       1   issue, I told him probably will face some problems.  But he

       2   didn't care.  And it was, I think, 9:00.  Khalid Fawwaz came

       3   and took Abu Ammar al Suri to the airport.  When Abu Ammar al

       4   Suri reached the airport and he is starting making the

       5   check-in, he gave his passport and ticket to that lady so as

       6   to make the check-in, and there is a guy came out from the

       7   office just behind that lady, and he started talking to Abu

       8   Ammar in Danish language, and Abu Ammar couldn't answer him,

       9   and he started speaking English, and he told him how did you

      10   get this passport, and he told him that I am married with a

      11   Danish lady, and he gave him the name of that lady.  The guy

      12   went back, starts to check in the computer if he is really

      13   married to that lady.  He give him a name.  And one of the

      14   other Danish people -- there were two -- they went to the door

      15   of the airport, one of the gates, he told the guy, one of the

      16   security guards, he told him don't let these guys go out from

      17   the airport.  But Khalid Fawwaz, he managed to go out, and he

      18   told to Abu Ammar al Suri, if you can just leave the airport,

      19   I will bring the car in front of the door and I will just

      20   leave.

      21            That's what happened.  Abu Ammar was talking to the

      22   guy, was going to his computer again, until he found a way to

      23   leave.  He found the car of the guy waiting him, and they

      24   left.

      25   Q   A question to make clear.  You said that Abu Ammar had a

                                                                    1201

       1   Danish passport.  Did you understand that to be a real Danish

       2   passport or a fake Danish passport?

       3   A   It was a fake one.

       4   Q   Did you see Abu Ammar after he left the airport?

       5   A   Yes.  I was preparing myself to sleep, it was around

       6   11:00, and I heard a knocking my door, my apartment.  I opened

       7   the door.  I knew that Abu Ammar is coming back.  When I saw

       8   him, I told him why did you come here, why did you not go to

       9   hotel or something.  He told me that Hamad brought me here.

      10   Q   So we are clear, who is Hamad?

      11   A   I said Hamad is Khalid al Fawwaz.

      12   Q   What happened then?

      13   A   The first thing, I went down to the phone, I called Hamad

      14   in his home.  I told him why did you bring this guy here, he

      15   has a problem now, I mean, you create a problem for me.  He

      16   told me don't worry, I check, when he was coming to your

      17   apartment I circled many times, nobody was following me, don't

      18   worry.  He said it's OK.  So he came to my apartment, spend

      19   the night there.

      20            In the morning after the first prayer, after the dawn

      21   prayer, I was there in my apartment with Abdel Hameed, who was

      22   living with me, and there was another guy, Abu Khalid el Masry

      23   or Abu Jihad al Nubi.  He was there in a visit with us.

      24   Q   Is that the person whose photograph you identified earlier

      25   known as Mustafa?

                                                                    1202

       1   A   Yes.

       2   Q   What happened in the morning?

       3   A   In the morning I told to Khalid, Abu Khalid, now we have

       4   the passport, you can go to any hotel to book for you and take

       5   Abu Mohamed with you, we don't need him in this apartment.  He

       6   was scared and said no, I won't take him.

       7   Q   Who said?

       8   A   Mustafa.

       9   Q   Stop and tell us about the conversation that Abdel Hameed

      10   had with you.

      11   A   Abdel Hameed, who was living with me, told me that

      12   yesterday something happened I didn't tell you.  I told him

      13   what happened, he told me that he received a call from Sheik

      14   Bailala yesterday.

      15   Q   Could you explain to the jury who Sheik Bailala is.

      16   A   Sheik Bailala is one of the opposition in Kenya.  He is

      17   living in Mombasa, and when I was in Kenya he is making lot of

      18   problem for the government, demonstrations and so.  That guy,

      19   Sheik Bailala, when he was student he was studying in Saudi

      20   Arabia and he knew Abdel Hameed in Saudi Arabia, knew his

      21   family.  I don't know how he called Saudi Arabia, and he was

      22   asking about Abdel Hameed.  His family told him Abdel Hameed

      23   is in Kenya, he is there, and they gave my apartment phone

      24   number.  That's why he called.  He found Abdel Hameed.  When

      25   he received the call he knew that Sheik Bailala called him.

                                                                    1203

       1   He said OK, thank you, I will call you back.  He doesn't want

       2   to talk on the phone.  That's why his phone was traced later

       3   on.

       4            Anyway, in the morning, what we have done is we took

       5   all things that they can -- I mean phone numbers or whatever

       6   is suspicious in our apartment, we burned everything, because

       7   I was afraid that, for example, next day the photograph of a

       8   bomber will be in all newspapers and if they find him in

       9   apartment they will check in the apartment and they will

      10   create some problems for me.

      11            So I went, next day I went to school normally and I

      12   left behind me Abu Ammar and Abdel Hameed.  On the way back

      13   from the school -- I finished, I think, my course at 5:00.

      14   Then I took, instead of taking the bus from downtown to my

      15   apartment I just walk because I was fasting, just I was

      16   walking until 6:00, then I will just arrive at that time.

      17            When I reached my apartment, I found the neighbor, my

      18   neighbors, they are living just next door, they told me what

      19   happened to your brother, they are talking about Abdel Hameed.

      20   They said what happened, they told me two security people they

      21   came and they took him, and they were just waiting for you,

      22   they have just left now.

      23            So at that time I took my things.  I didn't even get

      24   in the room.  I went down.  I tried to call Khalid Fawwaz to

      25   tell him what happened.  Nobody was answering the phone, and I

                                                                    1204

       1   thought that they caught him too.  From there I went to

       2   another guy called Abu Kheir al Yemeni.

       3   Q   Is that the same Abu Kheir al Yemeni you mentioned was the

       4   accountant for the emergency relief agency before?

       5   A   Yes.

       6   Q   What did you do when you went to see Abu Kheir?

       7   A   I went to him, I told him what happened, and we had

       8   breakfast.  I was fasting.  I had breakfast with him.  I think

       9   after an hour I went out again.  I called Khalid Fawwaz.  I

      10   got him.  I told him what happened.  He already knew the story

      11   because he told me Abdel Hameed called him from the jail or

      12   let somebody call him from the jail, and he told me that what

      13   happened.  He told me don't worry, tomorrow morning we will go

      14   together, Khalid Fawwaz and me, to see what happened to Abdel

      15   Hameed in the police station.

      16   Q   The following morning did you go with Khalid Fawwaz to the

      17   police station?

      18   A   Yes, I went to see Abdel Hameed in Kililishwa police

      19   station.

      20   Q   What happened when you got to the police station?

      21   A   When we got to the police station, I stayed in the car

      22   outside and Khalid Fawwaz went to the police station to ask

      23   about Abdel Hameed.  In the front desk he told him he wants to

      24   talk about Hameed, what's going on for him.  The guy asked

      25   what is your name, and he said my name is Hameed.  At that

                                                                    1205

       1   time he told him we are looking for Hameed.  He took him there

       2   and he started screaming and stuff, and he called one of the

       3   police ladies there, they called me from the car, and they

       4   give me a bunch of papers and things that he has in his

       5   pockets, and they told me to go to see the lawyer and tell him

       6   what happened.

       7   Q   When he said the lawyer, what lawyer was he referring to?

       8   A   He had a lawyer before, the same lawyer who was working on

       9   the registration of the company, of ASMA company.

      10   Q   Do you know the name of the lawyer who was working on the

      11   registration of the company, what his name was?

      12   A   Yes.  He was Mr. Chaudry.

      13   Q   Did you go to see Mr. Chaudry?

      14   A   Yes, I did.  I saw him.

      15   Q   What happened then?

      16   A   I saw Mr. Chaudry and I explained him everything, and

      17   before that when I met Khalid Fawwaz, he told me that Hamad

      18   called him and he told him, he explained him what happened to

      19   Abdel Hameed and Abu Ammar.  The two security men they came to

      20   my apartment, Abu Ammar opened the door for them and they

      21   wanted to talk to him but they don't speak English, so they

      22   took him and they think in the midway they realize, they go

      23   back to the apartment to look for something.  They came back

      24   to the apartment and they were looking for something, they

      25   found Ammar there in the apartment, and he was scared from

                                                                    1206

       1   yesterday, because he fled from the airport, and he was

       2   waiting that somebody was looking for him.  His passport was

       3   there, his photograph was there.  When they told him what are

       4   you doing here, he told them yes, what happened, even though

       5   they didn't know what happened, but he told them.  They took

       6   him, he had another case, because he came to Kenya illegally.

       7   He was sentenced later, I think, for four months.

       8   Q   At this point Abdul Hameed is in jail, Abu Ammar al Suri

       9   is in jail, and Khalid al Fawwaz is in jail, right?

      10   A   Yes.

      11   Q   What happened next?

      12   A   I contacted the lawyer, who told me he is going to see

      13   what he will do, and I contacted another friend called Tawhil.

      14   Q   Do you know what kind of name Tawhil is?  Is it an Arabic

      15   name or something else?

      16   A   Tawhil is a Arabic name, means the taller.

      17   Q   Does Ahmed Tawhil go by any other name?

      18   A   His real name is Ahmed Sheikh Aden.

      19   Q   Ahmed Sheikh Aden.  What happened when you went to see

      20   Ahmed Tawhil?

      21   A   I told him exactly what happened to all those three

      22   people, and he doesn't want to help in the beginning, but he

      23   helped us to find some solution to get out these people from

      24   the jail.  I forget something, but when those security people

      25   came to my apartment, when they were checking there they took

                                                                    1207

       1   my money, took around $1,600, and they took some other Kenyan

       2   money that we kept for food, and they took my passport and my

       3   pupil pass and everything, and they were looking for me too,

       4   because the apartment was on my name.  They wanted to know how

       5   this call came to me.

       6   Q   If I could stop you a moment.  You mentioned a pupil pass.

       7   What is a pupil pass?

       8   A   It's a permit to study in Kenya.  It was for the CMC

       9   flying school.

      10   Q   Does that give you immigration status in Kenya, allowing

      11   you to be in the country?

      12   A   Yes.

      13   Q   What did Ahmed Tawhil do to help the three people who were

      14   in jail?

      15   A   He contacted a friend of his, he is security guy working

      16   with the Kenyan security, and that guy, he went to Abdel

      17   Hameed and Fawwaz to see what happened, what is their problem,

      18   and he even saw Ammar al Suri.

      19   Q   Do you know the name of the guy that Ahmed Tawhil

      20   contacted in the Kenyan security?

      21   A   Yes.

      22   Q   What was his name?

      23   A   I knew only his first name, Ali.

      24   Q   When you say Kenyan security, what do you mean?

      25   A   Intelligence.

                                                                    1208

       1   Q   What happened next?

       2   A   What happened is, I was behind the lawyer and Ahmed

       3   Tawhil, both of them.  The lawyer told me that he saw some

       4   people there and they need some money.

       5   Q   What did he indicate to you they needed the money for?

       6   A   It was clear.  It's a bribe for us to take these people

       7   from the jail.

       8   Q   Did the lawyer tell you how much money was needed to pay

       9   the bribe to get them out of jail?

      10   A   He didn't tell me it's a bribe but he tell me these guys

      11   need money and they need $3,000.

      12   Q   When he talked to you about the $3,000, did you discuss

      13   this with anyone else?

      14   A   Well, the money, I didn't have money but I have to take

      15   the OK from Sudan, because in Nairobi at that time, Khalid

      16   Fawwaz was in jail, can say something, only Abu Ubaidah, in

      17   that period he was in Sudan.  I called and told him what

      18   happened to these guys.  He told me don't think about money,

      19   if there is any problem give them money to take these guys

      20   from jail.

      21   Q   Did you actually pay the $3,000 to the attorney?

      22   A   Yes, I did.

      23   Q   Do you know where you got the $3,000 from?

      24   A   I think it's from, I took it from Abu al Kheir al Yemeni.

      25   Q   What happened after you paid the $3,000 to the attorney?

                                                                    1209

       1   A   I gave him that money.  I don't know what happened, but he

       2   told me that he saw these people and they want to sit with me,

       3   to interrogate me.  After I think 12 days, then I went with

       4   the lawyer to where the Kenyan intelligence are in Niayo

       5   houses it was, I think, in 24th floor.  We met responsible guy

       6   there, and he asked me some questions briefly.  Then he told

       7   me to go with other two, other people to another room, and

       8   they were starting questioning me why did I come to Kenya and

       9   how did I rent that house, and who is Abdel Hamad, how did you

      10   meet that Abu Ammar, who is Khalid Fawwaz -- questions like

      11   this.

      12   Q   Did they ask you anything about the relief agencies, if

      13   you recall?

      14   A   I don't remember.

      15   Q   At the end of the interview, were you arrested or did you

      16   go free?

      17   A   No.  The first day they questioned me and they let me go.

      18   They told me because I was insisting on that money they took

      19   from my apartment, and they told me you can go now to your

      20   apartment and tomorrow come back.  I was awaiting my passport.

      21   I went there.  I found everything was checked in my apartment.

      22   The next day 3:00 I came and they gave me the passport -- I

      23   stayed there from 3 to 5:00 waiting until they gave me my

      24   passport, and at the same time they released Abdel Hameed and

      25   Khalid Fawwaz.

                                                                    1210

       1   Q   So at this point Khalid al Fawwaz was free and Abu Abdel

       2   Hamad was free.  Where was Abu Ammar al Suri, the person with

       3   the fake Danish passport?  Where was he at this point?

       4   A   He was in jail because his case is different than ours.

       5   That's why he was taken to jail.

       6   Q   Did there come a time when Khalid al Fawwaz left Kenya?

       7   A   Yes.  After this incident, not too much, then he left.

       8   Q   Where did he go?

       9   A   He went to Sudan.

      10   Q   Do you know if he went from the Sudan to anyplace else

      11   after that?

      12   A   I know he went to London after that.

      13   Q   Khalid al Fawwaz had been your boss in Nairobi when he was

      14   there?

      15   A   Yes.

      16   Q   Was he ever replaced as your boss when he left?

      17   A   Yes.  When Khalid Fawwaz left, Wadih el Hage came.

      18   Q   Do you know Wadih el Hage?

      19   A   Yes, I know.

      20   Q   I ask you to look around the courtroom, tell us if you

      21   recognize him.

      22   A   Yes, I do.

      23   Q   Can you tell us where he is sitting?

      24   A   He is in front of there.

      25   Q   Can you describe what he is wearing?

                                                                    1211

       1   A   I don't know the color of the jacket but he is --

       2   Q   Do you see a lady with glasses at the end of the table?

       3   Can you tell us where he is sitting in relation to the lady

       4   with glasses.

       5   A   The second one after the lady.

       6            THE COURT:  The record will indicate that the witness

       7   has identified the defendant El Hage, and we will take a

       8   recess at this point.

       9            (Recess)

      10   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

      11   Q   Mr. Kherchtou, please speak slowly and loudly for the

      12   record.  I would like to ask you an additional question about

      13   the time period during which Abu Mohamed al Amriki, Anas al

      14   Liby and Hamza al Liby were in Nairobi and working in your

      15   apartment developing pictures.  Do you recall that time

      16   period?

      17   A   Yes.

      18   Q   Anas al Liby had been in the same surveillance class with

      19   you back in Pakistan, correct?

      20   A   Yes.

      21   Q   Did you ever see Anas al Liby in downtown Nairobi during

      22   that time?

      23   A   Yes, I met him once in Moi Avenue.

      24   Q   Was that in a meeting you had arranged or did you just run

      25   into him?

                                                                    1212

       1   A   No, I was coming, or going to school.

       2   Q   Where were you?

       3   A   It was in Moi Avenue.

       4   Q   Do you recall what part of Moi Avenue you were at when you

       5   saw Anas al Liby?

       6   A   No.  It wasn't far from Hilton Hotel.

       7   Q   And the Hilton Hotel, do you know how far the Hilton Hotel

       8   on Moi Avenue is from the American Embassy on Moi Avenue?

       9   A   I am not quite sure.  Probably 500 meter, something like

      10   that.  I am not quite sure.

      11   Q   When you saw Anas al Liby, was he carrying anything?

      12   A   He was carrying a camera.

      13   Q   Where was the camera?

      14   A   He was carrying on his chest.

      15   Q   Answer my question yes or no.  Did he tell you what he was

      16   doing on Moi Avenue with the camera?

      17   A   No, he didn't tell me.

      18   Q   Just before the break we were talking about Wadih El Hage.

      19   Can you tell us, the apartment you were living in in

      20   Hurlingham, did there come a time when you moved out of that

      21   apartment?

      22   A   Yes.  After that incident, we left all of us that

      23   apartment.

      24   Q   Where did you move to?

      25   A   After that incident, I went to Sudan for vacation.

                                                                    1213

       1   Q   What happened when you came back from the Sudan?

       2   A   I lived in a hotel which was the same first guesthouse

       3   when I came the first time to Kenya.  That guesthouse became a

       4   hotel after that.

       5   Q   Do you recall how long, approximately, you lived in the

       6   hotel?

       7   A   I don't remember any more.

       8   Q   Were there any other al Qaeda members living in the hotel

       9   at that time?

      10   A   I don't remember if somebody else, but Wadih, he was

      11   living with me.

      12   Q   In that same hotel?

      13   A   In the same room.

      14   Q   Same room?

      15   A   Yes.

      16   Q   For how long did you share a room at this hotel?

      17   A   I don't remember.

      18   Q   Did there come a time when you moved again?

      19   A   Yes, when he came there, then he started looking for a

      20   house, and we rented a house.

      21            THE COURT:  Who is the we?

      22            THE WITNESS:  I mean me and Wadih El Hage.

      23   Q   In whose name was the house rented?

      24   A   I don't remember.  I know him, but I forget his name.

      25   Q   Who signed the lease?

                                                                    1214

       1   A   Wadih El Hage.

       2   Q   Where was the house located?

       3   A   It's in Nairobi, but not far from Jomo Kenyatta Airport.

       4   It's 10 kilometers from Nairobi.

       5   Q   Can you describe what the grounds of the house looked

       6   like.

       7   A   It's small villa, I can say, small villa.  It has two

       8   parts.  The main one, he was living there, and there is

       9   another room and bathroom and a small garage after, behind

      10   that house.

      11   Q   Is that all part of one building or are there two separate

      12   buildings?

      13   A   Well, I mean everything inside one mall but the main one

      14   in which Wadih was living and the other one just behind it.

      15   Q   When you and Wadih El Hage lived in the room in the hotel

      16   and then Wadih el Hage rented a house, where did you live

      17   after that point in time?

      18   A   At that time I don't remember exactly because it was the

      19   end of my studying in flying school exams, and I moved to

      20   Wadih El Hage's place, in the back of his house.  I was living

      21   there.

      22   Q   Did there come a time when you saw the person Abu Mohamed

      23   al Amriki in Nairobi again?

      24   A   Yes, he came once again.

      25   Q   Can you describe the circumstances under which you saw Abu

                                                                    1215

       1   Mohamed al Amriki once again.

       2   A   I don't remember exactly when he came there, but he came

       3   and we met each other in the same place, in Wadia's house.

       4   Q   Was this the next time you saw him after he came with Anas

       5   al Liby and Hamza Al Liby to develop pictures?

       6   A   I think this is the second time, yes.

       7   Q   Did you discuss what it was that Abu Mohamed al Amriki was

       8   going to do next?

       9   A   After certain time he told me that Abu Hafs, the

      10   commander, wanted me and Abu Mohamed to go to Senegal.

      11   Q   Did Abu Mohamed al Amriki say why it was that Abu Hafs,

      12   the commander, wanted to send the two of you to Senegal?

      13   A   They needed some surveillers to make surveillance for

      14   French targets there in Senegal.

      15   Q   Did you understand why it was that they wanted to have you

      16   surveil French targets in Senegal?

      17   A   Because France was against the Muslims in Algeria and

      18   Usama Bin Laden said once in one of the meetings that he was

      19   helping Algerians, and in my opinion it was --

      20            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.

      21            THE COURT:  Yes, sustained.

      22   Q   Withhold your opinion.

      23            Where was it that Abu Mohamed al Amriki told you that

      24   Abu Hafs wanted you and Abu Mohamed al Amriki to go to

      25   Senegal?

                                                                    1216

       1   A   In the same place in the back of the house, Wadia's house.

       2   Q   What if anything did you and Abu Mohamed al Amriki do to

       3   prepare to go to Senegal?

       4   A   The first thing he was visiting with me, the French

       5   Cultural Center, he was learning some French, and we bought

       6   some maps and some books about Senegal.

       7   Q   Did you expect to go to Senegal to do surveillance?

       8   A   Yes.

       9   Q   Did you in fact go to Senegal to do surveillance?

      10   A   No.

      11   Q   Tell us why you didn't go.

      12   A   Because after that, Mohamed Amriki received a call from

      13   United States, from a friend of his from here, saying that he

      14   had some problem here and he should come back so as to resolve

      15   these problems.

      16            (Continued on next page)

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1217

       1   Q   Stop there a moment.  You mentioned that a friend in the

       2   United States called Abu Mohamed al Amriki.  Do you know the

       3   friend in the United States who called him?

       4   A   Mohamed told me his name was --

       5            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.

       6            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       7   Q   Answer this question yes or no.  Did Abu Mohamed tell you

       8   the name of the person who had called him from the United

       9   States to give him this message?

      10   A   Yes.

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would now ask for him

      12   to tell us what the name was.

      13            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.

      14            THE COURT:  I am sorry.  Counsel and the reporter.

      15            (In the corridor)

      16            THE COURT:  What is the answer going to be?

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Adam, A-D-A-M, as in Adam and Eve.

      18            THE COURT:  And the relevance is what?

      19            MR. FITZGERALD:  Because the witness will describe

      20   that Wadih calls Ali Mohamed at Wadih el Hage's house to tell

      21   Ali Mohamed that Ali Mohamed has a problem with American

      22   intelligence or security and needs to return to America.  Ali

      23   Mohamed says OK, I will leave Nairobi and Wadih El Hage's

      24   house and go back to America to deal with this problem.  He

      25   then leaves and doesn't come back.  He cancels the Senegal

                                                                    1218

       1   surveillance.

       2            When he goes back to America, December 1994, he is

       3   interviewed by an FBI agent, Ali Mohamed, in regard to the

       4   upcoming trial of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman.  The date of the

       5   interview is December 9, 1994.  The person he knows is Adam

       6   can be corroborated that Adam turns out to be a friend of Ali

       7   Mohamed's wife.  The phone records show a telephone call from

       8   Ali Mohamed or his friend to Wadih El Hage's house in Nairobi,

       9   Kenya, in November '94, prior to the December 9, 1994

      10   interview.

      11            In addition, following the December 9, 1994,

      12   interview, Ali Mohamed is then corresponding by phone with the

      13   FBI agent in New York -- we have the toll records.

      14            THE COURT:  Adam is otherwise identified somehow?

      15            MR. FITZGERALD:  Not yet.

      16            THE COURT:  But will be identified?

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  We hope to identify him as Khalid

      18   Mohamed, a friend of Ali Mohamed's in California.

      19            THE COURT:  And a member of al Qaeda?

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  A member -- associate of Al Jihad,

      21   but not a member of al Qaeda.  The point being, it will

      22   corroborate that he received a phone call in Wadih Hage's

      23   home.  It shows that when Ali Mohamed needs to go back to

      24   America, they contact him at Wadia's house.

      25            THE COURT:  Is this being offered for the truth or

                                                                    1219

       1   that the words were spoken?

       2            MR. FITZGERALD:  Both.

       3            MR. COHN:  Can I ask a question as to curiosity?

       4   This fellow isn't part of the conversation?

       5            MR. FITZGERALD:  Ali Mohamed tells this fellow Adam

       6   called and says you have to go back to America.

       7            MR. COHN:  It is not a conversation between Adam and

       8   Ali Mohamed.

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  The existence of the call may be

      10   relevant.  That can be proved not by hearsay, it can be proved

      11   by the phone records.  I don't know why we are having hearsay

      12   of someone who is not part of the hearsay.

      13            THE COURT:  I don't either.

      14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Ali Mohamed was part of the jihad --

      15   your Honor, if the name Adam is kryptonite, we will move on

      16   from that.

      17            THE COURT:  Let's move on.

      18

      19            (Continued on next page)

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1220

       1            (In open court)

       2   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

       3   Q   Mr. Kherchtou, Abu Mohamed al Amriki told you that someone

       4   had a problem in America that they had to address, correct?

       5   A   Yes.

       6   Q   Who had the problem in America?

       7   A   No.  He told me that he has some problems in America

       8   himself.

       9   Q   Referring to Abu Mohamed al Amriki?

      10   A   Yes.

      11   Q   What did he say he was going to do about it?

      12            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection, your Honor.

      13            THE COURT:  No, overruled.  What did he say to you?

      14   A   He told me that the guy in United States called him and --

      15            THE COURT:  No, no.  Tell us what he told you he was

      16   going to do.

      17   A   He has to come here so as to resolve these problems

      18   himself.

      19   Q   Do you know, first of all, where was Abu Mohamed al Amriki

      20   when he told you about the situation?

      21   A   Where, in the same place in Wadia's house, in the back.

      22   Q   Do you know where he received this call from -- not who

      23   called.  Do you know where he got the phone call from the

      24   person in America?

      25   A   In the phone, in the mobile phone.

                                                                    1221

       1   Q   Mobile phone of who?

       2   A   Of Wadia.

       3   Q   Were you there when he received the call?

       4   A   Yes, I was there.

       5   Q   Did Abu Mohamed Amriki leave Kenya after that point?

       6   A   Yes, he left Kenya.

       7   Q   And did you ever see him after that point?

       8   A   No.

       9            (Continued on next page)

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      20

      21

      22

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      24

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                                                                    1222

       1            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, is this where you wished

       2   to break for the day?

       3            THE COURT:  All right, we are adjourned until

       4   tomorrow at 10:00 a.m.  Have a good evening.  Please remember

       5   about not reading anything about the case.

       6            (Jury excused)

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  The two open issues at the end of

       8   the robing room conference at lunchtime are still open.  I

       9   think there is a disagreement among the defense.  We need to

      10   resolve that before we proceed from here on out.  The

      11   government takes no position as to whether we elicit either of

      12   those two topic areas.

      13            THE COURT:  This is 1 and 5 of the letter we marked

      14   as Court Exhibit A.  Do we have to do this in the robing room?

      15            MR. FITZGERALD:  We probably should, Judge.

      16            MR. COHN:  I thought that was being held till

      17   tomorrow morning.

      18            THE COURT:  So we will do it in the robing room,

      19   after which we will adjourn.

      20            (Pages 1223-1237 sealed)

      21            (Proceedings adjourned until 10:00, Thursday,

      22   February 22, 2001)

      23

      24

      25

                                                                    1238

       1                        INDEX OF EXAMINATION

       2   Witness                    D      X      RD     RX

       3   DANIEL COLEMAN..........1078   1096

       4   L'HOUSSAINE KHERCHTOU...1103

       5                        GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS

       6   Exhibit No.                                     Received

       7    33, 80 and 80T .............................1077

       8    300 ........................................1081

       9    304 through 309 ............................1083

      10    301, 302, 303, and 310-1 through 310-67 ....1085

      11    314 ........................................1087

      12    315, 316 and 317 ...........................1087

      13    310-68 through 310-74 ......................1088

      14    308 ........................................1096

      15    114 ........................................1109

      16    102 ........................................1124

      17    119 ........................................1125

      18    110 ........................................1128

      19    250 ........................................1130

      20    109 ........................................1133

      21    112 ........................................1147

      22    403R .......................................1156

      23    117 ........................................1167

      24    116 ........................................1176

      25    113 ........................................1182

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