26 February 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.

This is the transcript of Day 10 of the trial.

See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm

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       1   UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
           SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
       2   ------------------------------x

       3   UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

       4              v.                           S(7) 98 Cr. 1023

       5   USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

       6                  Defendants.

       7   ------------------------------x

       8
                                                   New York, N.Y.
       9                                           February 26, 2001
                                                   9:50 a.m.
      10

      11

      12   Before:

      13                       HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

      14                                           District Judge

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

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       1                            APPEARANCES

       2   MARY JO WHITE
                United States Attorney for the
       3        Southern District of New York
           BY:  PATRICK FITZGERALD
       4        KENNETH KARAS
                PAUL BUTLER
       5        Assistant United States Attorneys

       6
           ANTHONY L. RICCO
       7   EDWARD D. WILFORD
           CARL J. HERMAN
       8        Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh

       9   FREDRICK H. COHN
           DAVID P. BAUGH
      10   LAURA GASIOROWSKI
                Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
      11
           DAVID STERN
      12   DAVID RUHNKE
                Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
      13

      14   SAM A. SCHMIDT
           JOSHUA DRATEL
      15   KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
                Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

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       1            (Trial resumed)

       2            THE COURT:  Are there any matters that require the

       3   court's attention before bringing the witness and the jury?

       4            MR. FITZGERALD:  One very brief matter, on which

       5   there is agreement.  Mr. Schmidt wanted a picture of the

       6   witness al-Fadl to use to cross-examine this witness.  I have

       7   provided him one on the understanding that if it is offered as

       8   an exhibit it will be a sealed exhibit so his picture is not

       9   in the public domain.

      10            THE COURT:  Very well.

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  I would also wish to put in this

      12   transcript, which will take two minutes, and then we will be

      13   ready for cross-examination.

      14            THE COURT:  Very well.  Bring in the witness and

      15   bring in the jury.

      16    L'HOUSSAINE KHERCHTOU, resumed.

      17            (Jury present)

      18            THE COURT:  Good morning.

      19            JURORS:  Good morning.

      20            THE COURT:  Mr. Fitzgerald.

      21            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you, your Honor.

      22

      23            (Continued on next page)

      24

      25

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                                 Kherchtou - direct

       1   DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

       2   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

       3   Q.  Mr. Kherchtou, I have placed before you two transcripts,

       4   marked 201A-T and 217B-T.

       5   A.  Yes, sir.

       6   Q.  Have you reviewed those transcripts and translations and

       7   compared them with tape recordings that you listened to at the

       8   same time?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Are those two transcripts fair and accurate

      11   transcriptions, in other words, writings, of what was said in

      12   the phone conversations, including translations from Arabic to

      13   English?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Were the voices as identified on the transcripts, are

      16   those voices accurately identified as to who is speaking?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you, your Honor.  I have

      19   nothing further.

      20            THE COURT:  Very well.  We will proceed with

      21   cross-examination.  Mr. Schmidt.

      22   CROSS-EXAMINATION

      23   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

      24   Q.  Good morning, Mr. Kherchtou.  Is that how you pronounce

      25   your name?

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       1   A.  Yes.  Good morning.

       2   Q.  What year was it that you first went to Afghanistan?

       3   A.  It was in 1991.

       4   Q.  And you remained in Afghanistan until some point in 1993,

       5   is that correct?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  Did you travel outside of Afghanistan or Pakistan during

       8   the period from 1991 to 1993 when you left ultimately to go to

       9   Nairobi?

      10   A.  Yes, I went to Saudi Arabia.

      11   Q.  Was that for a hajj?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Did you go with other members of the group on the hajj?

      14   A.  Well, I went by myself but there was a guy, he wasn't from

      15   al Qaeda.  His name was Dr. Montessur.  He was an Egyptian.

      16   Q.  Was he a member of an Egyptian group?

      17   A.  No, he was a doctor working with al Qaeda guesthouse.

      18   Q.  He was a doctor, a medical doctor from Egypt?

      19   A.  Yes, he is a medical doctor, yes.

      20   Q.  He was treating members of al Qaeda and other groups in

      21   Afghanistan?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Were there many people in Afghanistan who were not members

      24   of al Qaeda?

      25   A.  Yes, many.

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       1   Q.  Many of these people working in roles, like as doctors,

       2   nurse, and helpers?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  You told us that when you arrived in Pakistan, I think it

       5   was, at one of the guesthouses, your papers, your documents,

       6   your travel documents, passport, were taken from you; is that

       7   correct?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  It was your understanding that was for safekeeping?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Because you were ultimately going to go into Afghanistan

      12   and participate in a war, at the time against the Afghani

      13   Communists, right?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  After you left Afghanistan and Pakistan, were your papers

      16   returned to you?

      17   A.  At what time you are talking about?

      18   Q.  Excuse me?

      19   A.  They were given to me when I moved from Bait al Ansar to

      20   Bait al Salaam.  And they were given to me again at the end

      21   when I was traveling.

      22   Q.  When you were at the front or in the camps, did you get

      23   regular time off to visit your wife?

      24   A.  Yes, in the camp, yes.

      25   Q.  Was that important to you, to be able to spend time with

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       1   your wife periodically?

       2   A.  Yes, I think so.

       3   Q.  Is that a religious duty?

       4   A.  It is.

       5   Q.  In some point in 19 -- withdrawn.

       6            When you were in Afghanistan, did you meet people who

       7   had come to Afghanistan to assist the Afghanis in the early or

       8   mid-1980's?

       9   A.  I met many people but I don't know exactly when they came

      10   there.

      11   Q.  Did it become known to you that some of the people -- he's

      12   been here or he's come back from 1983 or he's been here from

      13   the very beginning, something of that nature?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  There were a number of people, I am sure a minority, who

      16   fit that description, is that right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  People who did come early on in the Afghan freedom battle

      19   against the Russians were treated with a little bit more

      20   respect because they came so early on.

      21   A.  Yes, you are right.

      22   Q.  For somebody to do that, that alone would give a degree of

      23   trust to that person if that person came in the early 1980's

      24   and stayed the whole time, or came back and forth to help the

      25   cause, is that right?

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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  Before you went to Nairobi did you make a stop in the

       3   Sudan?

       4   A.  No.

       5   Q.  Did your wife travel from Pakistan to the Sudan before you

       6   went to Nairobi or after you went to Nairobi?

       7   A.  What happened is, I went after my wife in pilgrimage in

       8   Saudi Arabia.  Then from Saudi Arabia I went back to Pakistan.

       9   She traveled from Saudi Arabia to Sudan.  Then when I went

      10   back to Kenya, I had 20 days to wait for the immigration

      11   permit to be issued.  Then I went to Sudan and found my wife

      12   already there.

      13   Q.  So first you actually physically went to Kenya?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  And filed papers in Kenya?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  How many days were you there before you went to the Sudan?

      18   A.  I don't remember.  Probably a week.

      19   Q.  Do you recall the first time that you went to Nairobi, is

      20   it fair to say that that was approximately October of 1993?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  It was your understanding that you were going to Kenya to

      23   learn to be a pilot, is that right?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  You had no objections to that because that's a good skill

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       1   to learn, isn't it?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  Your understanding was that Mr. Bin Laden wanted you to be

       4   available to not only fly an airplane if he wanted to travel

       5   but also for crop dusting for the farming companies, is that

       6   right?

       7   A.  I didn't get your question, please.

       8   Q.  It was your understanding that once you became a pilot you

       9   would be doing flying, perhaps Mr. Bin Laden around?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  And doing crop dusting for the farming companies.

      12   A.  Excuse me.  Your microphone --

      13   Q.  You would be doing crop dusting for the farms owned by

      14   Mr. Bin Laden and his companies, is that right?

      15   A.  The crop dusting came very later after that, when we want

      16   back to Sudan, they wanted to have somebody who has already

      17   the license and he can fly crop dusting.

      18   Q.  So when you first came to Nairobi, it was just to fly

      19   Mr. Bin Laden's personal plane, but then later on it was

      20   expanded to include crop dusting of the farms.

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  As you told us, there was a religious obligation for you

      23   to regularly visit with your wife, is that correct?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  And also, by the time that your wife was in the Sudan did

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       1   you have any children?

       2   A.  Yes, I had one, yes.

       3   Q.  It was also a religious obligation to spend time with your

       4   children as well.

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  And you took that quite seriously, didn't you?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  So after spending approximately two months in Nairobi

       9   studying, you went back and spent a month in the Sudan with

      10   your family.  Would that be accurate?

      11   A.  No, it is not accurate.  It wasn't like that.  Normally,

      12   if you talk about religious, if you stay somewhere far from

      13   your wife, you should stay at least four months, then you go

      14   back to visit her.  But in Nairobi when I was there, it wasn't

      15   exactly two months and then another month in Sudan.  Probably

      16   if I stayed three months I can get two weeks or three weeks I

      17   go to Sudan, and so on.

      18   Q.  This was quite a while ago, right?

      19   A.  Excuse me.

      20   Q.  This occurred quite a while ago, your travel back and

      21   forth to Sudan?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  So you are doing your best to remember back that far, is

      24   that right?

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1            (Pause)

       2            MR. SCHMIDT:  I apologize.

       3   Q.  Do you recall telling the agents when you were interviewed

       4   the first time that it was your best memory that every two or

       5   three months you would spend in Nairobi you would then spend a

       6   month in the Sudan with your family?  Do you remember telling

       7   that?

       8   A.  No, sir I don't remember, but as I said, it's not exactly

       9   two months and another month in Sudan.

      10   Q.  I understand.  It could be two or three months, a lot

      11   depends on your schedule and classes.

      12   A.  Yes, you are right.

      13   Q.  But the amount of time that you tried to spend in the

      14   Sudan when you went back there would hopefully be a month.

      15   A.  Yes, sometimes.

      16   Q.  Sometimes it might only be two or three weeks but

      17   sometimes it might be four weeks.

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  Obviously you tried to spend as much time with your family

      20   having been away from them for that long.

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Do you remember the letter that you left for Ahmed Sheikh

      23   when you visited in 1998?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Do you remember that the top of the letter, the greetings

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       1   part of the letter read something like in the name of God the

       2   merciful and the compassionate, may peace and God's blessings

       3   be upon you, dear Ahmed Sheikh, Allah -- do you remember that

       4   greetings portion?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  Is that something that is traditional to do from one

       7   Muslim to another Muslim writing a letter?

       8   A.  It depends on the culture of the Muslim, how it is.  If

       9   you are very good can write good things, if not, you can say

      10   in the name of God the merciful --

      11   Q.  In other words, if you are a good letter writer, you would

      12   put like a blessing or something in the letter?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  That is not an al Qaeda thing, that is simply being a good

      15   Muslim in writing to another Muslim?

      16   A.  Yes.  Many people they can write more than that thing if

      17   they are not from al Qaeda.

      18   Q.  When you were traveling back and forth from Nairobi to the

      19   Sudan, when you were in the Sudan were you working then?

      20   A.  No.

      21   Q.  You had the opportunity to spend time with your family and

      22   time with others that you knew without having to worry about

      23   working in a position.

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  So during that time you had a lot of free time to find out

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       1   what was going on with the people in the Sudan.

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  You spent that time not just being close to your family,

       4   your wife and -- you had one child then or did you have a

       5   second?

       6   A.  Excuse me.

       7   Q.  How many children did you have in, say, 1993 and 1994?

       8   A.  In '94 I had only one.

       9   Q.  You spent time with your family but you also spent time

      10   catching up with all the information of things that went on in

      11   the Sudan with people that you knew, is that right?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  When you were in Nairobi, you knew Hamad, also known as

      14   Khalid al Fawwaz, is that correct?

      15   A.  Yes, I knew Hamad.

      16   Q.  Did he live with you in the apartment?

      17   A.  No.

      18   Q.  Who lived with you in the apartment?

      19   A.  Abdel Hameed.

      20   Q.  That's a different person than Hamad, right?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  What did Mr. Hameed do?

      23   A.  He is supposed to be assistant of Hamad in the

      24   registration of the company.

      25   Q.  That was Asma Ltd.?

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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  Do you know if Hameed was associated with al Qaeda?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  Do you know if he was associated and had taken bayat or

       5   was just associated?

       6   A.  I know he is from al Qaeda but I didn't know when did he

       7   give bayat to al Qaeda.

       8   Q.  Did you discuss the bayat with Mr. Hameed?

       9   A.  No, I have never discussed the bayat with anybody else.

      10   Q.  Did you see Hamad on a fairly regular basis when you were

      11   in Nairobi?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Did he also keep you up with information on what was

      14   occurring in the Sudan and with Usama Bin Laden?

      15   A.  Not necessarily.

      16   Q.  Did you discuss what was going on when you would come back

      17   from the Sudan?

      18   A.  Probably, yes.

      19   Q.  Did Hamad travel from Nairobi to the Sudan at times as

      20   well?

      21   A.  I don't remember.  I don't think so.

      22   Q.  Did he travel outside of Kenya, if you remember?

      23   A.  I don't remember.

      24   Q.  When you came back to Sudan in 1995 -- withdrawn.

      25            You went and stayed in Sudan at some period of time

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       1   in 1995, is that correct?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  At that time you started working in Sudan, in Khartoum, is

       4   that right?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  And I think that at one point that you said that you

       7   started working at the tannery, that you stopped working

       8   there, is that right?

       9   A.  Yes.  I started working in Wadi Al Aqiq company.

      10   Q.  Who was running that company at that time?

      11   A.  Excuse me.

      12   Q.  Who was running Wadi Al Aqiq at the time you started

      13   working there?

      14   A.  Who was running?

      15   Q.  Yes.

      16   A.  There was sometimes Abu Fadhl al Makkee, sometimes Sheik

      17   Jihad el Masri and later Abu Salaama.

      18   Q.  You were sent over to the tannery from Wadi Al Aqiq to

      19   work there, is that correct?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And you were required to take a test, is that right?

      22   A.  Yes, but it wasn't a test.  I haven't sit for any test.

      23   Q.  Wasn't there some type of test that you were required to

      24   take?

      25   A.  Yes.  They told me after that that they were looking at

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       1   that or something.  There was something going on, but there

       2   was nothing written, nothing some questions, nothing.

       3   Q.  What were you doing at the tannery when you were working

       4   there?

       5   A.  We went only for some days to the commercial section with

       6   two guys, Abu Ahmed Sarudi and another guy from Oman.  And we

       7   stayed there sometimes.  Then after a while they told us that

       8   there is no work.

       9   Q.  After that, did you obtain employment with Abu Ibrahim?

      10   A.  No.

      11   Q.  Where did you go from the tannery?

      12   A.  I stayed in my home.  I stayed home.  I didn't work.

      13   Q.  Where was your next job?

      14   A.  It was after a while, after Bin Laden left and al Qaeda

      15   left, then I got another job with Kaswah company.

      16   Q.  K-A-S-W-A-H?

      17   A.  Kaswah.

      18   Q.  Who ran Kaswah?

      19   A.  Abdouh Abdallah al Yemeni.

      20   Q.  He was a businessman?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  He was basically in an import/export company?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  So they dealt with lots of different commodities?

      25   A.  Different what?

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       1   Q.  Commodities, goods?  Different kinds of goods?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  Whatever would be profitable to either bring into the

       4   Sudan to sell for a profit or to export from Sudan to another

       5   country for profit, is that right?

       6   A.  Yes, right.

       7   Q.  When you were with working for Abu Abdallah, you were just

       8   doing business, is that right?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Based on what you could see, all that Mr. Abu Abdallah al

      11   Yemeni was doing was business, is that right?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  There were times that you saw correspondence either to or

      14   from Wadih El Hage, from or to Abu Abdallah al Yemeni, is that

      15   right?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  In fact, some of it was even addressed to you concerning

      18   different goods and commodities, is that right?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Some of the goods and commodities were hides?

      21   A.  Hides?

      22   Q.  Animal hides?

      23   A.  Leather?

      24   Q.  Yes, leather?

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1   Q.  Sugar?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  Seeds?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Do you remember any other ones as well?

       6   A.  Tanzanite and (through interpreter) precious stones.

       7   Q.  And there were times where there were attempts for Mr. Abu

       8   Abdallah to be a middleman for some large deals that

       9   unfortunately didn't happen, is that correct?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  By the way, when you were in the Sudan both visiting and

      12   immediately after your return, were there any Sudanese

      13   intelligence officers that regularly worked between Bin Laden

      14   and the government of the Sudan, like a liaison?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  Do you know the names of those individuals?

      17   A.  I know the names of the guy who was taking me myself to

      18   the airport sometimes.

      19   Q.  Who is that?

      20   A.  Abdul Hallek.

      21   Q.  These were Sudanese intelligence, is that correct?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  When you were traveling, it was a Sudanese intelligence

      24   officer that would see you from basically Khartoum to the

      25   airport to make sure that you are actually leaving the

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       1   country, is that correct?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  Because the Sudanese intelligence kept very close watch

       4   over Bin Laden and Bin Laden's employees and members, is that

       5   right?

       6   A.  It's not every day.  Sometimes you can travel by yourself

       7   if you don't have anything, carrying money or something, you

       8   can travel by yourself to the airport and you do the whole

       9   check-out and you go.

      10   Q.  But if there is anything that you are carrying other than

      11   your own personal belongings, the Sudanese intelligence would

      12   be involved.

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  They were monitoring Mr. Bin Laden and the people in

      15   Khartoum.

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to competence as to what

      17   he knows they were doing.

      18            MR. SCHMIDT:  I am sorry?

      19            THE COURT:  The question is his competence to testify

      20   as to what the Sudanese were doing.

      21            MR. SCHMIDT:  I will rephrase the question.

      22            THE COURT:  Yes.

      23   Q.  It was your understanding that the Sudanese were keeping

      24   close track of the activities and Mr. Bin Laden and the people

      25   who worked for Mr. Bin Laden, is that right?

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       1   A.  Sudanese, their role is to take you from your guesthouse

       2   in the morning to the airport and just to make sure you cross

       3   the immigration in the airport.  They don't know what you are

       4   carrying.

       5   Q.  There were a number of people of Egyptian background that

       6   were in the Sudan, is that right?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  And you knew quite a few to have them.

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  You knew that many of the Egyptians who were in the Sudan

      11   were very much afraid of the Egyptian government.

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Even people who were not members of al Qaeda were afraid

      14   of the Egyptian government.

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  For example, Abu Tareq, the person who crashed the

      17   airplane?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  He was Egyptian, is that right?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And you believed that he was not a member of al Qaeda, is

      22   that correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  He actually flew from the Sudan to Nairobi before he went

      25   back to Egypt because he was afraid of letting the Egyptians

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       1   know that he was with Bin Laden.

       2   A.  I don't know when did he flew -- I didn't know if he was

       3   afraid or not.

       4   Q.  Were you aware that religious Egyptians, both al Qaeda

       5   members and non-al Qaeda members, were afraid of imprisonment

       6   and torture from the Egyptian government?

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, 401 and competence.

       8            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       9   Q.  Did you have conversations with members of Al Qaeda

      10   concerning their fear of the Egyptian government?

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Members of Al Qaeda?

      12            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes.

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Were there times when nonmembers of Al Qaeda were present

      15   during discussions about their fears of the Egyptian

      16   government?

      17   A.  I don't remember if somebody from non-Al Qaeda was staying

      18   with us.  I don't remember.

      19   Q.  Did members of Al Qaeda express the fact that any

      20   apparently religious person traveling to Egypt risked

      21   imprisonment and torture?

      22   A.  Yes.  It was obvious that all people, most of the

      23   Egyptians who were in Afghanistan, if they go back to Egypt

      24   they will be facing tortures.

      25   Q.  It made no difference whether they were Al Qaeda or people

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       1   who were just in Afghanistan for a short period of time, isn't

       2   that correct?

       3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, competence and 401.

       4            THE COURT:  Yes.

       5   Q.  You knew also many Egyptians who were members, you met

       6   many Egyptians who were members of jihad organizations from

       7   Egypt, is that right?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  Was there more than one jihad organization of Egypt that

      10   were in the Sudan when you were there?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  What were those organizations' names?

      13   A.  There is Gamaa Al Jihad.  It means Al Jihad group.  And

      14   Gamaa Islamiya.

      15   Q.  One is often called Egyptian -- EIJ.  Egyptian Islamic

      16   Jihad.

      17   A.  I said Gamaa Jihad and al Gamaa al Islamiya, it means

      18   Egyptian Jihad of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman.

      19   Q.  When we refer to the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, who is the

      20   leader of the group, of that particular group?  Who was the

      21   leader back then?

      22   A.  The leader was Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman.

      23   Q.  When we talk about, what was the other one, Gamaa?

      24   A.  I am talking about Gamaa Islamiya.

      25   Q.  Is there another group simply called shortly like the

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       1   Islamic Group?

       2   A.  I don't know.

       3   Q.  Have you heard of a person named Zawahiri?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Was he a leader of a particular group?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  What particular group was he a leader of?

       8   A.  Al Jihad group.

       9   Q.  Is that the same group that Abdel Rahman was a leader of?

      10   A.  No.

      11   Q.  Two different groups?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Just so we can understand it and use English initials, if

      14   I say IG, which group would that be referring to, with who as

      15   the leader?

      16   A.  Islamic jihad?

      17   Q.  Yes, Islamic Group.

      18   A.  They are all Islamic groups.

      19   Q.  So if I say Gamaat, which group are we talking about?

      20   A.  Gamaa?

      21   Q.  Yes.

      22   A.  It is Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman group.

      23   Q.  That's Gamaa?

      24   A.  Gamaa.

      25   Q.  I think that has been referred to at times as IG.  So the

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       1   Sheik Rahman group we refer to as IG?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  The Zawahiri group we will refer to as Egyptian Islamic

       4   Jihad.  Is that sometimes referred to as that?

       5   A.  The translation I don't know.

       6   Q.  It would be Islamic Jihad, is that correct, from Egypt?

       7   A.  We call it Gamaa Jihad, it means Al Jihad Group of Egypt.

       8   Q.  Al Jihad Group of Egypt.

       9   A.  OK.

      10   Q.  These two groups obviously were not, the leadership was

      11   not able to stay in Egypt, is that right?

      12   A.  Excuse me.

      13   Q.  That leadership was wanted in Egypt.  They would be

      14   arrested and imprisoned and tortured and maybe executed,

      15   right?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, again to competence and

      18   401.

      19            THE COURT:  Sustained.  The answer is stricken.

      20   Q.  Did you know any members of either the Islamic Jihad of

      21   Egypt or the, what we call the IG, Sheik Rahman's group, in

      22   Khartoum?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Could you tell us the names of some of the people that you

      25   knew who belonged to that group, either one of those groups.

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       1   A.  For example, Sheik Faraj el Masry, he is one of the Al

       2   Jihad Group of Himan Zawahiri.

       3   Q.  Was he one of the early people in Afghanistan 1234?

       4   A.  Yes, he went to Afghanistan long time before me.

       5   Q.  Was there a lot of people from the Egyptian groups that

       6   went to Afghanistan early on?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  Who else did you know from Islamic Jihad?

       9   A.  I don't remember their names.

      10   Q.  There were some people that you dealt with that it was

      11   your belief they were not Al Qaeda members, is that correct?

      12   A.  From which country?

      13   Q.  When you were in Sudan, there were a number of people that

      14   you dealt with -- withdrawn.

      15            When you were in the Sudan and sometimes in Nairobi,

      16   there were people that you dealt with that it was your belief

      17   that they were not Al Qaeda members, is that correct?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  Sometimes these people worked for companies owned by Bin

      20   Laden, is that correct?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Sometimes these people might have assisted people who were

      23   Al Qaeda members, is that correct?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Some of them might have been borrowed from groups like the

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       1   Egyptian jihad of Egypt.

       2            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to the form, the word

       3   borrow.

       4            THE COURT:  Yes.

       5   Q.  Sometimes people who were not Al Qaeda but were members of

       6   Egyptian Jihad of Egypt do some training of members of Al

       7   Qaeda.

       8   A.  In Sudan?

       9   Q.  In Sudan and even in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

      10   A.  In Sudan I have never seen some trainings.

      11   Q.  In Afghanistan or Pakistan where sometimes the trainer was

      12   a person who was Egyptian jihad, not Al Qaeda, but was used as

      13   a trainer.

      14   A.  Sometimes, yes.

      15   Q.  There were also some people that you knew who you had no

      16   idea whether they were or were not Al Qaeda, is that right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  For example, Abu Hajer, he was one of the what we call old

      19   timers from Afghanistan, who went to Afghanistan early on, is

      20   that right?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  You saw him being involved in Mr. Bin Laden's businesses

      23   in the Sudan, is that correct?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  You never saw him do any training or anything like that,

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       1   did you?

       2   A.  No.

       3   Q.  He was a person who had great respect of Mr. Bin Laden and

       4   others who were in Al Qaeda, is that correct?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  But you could not say that he actually was a bayat member

       7   of Al Qaeda, could you?

       8   A.  No.

       9   Q.  There were people like Ahmed Sheikh in Nairobi.

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  He was somebody who was friends with a number of people

      12   that were Al Qaeda, is that right?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  He was somebody that helped in some ways, assisted some of

      15   those people in Nairobi, is that right?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  You described on direct examination because he lived in

      18   Nairobi for a long time, he was able to assist with the legal

      19   problems of members of Al Qaeda, is that right?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  You are fairly confident that he is not a member of Al

      22   Qaeda, is that correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Abu Ibrahim is a person that you knew in the Sudan, is

      25   that correct?

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       1   A.  Which Abu Ibrahim?

       2   Q.  Abu Ibrahim al Iraqi?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  Did you know him in Afghanistan?

       5   A.  I had heard of him, yes.

       6   Q.  But you didn't meet him until you went to Sudan, is that

       7   right?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  He was running al Hijra company for a while, is that

      10   correct?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  That is the construction company?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  The road building company?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  In the road building company, most of the engineers that

      17   worked in that company were Iraqis, weren't they?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  They were not Al Qaeda, they were just al Iraqis?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  There were a lot of Sudanese that worked in al Hijra as

      22   well, doing a lot of the menial jobs, is that correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  In fact, it is your understanding that the Sudanese

      25   government and the Sudanese people were very happy about the

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       1   jobs that Mr. Bin Laden brought in to the Sudan with all of

       2   his companies, is that right?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  Do you know if Abu Ibrahim al Iraqi worked in any other

       5   company?

       6   A.  No.

       7   Q.  You have talked about a person named Ubaidah Al Banshiri.

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  He also was an old timer, wasn't he?  He was in

      10   Afghanistan early on.

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  His relationship with Bin Laden was more of a friend than

      13   it was as an emir and an underling, is that right?

      14   A.  Excuse me.  I didn't get --

      15   Q.  His relationship was like a friend, is that right?

      16   A.  They were more than friends, yes.

      17   Q.  It wasn't, from what you could see, Mr. Bin Laden wasn't

      18   giving orders, directions to Mr. al Banshiri.

      19   A.  I don't know how it goes between them.

      20   Q.  Do you know a person named Abu Khadija al Iraqi?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  All the contacts that you had with Abu Khadija al Iraqi

      23   were business or commercially related, is that correct?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Abu Khadija did a lot of traveling in Europe.

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       1   A.  Yes.  I know he is from Germany.  That's why he is

       2   traveling.

       3   Q.  Were you aware that he had a European passport, from

       4   Germany?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  So he was able to travel freely through Europe, is that

       7   right?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  You are not aware that he is a member of Al Qaeda, is that

      10   correct?

      11   A.  I don't know, but he was all the time, sometimes in the

      12   meetings, sometimes in the guesthouse in Khartoum.

      13   Q.  He was traveling a lot.  Did he have a house in the Sudan?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  The head of one of the agricultural companies, them

      16   March -- do you know the company I am talking about?

      17   A.  Themar al Mubaraka.

      18   Q.  Was that Dr. Mubarak?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Mr. Mubarak, did he run more than one company or did he

      21   run just one company?

      22   A.  I didn't get your question.

      23   Q.  How many companies did he run?  Did he run more than more

      24   than one company or just one?

      25   A.  I think he was running el Mubaraka company, which is a

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       1   branch of Wadi Al Aqiq company.

       2   Q.  Dr. Mubarak is, to your knowledge, not a member of Al

       3   Qaeda, is that correct?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Do you know a person Hamza al Liby?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  He is a Libyan, is that correct?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  To your knowledge, you do not believe that he is Al Qaeda,

      10   is that correct?

      11   A.  He is from Al Qaeda.

      12   Q.  He is Al Qaeda?  What was his role?  What did he do in the

      13   Sudan?

      14   A.  He is working in al Hijra company.

      15   Q.  Do you know a person named Abu Baden el Masry?

      16   A.  Mohamed, yes.

      17   Q.  Do you know if he was Al Qaeda?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19            THE COURT:  Do you know, or he wasn't?

      20            THE WITNESS:  No, I know that he was in Al Qaeda

      21   group.

      22   Q.  Did you talk with him being in Al Qaeda?

      23   A.  No, it was obvious.  You can't say to a member who is

      24   working with you in the same company are you from this company

      25   or not.  I mean, the question, you can talk about all issues

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       1   about Al Qaeda among us, discussing whatever.

       2   Q.  What about, there were a number of black Americans who

       3   were in Khartoum in those years, is that correct?

       4   A.  Americans?

       5   Q.  Some black Americans?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  One of them was Abu Malek?

       8   A.  No, he wasn't in Khartoum.

       9   Q.  He was not in Khartoum?

      10   A.  I don't know him.

      11   Q.  Was he in Afghanistan or Pakistan?

      12   A.  I knew a guy called Abdouh Malek, an American, but he was

      13   in Pakistan and since then -- he didn't visit Sudan.

      14   Q.  Was he Al Qaeda?

      15   A.  I believe so.

      16   Q.  But you are not sure?

      17   A.  No.

      18   Q.  In fact, you told the agents when they asked you about Abu

      19   Malek that you did not know whether he was an Al Qaeda member.

      20   A.  Abu Malek or Abdou Malek?

      21   Q.  I guess there might be two people.  There is an Abu Malek?

      22   A.  Abu Malek, I don't know him.

      23   Q.  There is an Abdou Malek?

      24   A.  Abdou Malek yes.

      25   Q.  Did you tell the government when you first were talking

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       1   about different people who were members of the Al Qaeda, who

       2   you did not think were members of Al Qaeda, who you did not

       3   know were members of Al Qaeda, you said to the government that

       4   you did not whether Abdou Malek was a member of Al Qaeda, is

       5   that correct?

       6   A.  I don't remember that.  If I said, that is correct.

       7   Q.  So you don't know if he was, is that correct?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  There are a lot of -- when you were in Afghanistan there

      10   were a number of Algerians who were in Afghanistan and

      11   Pakistan, is that correct?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  They basically stayed in their own guesthouse, is that

      14   right?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  And they basically stayed together, is that correct?

      17   A.  What do you mean by together?

      18   Q.  They hung around in their group mostly.  Not that they

      19   didn't mix with other people but they mostly hung around with

      20   their group of Algerians.

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Based on your knowledge, that of those Algerians, those

      23   Algerians did not train with Usama Bin Laden or Al Qaeda, is

      24   that correct?

      25   A.  There is a group -- al Farouq camp, for example, everybody

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       1   can come from different nationalities.  They can come and be

       2   trained in al Farouq camp.  But for Algerians, at certain

       3   times there came a group of Algerians, purely Algerians.  They

       4   came, they were trained in Khalid Ibn Walid camp.

       5   Q.  They were trained separately?

       6   A.  Excuse me.

       7   Q.  They were separate from other groups?

       8   A.  Yes, they were separate, yes.

       9   Q.  Do you know a person named Abu Salaama?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  You don't know if Abu Salaama is a member of Al Qaeda, is

      12   that correct?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Abu Salaama worked at Wadi Al Aqiq, is that correct?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  He also worked at the Khartoum tannery, is that correct?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  Did you know a person named Abu Hazim?

      19            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt, how much longer are you

      20   going to go along this path?  I am just wondering whether it

      21   couldn't be expedited by simply giving the witness a list of

      22   names and asking him in one fell swoop to identify which he

      23   knows to be Al Qaeda members and which he does not know.

      24            MR. SCHMIDT:  I am trying to get other information

      25   about these individuals as well, your Honor.

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       1            THE COURT:  If you would pick up the pace I am sure

       2   it would be appreciated.

       3   Q.  Do you know a person named Abu Hazim?

       4   A.  Hazim?  No.

       5   Q.  Do you know a person named Abu Hazim who was a member of

       6   the Libyan Fighting Group?

       7   A.  Hazim?

       8   Q.  H-A-Z-I-M.

       9   A.  No.

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  May I have a moment, your Honor?

      11            THE COURT:  Yes.

      12            MR. SCHMIDT:  Thank you.

      13   Q.  Abu Hazem.

      14   A.  Hazem?

      15   Q.  Yes.

      16   A.  No.

      17   Q.  Hazem?

      18   A.  Hazem is a Palestinian name, so Libyans do not use it.

      19   Q.  I am trying to say Abu H-A-Z, I guess E-M, a person that

      20   you told the government that you knew was a Libyan member of

      21   the Libyan Fighting Group and was not an Al Qaeda member.

      22   Does that refresh your recollection?

      23   A.  No.

      24            (Continued on next page)

      25

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       1   Q.  Now, there is a company called the Kasalla facility, is

       2   that correct?

       3   A.  Kasalla is a city in the Sudan, yes.

       4   Q.  There is agricultural facility there that is owned by

       5   Mr. Bin Laden; is that correct?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  And they did experiments concerning hybrids for

       8   agricultural products like corn; is that right?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  That's run by a Abu Muath; is that correct?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  He's a Palestinian, is that right?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  He's not a member of al Qaeda, isn't that correct?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  Now, do you know an Abu Daud, D-A-U-D, a person who fought

      17   in Afghanistan?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  Now, he was often seen in Khartoum doing business with

      20   people, isn't that right?

      21   A.  Well, he was visiting Sudan only.

      22   Q.  He's not a member of al Qaeda; is that correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  There is a, there are two people named Mak Daud?

      25   A.  Mak Daud, yes.

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       1   Q.  The Egyptian one, is that correct, he's a member, he's not

       2   a member of al Qaeda, is he?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  He is or is not?

       5   A.  No, he's not.

       6   Q.  He's a member of the Egyptian jihad, is that correct?

       7   A.  I'm not quite sure.

       8   Q.  Do you recall telling the government back when they were

       9   asking you all these names and that you indicated that Maqdad

      10   was likely a member of the Egyptian jihad?

      11   A.  Yeah, because he all the time with Egyptians so.

      12   Q.  Now, Abu Ismal he worked at the GASH project in Sudan for

      13   Mr. Bin Laden, is that correct?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Was he an al Qaeda member?

      16   A.  No.

      17   Q.  Abu Sara worked at Wadih ak Kish; is that correct?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  He was a member of the Libyan group and not al Qaeda; is

      20   that correct?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Abdel Kadim?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  He's someone that you did business with, is that right?

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1   Q.  He's also not al Qaeda; is that correct?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  But he knows just about everybody there, doesn't he?

       4   A.  Not everybody, but.

       5   Q.  Lots of people?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  Do you know a person name Ahmed Hasan?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  He's not al Qaeda, is he?

      10   A.  There are two Ahmed Hasans, both Egyptian, one from al

      11   Qaeda, one not.

      12   Q.  And the one that's not from al Qaeda is from the Islamic

      13   jihad Egyptian, right?

      14   A.  From jihad.

      15   Q.  You knew a few Sudanese members of al Qaeda, didn't you?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  And one in particular you knew that Abu Bidala Sudani, is

      18   that correct?

      19   A.  I heard about him, yes.

      20   Q.  Do you recall ever meeting him?

      21   A.  No, I don't think so.

      22   Q.  All the times that you went to the guest houses, the

      23   meetings, the get together when you were in Khartoum is it

      24   your belief that you never saw him, is that correct?

      25   A.  Yes, for the reason because they were talking about that

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       1   he was working with the company he stole money and he left, he

       2   run away, that's why he not in the guest house.

       3   Q.  But prior to him running away, the times that you would

       4   come back for your two, three, four weeks in the Sudan?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  You never ran into him in a guest house or at any of the

       7   meetings.  Is that correct?

       8   A.  I was going to guest house and the meetings.

       9   Q.  But you never met Abu Adan?

      10   A.  No, I don't think so.

      11   Q.  Now, do you know him by any other name?

      12   A.  No.

      13   Q.  Now, I'm going to show you a photograph which is marked

      14   WEH exhibit C.  May I approach the witness, your Honor?

      15            THE COURT:  Yes.

      16   Q.  Do you recognize that photograph?

      17   A.  No.

      18   Q.  Do you ever think you've seen that man before?

      19   A.  No.

      20   Q.  Thank you.  Now, was there a discussion about what should

      21   be done to Al Ubaidah for stealing?

      22   A.  Excuse me?

      23   Q.  Was there discussions among al Qaeda about what to be done

      24   to Mr. Al Ubaida Sudani for stealing money?

      25            (witness consults with interpreter)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  No, there was, there is nothing about this.

       2   Q.  Was there any discussion whatsoever about killing Mr. Abu

       3   Al Ubaida Sudani?

       4   A.  No, you don't kill somebody that stole money.

       5   Q.  Why is that?

       6   A.  It's against Islam, so Abu Al Ubaida would know he had no

       7   fear from his life.

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

       9            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      10   Q.  Or from Mr. Bin Laden?

      11            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      12   Q.  What was your, what was the relationship between the al

      13   Qaeda and Iranians?

      14   A.  Iranians?  They don't like Iranians.

      15   Q.  Why is that?

      16   A.  Because we are Sunni and they are Shiites, and you know I

      17   mean we had many points that's why we don't like them.

      18   Q.  Are there fundamental religious differences between Sunnis

      19   and the Shiites?

      20   A.  Are there fundamentalist what?

      21   Q.  Are there basic differences between the practice of Islam

      22   by Sunni and the practice of Islam by Shiites?

      23   A.  Well, you have some differences.

      24   Q.  And as a result of those differences is there not a big

      25   dispute a split between the Sunni branch Islam and the Shiite

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   branch of Islam, is that correct?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  They both view each other also as heretics?

       4            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  Now, I think you told us earlier that you never saw or

       7   heard of any military training in the Sudan while you were

       8   there; is that correct?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  That was whether you were visiting every few months from

      11   Nairobi or whether you were in the Sudan having left Nairobi,

      12   is that correct?

      13   A.  Yes, when I was there I have never heard something like

      14   that.

      15   Q.  Were you aware of any military training at the soba farm?

      16   A.  No.

      17   Q.  Now, have you been to the soba farm?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  Was that a farm that was open space owned or used by

      20   Mr. Bin Laden?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  And were there, did Mr. Bin Laden go there on the weekends

      23   to ride horses?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Now, the weekends in the Sudan were what day were they?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   A.  What day?

       2   Q.  Yes?

       3   A.  Friday.

       4   Q.  Thursday and Friday?

       5   A.  Normally Friday.  Thursday is a working day.

       6   Q.  Now, there were also people getting together for a soccer

       7   games at the soba?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  Swimming?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Picnicking?

      12   A.  Sometimes, yes.

      13   Q.  Now, al Qaeda and the Egyptian groups have very different

      14   philosophies; is that correct?

      15   A.  I don't know.

      16   Q.  When you first came to Afghanistan you were fighting the

      17   war against at that time it was the Afghani communists being

      18   supported by the Russians, is that correct?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  You went to the front and you fought for them, is that

      21   right?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  And when you joined al Qaeda it was your understanding

      24   that these are the kind of battles that you would participate

      25   in if you were a member of al Qaeda?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  And, in fact, you brought many friends and associates in

       3   battle in Chechnia?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  And southern Bosnia?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  Do you know if any of your fellow al Qaeda members went to

       8   Turjakistan to fight against the old Communist ruler in

       9   Turjakistan?

      10   A.  Turjakistan they went I think in '95.

      11   Q.  And that was what you envisioned the type of fights that

      12   you would participate in as a member of al Qaeda; is that

      13   correct?

      14   A.  I didn't get you.

      15   Q.  The battles in Afghanistan, the battle against Russians in

      16   Chechnia, the battles in Bosnia against the Serbs, the battles

      17   against the Armies of the old Soviet ruler in Turjakistan,

      18   those are the kinds of battles that you thought that you would

      19   participate in as a member of al Qaeda, isn't that correct?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  Now, the Egyptian jihad group mostly kept to themselves in

      22   Sudan; is that right?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  They had their own guest house?

      25   A.  I think so.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   Q.  They had their own farm?

       2   A.  I don't know.

       3   Q.  Now, there was people that you understood who were

       4   recently Egyptian Islam jihad like Mr. Banshiri and Abu Hafs

       5   who were with Bin Laden since the beginning, is that right?

       6   A.  You mean Jalal --

       7   Q.  Abu Hafs and Banshiri were with Mr. Bin Laden from way

       8   back in Afghanistan in the late '70s, '79, '80, '81 something

       9   like that, is that right?

      10   A.  They were there before I we came to Pakistan.

      11   Q.  Were they back then members of the Egyptian jihad?

      12   A.  I don't think so.

      13   Q.  Were they al Qaeda people?

      14   A.  Excuse me?

      15   Q.  Whether they were actually bayat or not, they were with

      16   the al Qaeda people?

      17   A.  Well, they are leaders in the al Qaeda.

      18   Q.  Do you know a person named Kalal?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  That person you understood was arrested in Croatia?

      21   A.  Which Kalal?

      22   Q.  The one who was arrested in Croatia?

      23   A.  I know him.

      24   Q.  And what organization was he part of?

      25   A.  He's from Sheik Rahman.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Q.  He was arrested in Kuwait and the Americans gave him --

       2            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, to 401, Judge.

       3            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       4   Q.  I'll rephrase that question.  Now, it was your

       5   understanding that --

       6            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to 401.

       7   Q.  -- that the Egyptian --

       8            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       9   Q.  Was he with the Sheik Rahman group?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Now, it's your understanding that that group of people

      12   were very angry at the Americans for giving Kalal to the

      13   Egyptian government, isn't that correct?

      14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor, 401.

      15            THE COURT:  We'll take our mid-morning recess at this

      16   point.

      17            (Continued on next page)

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

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       1            (Jury not present)

       2            MR. FITZGERALD:  I have three objections, your Honor.

       3   During my direct examination Mr. Schmidt has tried to hold us

       4   to a very narrow exception to the hearsay rule and

       5   coconspirator statements, but on cross-examination he thinks

       6   he can ask everyone, what do you think.

       7            Number two, to what the organization believes is as

       8   to what happens to a particular person who is directed by

       9   where he was who may have taken him to a country or not

      10   whether that's true or not it is unfairly prejudicial.

      11            Number three, we have sent out much evidence of what

      12   the Egyptian groups have done at the defense requests, they

      13   are killing people, bombing people and strafing tourist buses

      14   in Egypt, and yet all we get is questions about what will

      15   happen to people in al Qaeda if they go foe back to Egypt.

      16            They want to keep out the violence but they want to

      17   present before the jury that the Egyptians, one of the people

      18   playing soccer blew up the Egyptian in Islamabad.  The defense

      19   wants us to keep out anything that's bad that these people did

      20   so the defendants aren't prejudiced, but get in everything

      21   that anyone perceives the foreign government might have done

      22   wrong in trying to link it to the American government.

      23            I think it's improper.  I don't see it goes to the

      24   witness' credibility.  I don't see it goes to the issues in

      25   this case whether or not Wadih el Hage joined the conspiracy

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   to kill Americans, what it is that a different group that he

       2   didn't belong to thinks may have happened to a persona in a

       3   foreign country.

       4            THE COURT:  There is another objection, and that is I

       5   don't find it in the rules of evidence the tediousness is also

       6   a factor.

       7            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, if I may be heard.

       8            THE COURT:  Of course you may.

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  The government has brought out hearsay

      10   on their direct examination concerning plots supposedly by EIJ

      11   members as part of al Qaeda to kill or attack Americans as a

      12   result for revenge purposes.  They brought that out on their

      13   case.  We are counteracting that to show that while there is

      14   discussions there, it's -- may I have a moment?

      15            (Pause)

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I believe that first

      17   came up in the case when Mr. Schmidt cross-examined Mr. Al

      18   Fadl about whether or not he first raised the issue in 1997

      19   that he had first raised in October, 1996.  In any event, the

      20   indictment does charge that Egyptian Islamic jihad was working

      21   with Usama Bin Laden fatwas.  It's not hearsay.  It's part of

      22   this conspiracy.  The jihad group and al Qaeda merged and

      23   worked together for all practical purposes.  That is not

      24   hearsay.  Getting into what happened in Croatia or Egypt and

      25   other things --

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1            MR. SCHMIDT:  What I'm trying to do, your Honor, the

       2   first witness Mr. Jamal tried to make it seem that they were

       3   altogether back in '93, '94, '95.  What I'm trying to do with

       4   this witness is show in truth they were not all together.

       5            THE COURT:  All together in all activities as to all

       6   things, but now assuming that's your objective, have you now

       7   not exhausted that topic?

       8            MR. SCHMIDT:  No, I've not exhausted that topic.  I

       9   have some other issues that Jamal went through that I need to

      10   go with this witness to go through to get the accurate

      11   picture.

      12            THE COURT:  To this witness' knowledge.

      13            MR. SCHMIDT:  This witness' knowledge.

      14            THE COURT:  What is the ultimate point you're trying

      15   to make?

      16            MR. SCHMIDT:  We have no dispute --

      17            THE COURT:  Fill me in on what the actual point that

      18   you're trying to make is what.

      19            MR. SCHMIDT:  That EIJ and Islamic group was a very

      20   separate, has a very separate identity that al Qaeda in '92,

      21   '93, '94, '95, '96 until some point in '98 when they came out

      22   with a joint declaration.  I am trying to show that indeed

      23   that they did have a separate identity that and they were not

      24   mixed like Mr., like Jamal Al Fadl led the jury to believe.

      25   They didn't merge until 19998.  The jury has been left with a

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   misimpression from the government's first witness and that's

       2   what I'm struggling with, your Honor.

       3            THE COURT:  You know, Mr. Schmidt, you're a very

       4   skilled and experienced attorney, and the point as you just

       5   expressed it now it seems to me does not require an hour and

       6   twenty minutes of examination of the witness which only leads

       7   more to obfuscation than it does to clarity.

       8            I'll permit you to question the witness as to his

       9   personal knowledge of these events, but I do suggest that if

      10   you're really trying to communicate something to the jury an

      11   hour of asking a list of names is not a very effective way of

      12   doing it.  We'll take a five minute recess.

      13            (Recess)

      14            (In open court; not jury present)

      15            MR. SCHMIDT:  The stipulation as to the exhibit

      16   should be in the presence of the jury, not in presence of the

      17   witness.

      18            MR. FITZGERALD:  I would ask your Honor to advise the

      19   jury that it was stipulated that the person in the picture

      20   Wadih El Hage Exhibit WEH C is Jamal Al Fadl.  Your Honor, I

      21   would just ask for a instruction separate from the stipulation

      22   that if the witness testifies as to his understanding of what

      23   it is the American government did or didn't do, that's not

      24   offered for the truth of the matter asserted, just for --

      25            THE COURT:  I'll do that when there is a particular

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   question.

       2            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, if it's a discussion of a

       3   quote coconspirator conversation then it can be offered for

       4   the truth.

       5            THE COURT:  If it's a statement in furtherance of the

       6   conspiracy by a coconspirator.

       7            MR. SCHMIDT:  That's correct.

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, with regard to that, if

       9   people are talking about taking action because they perceive

      10   the Americans are wrong, the relevance is that they are taking

      11   action, not the coconspirator statement whether it's true or

      12   not, it's irrelevant.  If they think American did a bad act

      13   that's to state of mind.  This doesn't prove that America did

      14   a bad act.

      15            MR. SCHMIDT:  I have no disagreement with that.

      16            THE COURT:  You marked that photograph WH exhibit C.

      17   Bring the jury in, but not the witness and then the witness.

      18   I'll tell you when to bring in the witness.

      19            (Continued on next page)

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1            (Jury present)

       2            (Witness not present)

       3            THE COURT:  I understand that the parties have

       4   reached a stipulation with respect to exhibit WEHC for

       5   identification which is a photograph shown to this witness.

       6   Will you state the stipulation, please?

       7            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes, your Honor.  It was stipulated

       8   between the government and the defendant Wadih El Hage that

       9   the photograph is of Jamal Ahmed Mohammed Al Fadl.

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  That's right, Judge.

      11            THE COURT:  So stipulated.  All right.  Bring the

      12   witness in, please.

      13            (Witness resumed)

      14   Q.  Mr. Kherchtou, you heard that the Americans gave Talal to

      15   the Egyptian government; is that correct?

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, foundation.

      17            MR. SCHMIDT:  It's not for the truth, your Honor.

      18   It's state of mind.

      19            MR. FITZGERALD:  I'll withdraw the objection.

      20   Instruction as to the state of mind.

      21            THE COURT:  I understand the question that is going

      22   to be asked of what this witness heard or understood, and

      23   understand that that testimony is relevant to this witness'

      24   understanding and this witness' state of mind, and not

      25   evidence of the truth of what it is that he had heard.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1            The law provides that statements made by

       2   coconspirators in furtherance of the conspiracy are

       3   admissible.  In other words, the usual hearsay rules which

       4   would preclude testimony of what other people, not witnesses,

       5   said recognizes an exception and the exception relates to

       6   statements made by coconspirators in furtherance of the

       7   conspiracy, not just casual observations about irrelevant

       8   things.

       9            But we've heard an awful lot of testimony by

      10   witnesses who have said that they were members of al Qaeda and

      11   this is what other members of al Qaeda said, and that

      12   testimony has been received without limitation.  So there is

      13   that distinction between statements made by coconspirators in

      14   furtherance of the conspiracy and other statements which are

      15   being offered simply to show the state of mind of the

      16   listener.  Sometimes the distinction may be obvious, in which

      17   case the attorneys may request or I may on my own impose a

      18   limitation.

      19   Q.  You may answer the request.

      20            THE COURT:  You'd better restate the question.

      21   Q.  Did you understand that Talal was given over by the

      22   American government to the Egyptian government?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Was that information part of a discussion that you ever

      25   had with al Qaeda members?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  Would it be fair to say that al Qaeda did not ever discuss

       3   any type of revenge against the Americans as a result of this

       4   Islamic group member being turned over to the Egyptians?

       5   Would that be a fair statement?

       6            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       7   A.  No.

       8   Q.  That is not a fair statement or it is a fair statement?

       9   Let me rephrase the question.

      10   A.  Okay.

      11   Q.  Was there any discussion that you heard of any revenge by

      12   al Qaeda against the Americans for what happened to Talal of

      13   the Islamic group?

      14   A.  No.

      15   Q.  Now, you also heard that Sheik Rahman the leader of the

      16   Islamic group was arrested in the United States; is that

      17   correct?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And any discussion of revenge for his arrest came from the

      20   Egyptian group, the Islamic group, is that correct?

      21   A.  I didn't hear anything.

      22   Q.  Did you hear anything in al Qaeda about any revenge from

      23   al Qaeda?

      24   A.  No, but the, there was talking that they didn't like the

      25   fact that one of the Islamic scholars were arrested in the

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
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       1   United States.

       2   Q.  They opposed the United States arresting Sheik Rahman?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  Do you recall the first time that you met Mr. El Hage?

       5   A.  Wadih El Hage?

       6   Q.  Yes.

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  Was that in the Sudan?

       9   A.  I don't remember exactly if I met him in Sudan or I was

      10   visiting in the beginning, but I remember very well when he

      11   came the first time to Kenya.

      12   Q.  So you may have heard about Mr. El Hage prior to him

      13   coming to Kenya but you're not sure if you saw him?

      14   A.  Yes, I heard about him, yes.

      15   Q.  Now, you looked at a photograph of Mr. El Hage that the

      16   government showed you with a beard.  Do you remember that?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And do you remember that you had some difficulty saying

      19   for certain whether that was Mr. El Hage or not?

      20   A.  No, I didn't recognize, they gave me a bunch of pictures,

      21   I didn't recognize him, and the second time I think the second

      22   day I recognized him.

      23   Q.  Now, many people when they were in the Sudan dressed and

      24   their facial hair was more in comportment with traditional

      25   Islam look, is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Not all of them.

       2   Q.  But some of them did?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And sometimes it was difficult recognizing somebody who

       5   you saw with a full Islamic beard and maybe an Islamic outfit

       6   when you see them in western clothes and clean shaven?

       7   A.  It is changes.

       8   Q.  There is only one Abu Ahmed that you know of, is that

       9   correct?

      10   A.  Which Abu Ahmed.

      11   Q.  That's and Abu Ahmed who was an Egyptian artillery

      12   specialist that you knew from Afghanistan; is that correct?

      13   A.  There is no artillery specialist.

      14   Q.  The person is also known as Abu Ahmed al Houn?

      15   A.  There is no Abu al Houn.

      16   Q.  Now, what you learned about Mr. El Hage even before

      17   meeting him was that he was a person who was one of the first

      18   ones to come to Afghanistan; is that right?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Now, were you aware that he actually came from the United

      21   States to Afghanistan?

      22   A.  I heard that.

      23   Q.  That was especially among al Qaeda people that somebody

      24   that early on in the Afghani freedom war would come from the

      25   United States?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  No, we had people that came from all over the world.

       2   Q.  Now, so is it fair that you do not know -- withdrawn.

       3            You have no actual knowledge that Mr. El Hage ever

       4   took bayat in al Qaeda, is that correct?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  And it's your understanding that Mr. El Hage was

       7   considered a very trustworthy person., Is that right?

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.  By who?

       9   Q.  By Mr. Bin Laden.

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  And one of the reasons that you're aware of that he was

      12   considered trustworthy person is because of his early

      13   assistance given to the Afghani cause; is that right?

      14   A.  Because he was one of the first people who went to

      15   Afghanistan.

      16   Q.  That was really before, certainly before al Qaeda; is that

      17   correct?

      18   A.  Probably, yes.

      19   Q.  That was before the Services Office opened up in Pakistan?

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to competence, your Honor.

      21            THE COURT:  Restate the question.

      22   Q.  Have you ever heard of the services offices or Makda?

      23   A.  Makda Bakalmak.

      24   Q.  That's also called the Services Office; is that right?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
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       1   Q.  Loosely translated?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  That was set up by Mr. Azzam and Mr. Bin Laden back in

       4   1985, '86, is that right?

       5            THE COURT:  If you know.

       6   A.  No, I don't know.

       7   Q.  You got to know Mr. El Hage fairly well?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  Physically would you consider him a big person or a slim

      10   person?

      11   A.  Well, he's a slim person.

      12   Q.  Were you aware of the birth defect in one of his arms?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Do you recall which arm, the hand he writes with?

      15   A.  I think his left hand writing.

      16   Q.  And the arm that suffers the wither they are from his

      17   birth defect in his right arm?

      18   A.  Right hand.

      19   Q.  Now, there is though a person who may be Lebanese, an

      20   American that actually does have blondish hair.  Do you

      21   remember that person?

      22   A.  No.

      23   Q.  Do you remember a person at the Institute of Technology

      24   that you met who was a Lebanese or Syrian American that had

      25   blonde hair?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  I don't remember.

       2   Q.  Do you recall who was in charge of studies at the

       3   institute?

       4   A.  At which institute, please.

       5   Q.  The Institute of Technology that you went to?  In

       6   Pakistan?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  You believe that that person was a Syrian or a Lebanese

       9   American?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Now, to the best of your knowledge you arrived in Nairobi

      12   sometime around October of 1993; is that right?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  And you stayed there for a short period of time went back

      15   to the Sudan for about 20 days and then came back to Nairobi

      16   is that right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And soon after that is when Abu Hafs and others came in

      19   the airplane from the Sudan?

      20   A.  I wasn't there when he came.  I really told that he came

      21   there, but I wasn't there.

      22   Q.  You weren't present in Nairobi when the airplane was flown

      23   from Khartoum to Nairobi?

      24   A.  It was before I arrived to Nairobi.

      25   Q.  Now, Mr. El Hage arrived -- did Abu Ahmed leave Nairobi

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       1   before Mr. El Hage arrived?

       2   A.  I think so.

       3   Q.  Would it be fair to say that Mr. El Hage arrived some time

       4   in the fall of 1994?

       5   A.  Yes, he came in '94.

       6   Q.  Would it be fair that it was in autumn, the fall?

       7   A.  I don't remember.

       8   Q.  Did Mr. El Hage boss you around?

       9   A.  Excuse me?

      10   Q.  Did he boss you around?  Did he give you orders, go do

      11   this, go do that, go do this?

      12   A.  No.

      13   Q.  You were still taking your flying lessons, is that right?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  And still traveling back to Sudan as often as you could to

      16   stay with your family as often as you could?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And when you went around, you have to share a room with El

      19   Hage for a while, is that correct?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And he treated you as an equal?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  And with respect?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  And together you looked for a house for him and his

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       1   family, is that right?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  And you knew that he had his family in Khartoum that he

       4   was very anxious to bring them over to Nairobi to be together.

       5   Is that right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  And you knew Nairobi much better than he did because you

       8   had been there for a while by the time Mr. El Hage arrived; is

       9   that right?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  You were leading the search for the house?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  And the house has -- withdrawn.  The house has a wall

      14   around the whole piece of property; is that right?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  And that's not uncommon in middle class section of Nairobi

      17   is it?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  It's common, isn't it?  It's common to have that wall

      20   around the home for protection in Nairobi?

      21   A.  Well, Nairobi is a dangerous city.

      22   Q.  Well, if you live in an area where you can afford there

      23   was an area that was sort of in between Nairobi and the

      24   airport you ultimately found out, is that right?

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1   Q.  And the development that really stood alone with many

       2   houses in one area where you turned off the road for the

       3   airport and it was surrounded by empty field?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  And each house there had a wall around the compound?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  That's because Nairobi is a somewhat dangerous city and

       8   for security purposes if you could have a house with that wall

       9   you would want one?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  And within that wall there are actually two buildings?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  One was the building where Mr. El Hage lived with his wife

      14   and many children, is that right?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  And there was a back room that had a separate living area

      17   and a bathroom where you were staying initially?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And to get into that back room you did not have to come

      20   into the main house.  You can get there from the driveway, is

      21   that right?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  How long did you stay there?

      24   A.  Well, I don't remember exactly how long.

      25   Q.  Did you stay in your own apartment for a little while?

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       1   A.  No, I don't understand.

       2   Q.  When did you return to the Sudan in 1995?

       3   A.  Probably the end of '95, yes, or early '96.

       4   Q.  Now, where did you live that whole time?

       5   A.  Where in the Sudan or in Kenya?

       6   Q.  In Kenya.

       7   A.  Well, what happened is exactly when we left and we gave me

       8   him and Hasan together, but when he got that house I moved to

       9   the place with him, and it was time for the exam for flying

      10   course I was taking then I was going to Sudan and came twice.

      11   Once I think when I was doing the exams and another time when

      12   I was renewing the license.

      13   Q.  Was that the only time that you were in Nairobi during

      14   '94, '95 and Mr. El Hage was there?

      15   A.  Yeah.

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      17            THE COURT:  Restate the question.

      18   Q.  Mr. El Hage moved in some time in 1994, is that right?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  And his family joined him, correct?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  And you were in the separate building at his home, right?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Then you took your exam shortly thereafter?

      25   A.  Yeah, I think I don't know exactly when in '95.

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       1   Q.  Early '95?

       2   A.  I don't remember, because when after the exams I went back

       3   to Sudan.  Then I came back after a year start to renew the

       4   license for the pilot.

       5   Q.  So after the exam you basically left Nairobi?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  So the only time that you spent with Mr. El Hage was the

       8   period when he came until the exam?

       9   A.  Yeah, he came, I stayed a while but I don't remember how

      10   long it was.

      11   Q.  Two or three months?

      12   A.  Probably, yes, more.

      13   Q.  Now, you came to renew your license is that in 1995 or

      14   1996?

      15   A.  I don't remember the date.

      16   Q.  Well, did you get your license after the exam?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  How long was that license good for?

      19   A.  One year.  Then I have to renew.

      20   Q.  So it's likely if you received your license sometime in

      21   1995 you came back in 1996?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Now, you told us previously that the person handling the

      24   money in al Qaeda would not give you -- withdrawn.  You told

      25   me that Mr. Bin Laden would not give you money to renew your

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       1   license?

       2   A.  Yes, they refused to give me the money.

       3   Q.  Because al Qaeda didn't have -- withdrawn.  You stated

       4   that money was too tight to spend it on renewing your license,

       5   is that right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  You still came to Nairobi, is that right?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  And you asked Mr. El Hage to help you renew your license,

      10   is that right?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  And even though Mr. Bin Laden said no, Mr. El Hage helped

      13   you with the money?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  He helped you with that even though at that time things

      16   were very poor for Mr. El Hage's economic condition; is that

      17   right?

      18   A.  Repeat the question, please.

      19   Q.  There came a time where the economic conditions for Mr. El

      20   Hage in taking care of his family and himself became

      21   difficult?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  And, in fact, he was trying to make all types of business

      24   deals that he could to try to raise money and help support him

      25   and his family; is that right?

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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  There were a number of times that you actually were

       3   involved in some of the business deals that Mr. El Hage was

       4   trying to accomplish; is that right?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  Now, for example, when you were working for Abu Abdallah

       7   there was a sugar deal that Mr. El Hage was trying to do.  Is

       8   that correct?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  And that was with Mr. Abu Abdallah, is that right?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  That was just a plain straight business deal, is that

      13   right?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  And you were supposed to fax him information concerning

      16   some prices?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  He actually called you in one of his faxes Captain Jamal,

      19   do you remember that?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  Is that a code name or more like a joke?

      22   A.  No, it's my nickname was Jamal at a time and captain

      23   because I had renew my license at that time.

      24   Q.  That had nothing to do with al Qaeda or anything like

      25   that?

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       1   A.  No.

       2   Q.  And Abdul Rakim also tried to be involved in that sugar

       3   transaction, is that right?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  And while you were in Kenya when Mr. El Hage was there did

       6   you say that you never saw him prepare any type of report?

       7   A.  I saw him he had his own computer, and what he's doing is

       8   something he was doing something there.

       9   Q.  He was typing letters and faxes and -- business

      10   situations?

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, competence.

      12            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      13   Q.  Did you ever tell the government that you never saw Mr. El

      14   Hage writing reports?

      15   A.  I don't remember.

      16   Q.  I understand you it's a little while ago and you answered

      17   lots of questions.  Let's see if we can refresh your

      18   recollection.  I'm going to ask you to take a look at what's

      19   been marked 3535-9, page 19, where I made a little block.

      20            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I approach the witness?

      21            THE COURT:  The question isn't what it says there.

      22   the question is whether reading that refreshes your

      23   recollection of a specific event.

      24            Do you understand?  Do you understand what I've just

      25   said?

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       1            THE WITNESS:  No, sir.

       2            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I, your Honor?

       3   Q.  I ask you to look at what's marked over there.  Having

       4   read that does that help you remember whether you told the

       5   government that you never saw Mr. El Hage writing reports?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  It helped you remember that?

       8   A.  Yeah, he didn't write anything in front of me.

       9   Q.  Did the government show you a document that was called the

      10   security report?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  Did you read it?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Having reviewed it was it your belief that the person who

      15   wrote it was Harun?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  And was not Mr. El Hage; is that correct?

      18   A.  I don't remember exactly.

      19   Q.  To your knowledge you were aware that Harun -- withdrawn.

      20   You knew a person name Harun, didn't you?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  And you knew him from Nairobi; is that correct?

      23   A.  Excuse me?

      24   Q.  You knew him from Nairobi, is that correct?

      25   A.  Knew him what?

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       1   Q.  Did you know Harun from Nairobi?

       2   A.  No, from Pakistan Afghanistan.

       3   Q.  Did you ever see him, when was the last time you saw him

       4   in Afghanistan?

       5   A.  Probably '92.

       6   Q.  Did there come a time that you saw him again?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  Where did you see him again?

       9   A.  I saw him in Nairobi.  I saw him in Sudan.

      10   Q.  When did you see him in Nairobi?  How long had you been in

      11   Nairobi before you saw Harun?

      12   A.  For a while.

      13   Q.  Did you become aware that Harun was involved in false

      14   passports or other fraudulent documents?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  Did you ever see Wadih El Hage involved with false

      17   passports?

      18   A.  No.

      19   Q.  There came a time where Mr. El Hage left Nairobi --

      20   withdrawn.  You learned at some point that Mr. El Hage left

      21   Nairobi for the United States; is that correct?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Do you know of any knowledge that anybody was sent over to

      24   take Mr. El Hage's place?

      25   A.  Take over?  Excuse me.

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       1   Q.  Right, do you know if anybody was sent over to replace

       2   Mr. El Hage?

       3            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       4   A.  No, I don't know.

       5   Q.  When you were in Nairobi at Mr. El Hage's, the building

       6   outside Mr. El Hage's home you learned that Mr. El Hage was

       7   trying to register a nongovernmental organization called Help

       8   African People?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  And were you aware of the difficulties that he was having

      11   trying to register this nongovernmental organization?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Did he express his frustration frequently about how

      14   difficult it was?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  Were you aware that eventually it was registered?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And did you become aware that there were certain projects

      19   that Help Africa People was involved in?

      20   A.  No.

      21   Q.  Did you learn about the malaria project with Harun?

      22   A.  Yes.  Excuse me.  There were studies of this project.  You

      23   was talking about studies of his project.

      24   Q.  And was Harun sent to Somalia to do a study of the malaria

      25   project in Somalia?

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       1   A.  I don't remember but they were talking about the project

       2   of malaria.

       3   Q.  And was there also a project concerning irrigation that

       4   they were trying to do?

       5   A.  I don't remember.

       6   Q.  Before funding the malaria project they wanted to have

       7   some type of information about the usefulness of that project,

       8   is that right?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Now, the project was for the area of Somalia just over the

      11   border?

      12            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, competence, your Honor.

      13            THE COURT:  If he knows.

      14   Q.  If you know?

      15            THE COURT:  Ask him whether he knows.

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  Now, you also are aware of a nongovernmental organization

      18   called Mercy International, is that right?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Who was in charge of Mercy International when you first

      21   arrived in Nairobi?  Withdrawn.

      22            Who was the first person that you became aware of as

      23   the head of Mercy International relief organization when you

      24   first arrived in Nairobi?

      25   A.  Abu Jamal Amrik.

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       1   Q.  The Mercy International relief agency had some type of

       2   association with some Bin Laden people, is that right?

       3   A.  They were dealing with some people Bin Laden.

       4   Q.  You're aware that Mr. Bin Laden gave a lot of money to

       5   relief in the Sudan, weren't you?

       6   A.  In Sudan, yes.

       7   Q.  That wasn't a surprise that Mr. Bin Laden would have

       8   contact with relief agencies which he gave money to these

       9   agencies, is that right?

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.

      11            THE COURT:  Sustained.  Form of the question.

      12   Q.  You're aware that Bin Laden gave money to relief agencies?

      13   A.  Yes, in Afghanistan.

      14   Q.  Do you recall discussions of relief at the camps in Bosnia

      15   that was supported by Mr. Bin Laden?

      16   A.  No.

      17   Q.  Now, another person who was involved with Mercy

      18   International relief agency was Ahmed Tik; is that right?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  He ended up taking over and running the agency; is that

      21   right?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  And were you friendly with Ahmed Tik?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Did you see him socially as well as doing business --

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       1   Withdrawn.  Did you see him socially?

       2   A.  Yeah.

       3   Q.  It's your understanding that Mercy International supported

       4   orphanages in Somalia; is that correct?

       5   A.  Refugees?

       6   Q.  Yes.

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  They supported hospitals in Somalia?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  They built mosques in Somalia?

      11   A.  No.  There are different agencies that, you know, some of

      12   them they have mosques.  Some of them they are specialize,

      13   some of them orphans.

      14   Q.  And the school?

      15   A.  Schooling.

      16   Q.  Was it sometimes difficult for you to travel in and out of

      17   Kenya?

      18   A.  No.

      19   Q.  You had a Moroccan passport?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  Now, while you were -- you knew that Mr. El Hage while

      22   applying to register the NGO was also trying to work in the

      23   gem stone industry?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  And in fact there were, he had many books about gems in

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       1   his home, is that right?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  And you had read a number of those books to try to learn

       4   about the gem stone industry as well, right?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  And Mr. El Hage was contacting people that he knew

       7   everywhere trying to see if they were able to sell gem stones

       8   and that they could make a profit together; is that right?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  And do you know that he gave, are you aware that he gave

      11   samples of his gem stones to Abu Haf?

      12   A.  Who?

      13   Q.  The gentleman I think who lived in Queens is it?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  And also to Adelka?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  Who lived in Italy?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And, in fact, they lost the stones and had to pay a

      20   hundred dollars to Mr. El Hage for the lost stones?

      21   A.  They didn't lost the stones.

      22   Q.  They sold?

      23   A.  I don't know what happened there.

      24   Q.  Now, do you know that Mr. El Hage traveled within Africa

      25   concerning the stones.  Is that right?

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       1   A.  In Kenya, yes.

       2   Q.  Did he go to Tanzania?

       3   A.  I think so, yes.

       4   Q.  Did he also send people to stones in Uganda?

       5   A.  I don't remember.

       6   Q.  Do you remember talking about the blue stone a thing call

       7   lapis lazuli stone?

       8   A.  Just about stones, but I don't remember particular name.

       9   Q.  When he was, when you were already back in Sudan part of

      10   communications that you had with Mr. El Hage again was also

      11   about stones?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Trying to sell a stone?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  You also had conversations or faxes concerning ostrich

      16   eyes, you remember ostrich eyes?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  Mr. El Hage found somebody who had an ostrich farm who

      19   wanted to sell the eyes?

      20   A.  Yes.  The meat, yes.

      21   Q.  He was communicating to you and Abu Abdallah in the Sudan?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Now, there was in Kenya Mr. El Hage did not have a beard;

      24   is that correct?

      25   A.  No.

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       1   Q.  Did he ever a beard?

       2   A.  No.

       3   Q.  On direct examination you discussed the arrest of a few

       4   people including Ahmad by Sudanian authorities, do you

       5   remember that?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  And apparently that was because it was your understanding

       8   that there was a conversation that Mr. Ahmad had with a Sheik

       9   Bilala?

      10   A.  It was Abu had a mad with Sheik Bilala.

      11   Q.  And Sheik Bilala was an opposition leader in Kenya; is

      12   that right?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  And the opposition that he was a member of were Muslims

      15   opposition?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  And he was considered a religious traditional Muslim?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And his supporters were religious traditional Muslims, is

      20   that correct?

      21   A.  He support what?

      22   Q.  His supporters, the group that he led was Muslim, many

      23   religious Muslims?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  And you're aware living in Kenya during that time that the

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       1   Kenyan government opposed the religious Muslims having power;

       2   is that right?

       3   A.  I can't say that.

       4   Q.  Well, they were opposed to Kalala, didn't they?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  And a mere telephone call to Bilala brought the Kenyan

       7   police to your apartment?

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Withdrawn.

      10            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      11   Q.  A telephone call from Chief Bilala brought the police to

      12   your apartment, didn't they?

      13            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

      14            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      15   Q.  Is it your understanding that as a result of only a

      16   telephone call --

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

      18            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      19   Q.  Now, the authorities, the people in power in Kenya at the

      20   time that you were there, were not Muslims, is that correct?

      21   A.  Some of them they are Muslims.

      22   Q.  The president at that time was Mr. Morton?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  And the Muslim population was basically most the largest

      25   portion of the Muslim population was up along the Somalia

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       1   border and down the coast; is that correct?

       2            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to competence.

       3            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       4   Q.  Did you have conversations with members of al Qaeda who

       5   went to Somalia came back from Somalia concerning the

       6   difficulty that they had with --

       7   A.  Yes, in the border.

       8   Q.  Did those discussions concern the Kenyans trying to

       9   prevent Muslims coming into becoming a factor in Kenya?

      10   A.  I don't think so.

      11   Q.  Were you aware from reading and watching television in

      12   Kenya that the Kenyan government regularly harassed and caused

      13   difficulty to religious Muslims?

      14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.

      15            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      16   Q.  It was a concern of the people going to and from

      17   Somalia -- withdrawn.  Was the Kenyan government a concern --

      18   withdrawn.

      19            Being caught by the Kenyan government is that a

      20   concern by the people going to and from Somalia court?

      21            MR. FITZGERALD:  Time frame.

      22            THE COURT:  Which people?  I assume that al Qaeda

      23   members?

      24   Q.  Yes, al Qaeda members.

      25            THE COURT:  Did you have conversations with members

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   of al Qaeda about their concern at the border?

       2            THE WITNESS:  I didn't understand the question.

       3            THE COURT:  Restate the question.

       4   Q.  Did you have conversations with members of al Qaeda who

       5   went and came back from Somalia of their concern with being

       6   stopped by Kenyan authorities?

       7   A.  Yes, probably, yes.

       8   Q.  It's your understanding that the people -- withdrawn.

       9   That you went to Nairobi not only to learn to fly, but to

      10   assist people going in and out of Somalia; is that correct?

      11            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      12            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you kindly repeat the question?

      13   Q.  One of your, one of the things that you were requested to

      14   do when you were in Nairobi was to assist the people who were

      15   traveling to and from Somalia?

      16   A.  It wasn't my request.  It was, it was normally I can do

      17   this if I have time.  It wasn't mandatory that I do that.

      18   Q.  It was your understanding that the group of al Qaeda

      19   people who were originally sent to Kenya, was to help the

      20   travel between to and from Somalia?

      21   A.  Yes, if you can do something you will do that.

      22   Q.  Now, you were aware while you were still in Afghanistan of

      23   people traveling from al Qaeda to Somalia; is that right?

      24   A.  I heard.

      25   Q.  And you heard from al Qaeda members; is that right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  And you had heard from al Qaeda members the terrible

       3   problems that the Somalis were having after the fall of the

       4   leaders of the country?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  You were aware of the famine and the wars within Somalia

       7   at that time; is that right?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  And you knew from your conversations with Mr. Bin Laden or

      10   al Qaeda that there was a concern about the suffering of

      11   brother Muslims in Somalia?

      12            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.  Clarify who he had the

      13   conversation with.

      14            THE COURT:  Yes.

      15   Q.  Mr. Al Qaeda and Somalians?

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  That is the objection.

      17            THE COURT:  Separate.

      18            MR. SCHMIDT:  Are they --

      19            THE COURT:  Separate.

      20   Q.  You had conversations with members of al Qaeda about the

      21   desire to help the Muslims in Somalia to try to help them from

      22   their starvation and from the bandits that were there?

      23   A.  Yes, it is a wish to help Muslims everywhere in the world.

      24   Q.  But did you ever hear Mr. Bin Laden talking about early on

      25   about trying to help the Muslim people of Somalia?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  I didn't hear from Bin Laden himself.

       2   Q.  Now, from your conversations with members of al Qaeda is

       3   it your understanding that the first al Qaeda members that

       4   went to Somalia went to an area that's called Kadisla?

       5   A.  Kadisla?

       6   Q.  Yes.

       7   A.  The first members of al Qaeda they went to Kadisla.  The

       8   first members they went to the north of Somalia.

       9   Q.  The part of Somalia that's near Dijbouti; is that right?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Are you familiar with the map of Somalia?

      12   A.  Yes, I can.

      13            MR. SCHMIDT:  Going to show this witness what has

      14   been marked as defendant WEHD.  May I, your Honor?

      15            THE COURT:  Yes.

      16   Q.  Now, could you make a mark if you can where the first

      17   group of al Qaeda went to in Somalia?  Can you do it?

      18   A.  Well, I think this area but I don't know exactly where.

      19   Q.  The northern portion near Dijbouti, is that correct?

      20   A.  Yes.  Somewhere in that area.

      21   Q.  That was in the end of 1991 or early 1992; is that

      22   correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  And that ended some months later because of the

      25   difficulty, internal difficulty dealing with the Somalians, is

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN2
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   that correct?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  Somalians wanted to do things their own way and they said

       4   we'll take your money, but we don't want you?

       5   A.  I don't know exactly what happened.

       6            (Continued on next page)

       7

       8

       9

      10

      11

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Q.  Also, shortly after that time, also the end of 1991, the

       2   beginning of 1992, people were sent to two other areas in

       3   Somalia, is that correct?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  One was the area that is called Ogaden.

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  Ogaden is really in Ethiopia at this period of time, is

       8   that correct?

       9   A.  Until now, yes.

      10   Q.  Even though it's in Ethiopia, the people who live there

      11   are Somalians, is that right?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  And the reason why it is part of Ethiopia is simply

      14   because when the Europeans divided it up they gave that

      15   portion to the country of Ethiopia.

      16   A.  I don't know what happened.

      17   Q.  They also sent a group of people to the south part of

      18   Somalia near the Kenyan border, is that correct?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Would that be the area that was called the Gedo region of

      21   Somalia?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  In the northern portion of Somalia there were people who

      24   tried to form an Islamic government to rule in the northern

      25   portion of Somalia -- withdrawn.  I will rephrase that

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12qkbin3
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   question.

       2            Were you aware in your conversations with Al Qaeda

       3   members that the reason that the group of Al Qaeda people were

       4   sent to the area around Hargeysa was that there was a

       5   religious Islamic group there that was trying to help form an

       6   Islamic government?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  And the people in the south, the Gedo region, there was a

       9   group of Islamics that was also trying to form a society based

      10   on Islam, is that correct, based on your conversations with Al

      11   Qaeda members?

      12            MR. FITZGERALD:  Just asking for a time frame.

      13   Q.  At the time frame that the people were sent.

      14            THE COURT:  When was that?  When to your knowledge

      15   were Al Qaeda members sent to southern Somalia?

      16   A.  I think before I came to Nairobi, '92, I think.

      17   Q.  Did you think that it might have been the end of 1991 or

      18   the beginning of 1992?

      19   A.  I think during '92, because they were still in

      20   Afghanistan.

      21   Q.  Do you remember when you first were discussing Somalia

      22   with government agents that you told them that Al Qaeda sent

      23   two or three groups to Somalia and Ogaden at the end of 1991

      24   or the beginning of 1992?

      25   A.  Probably, yes.  If I said that, it is correct, but I think

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12qkbin3
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   I am wrong.  I think maybe 1992 they came to that place.

       2   Q.  Then if it was 1992, it would be the early part of 1992.

       3   A.  Probably.

       4   Q.  There was actually a group for name for the group in the

       5   southern portion, the Gedo region, is that correct?  Al

       6   Ittihad Al Islami, isn't that right?

       7   A.  Al Ittihad al Islami is the main Islami group in Somalia,

       8   so the same one in the beginning.

       9   Q.  At some point after the Barre regime was overthrown and

      10   there was chaos in Somalia, the al Ittihad group sort of split

      11   to different areas, is that right?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Based on your conversations with members of Al Qaeda, is

      14   that right?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  One group formed in the Gedo region of Somalia.

      17            Did you learn from members of Al Qaeda that Somalia

      18   is also broken up by clans?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Did you learn from discussions with members of Al Qaeda

      21   that the clan of Mohamed Faraj Aidid was attacking the clan of

      22   Siad Barre?

      23   A.  I don't know exactly was he attacking Siad Barre, but they

      24   were fighting each others.

      25   Q.  Did you ever hear the word the Marehan clan?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Marehan?

       2   Q.  Yes.

       3   A.  Probably heard the name but I don't remember.

       4   Q.  But you were aware that there were fierce battles between

       5   Aideed's group and other groups?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  That was causing great destruction in Somalia?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  And it was your understanding that the Islamic groups in

      10   Somalia were trying to end the clan fighting and have a

      11   civilized society that cared for the people of Somalia, is

      12   that right?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  It is your understanding that Al Qaeda members were sent

      15   to help train these religious Somalis to defend their land and

      16   their people.

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  That included the Somalis that lived in the Ogaden, is

      19   that correct?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  The Somalis that lived in the Gedo region, is that

      22   correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  And the unsuccessful attempt of the Somalis that lived in

      25   the north of Hargeysa, is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12qkbin3
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  All of this, all of this assistance from Al Qaeda occurred

       3   before anybody had any idea that the United Nations or the

       4   United States was going to come and help the Somalis, isn't

       5   that correct?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  Were you aware in your discussions with Al Qaeda that

       8   during the 1992 period, that Aideed was anti-al Ittihad?

       9   A.  I don't know that.

      10   Q.  Did you ever hear the name of a person called Ali Mahdi

      11   Mohamed?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  He had support, based on your conversations with Al Qaeda

      14   members, he had support of the religious Muslims in Somalia,

      15   didn't he?

      16   A.  I don't think so.

      17   Q.  You know that he and Mr. Aideed were fighting constantly

      18   as well.

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  And they were causing destruction in Mogadishu, weren't

      21   they?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  The group, the original group of Al Qaeda people sent to

      24   Nairobi was to establish for logistical purposes, helping the

      25   transit of the Al Qaeda people from Afghanistan into Somalia,

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   isn't that right?

       2   A.  I don't know who --

       3   Q.  Do you remember saying to the government that the Nairobi

       4   station was established, was only established for the

       5   logistical purposes to help the guys traveling to and from

       6   Somalia?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  That was back either in the end of 1991 or earlier in

       9   1992, is that right?

      10   A.  I said that when I was there, when I knew what they are

      11   doing.

      12   Q.  But there were people from Al Qaeda in Nairobi when you

      13   arrived, right?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  They were sent earlier, weren't they?

      16   A.  Yes.  There is one Kenyan from Al Qaeda, he was doing that

      17   job.

      18   Q.  Some period of time after the Al Qaeda people were in

      19   southern, south, the area of the Gedo region in Somalia, the

      20   area of the Ogaden region in Somalia, there came a time when

      21   the UN came into Somalia.  Do you remember that?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  And at some point American troops also came into Somalia,

      24   is that right?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12qkbin3
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Q.  Already the members of Al Qaeda were in Somalia, or in and

       2   out of Somalia and back in Somalia for almost a year by the

       3   time the UN and the Americans went into Somalia.

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Did you learn about the attacks by the UN and the

       6   Americans on groups in Somalia?

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

       8            THE COURT:  Yes.

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  This goes to his state --

      10            THE COURT:  Yes, but from whom.

      11            MR. SCHMIDT:  Withdraw that.

      12   Q.  Did you have discussions in Al Qaeda about the American

      13   and UN attacks on certain groups of Somalis?

      14   A.  I don't know if they were attacking certain groups but

      15   there was problems there in Mogadishu.

      16   Q.  Do you recall if you heard from other Al Qaeda members

      17   that the problems, one of the major sources of the problems

      18   was Mr. Aideed?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20            (Continued on next page)

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Q.  Did you ever see film or photographs or a report of an

       2   attack by American troops on what is called Abdi House?

       3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.

       4            MR. COHN:  I would like to be objection.  I would

       5   like to be heard on this at sidebar at some point.

       6            THE COURT:  I tell you, I am told the jurors' lunches

       7   are here.  So why don't we break for lunch until 2:00.

       8            (Jury excused)

       9            (Record read)

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  My objection, he is asking in

      11   essence has he seen TV reports, photos, film?  This is classic

      12   hearsay.  He has to limit it to Al Qaeda discussions or he

      13   wasn't there.  On direct, every objection is to foundation and

      14   competence, and now he is asking if he has ever seen TV.

      15            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, my objection is somewhat more

      16   general, and it is precautionary.  It was my understanding at

      17   the beginning of this trial that we were not going to get into

      18   the shoot-out, the 18 dead Americans and dragging an American

      19   body through the street, and it is my fear that this line of

      20   questioning opens the door to that if the government wishes to

      21   enter.  So I object.  I don't think it is particularly

      22   relevant from our point of view.  I don't speak for Mr.

      23   Schmidt's view of its relevance to his case, but I believe I

      24   speak for the capital defendants at least, that we object.

      25            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I am obviously not bringing

       2   out the information about the Abdi House attack for the truth

       3   of the matter at this time through this witness.

       4            THE COURT:  What are you bringing it out for?

       5            MR. SCHMIDT:  I am bringing it out for his state of

       6   mind and then the Al Qaeda's state of mind about the American

       7   conduct in Somalia.

       8            THE COURT:  What is the significance of his state of

       9   mind with respect to the American conduct in Somalia?

      10            MR. SCHMIDT:  It is his state of mind and the

      11   discussions with Al Qaeda's state of mind.  Not just his in

      12   particular, it is also Al Qaeda's.

      13            THE COURT:  Let's take them one at a time.  What is

      14   the relevance of his state of mind with respect to American

      15   actions in Somalia?

      16            MR. SCHMIDT:  It is not just his, it's Al Qaeda's.

      17   Also he apparently --

      18            THE COURT:  All right.  If we are limiting it then to

      19   what this witness can tell us about Al Qaeda's state of mind

      20   with respect to American actions in Somalia, then the

      21   questioning would be limited to what Al Qaeda members told him

      22   on that subject.  Don't you agree?

      23            MR. SCHMIDT:  Or what he told other Al Qaeda members.

      24            THE COURT:  What is what he told -- if his state is

      25   irrelevant, what is the relevance of what he told them?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1            MR. SCHMIDT:  What he told that person becomes aware

       2   of this, it becomes that person's state of mind.  Moreover --

       3            THE COURT:  No, no, no.  That's too remote.  If you

       4   want to say did he have a conversation with Al Qaeda members

       5   concerning Americans' actions in Somalia, that's a permissible

       6   question.  If you want to follow up, and what did Al Qaeda

       7   members tell you of Americans' actions in Somalia, that's a

       8   permissible question.

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  It is also my understanding of the plea

      10   of this witness that the crime that he is charged involves his

      11   conduct in relation to Americans in Somalia.

      12            THE COURT:  Yes.

      13            MR. SCHMIDT:  So that is part of his plea and his

      14   state of mind is part of --

      15            THE COURT:  And the relevance of that to El Hage is

      16   what?

      17            MR. SCHMIDT:  The government claims that Mr. El Hage

      18   is part of Al Qaeda.  But now I am going into his credibility

      19   and his involvement in the criminal acts that he has pled

      20   guilty to.

      21            THE COURT:  You can ask him what he did, what acts he

      22   took, assuming you haven't covered that already, and I thought

      23   you had.  You asked him whether part of his assignment besides

      24   learning how to fly was to help, and he said to the extent I

      25   could.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1            MR. SCHMIDT:  If I may, your Honor, his state of

       2   mind --

       3            THE COURT:  So are we in agreement now that films, TV

       4   or what he read is not a permissible question?  I will sustain

       5   the objection to that question.

       6            MR. SCHMIDT:  I believe that I should be allowed to

       7   go into his state of mind since it is part of the conduct he

       8   pled guilty to, so I can cross-examine him as to his state of

       9   mind.  And then where and how he developed his state of mind

      10   is relevant.

      11            THE COURT:  If you want to ask him what he did in

      12   connection with Al Qaeda and Somalia, assuming you haven't

      13   done that already, you may ask him that.  If you want to ask

      14   him why he did it, what his motivation for doing it was, you

      15   may ask him that.

      16            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, he --

      17            THE COURT:  Let me finish, please.

      18            But the assumption that you can use this to ask

      19   anything with respect to Americans' actions in Somalia is

      20   inappropriate.

      21            Now there is another question.  Assuming you do all

      22   that, Mr. Cohn's objection is that it would open the door to

      23   matters which the government has agreed it will not pursue in

      24   this case, and obviously you can't have it both ways.

      25            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, my simple response to that

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   is, the government, before we started the trial said that they

       2   were willing to take out the overt act, and we assumed that

       3   Somalia was not going to be an issue, immediately goes into

       4   Somalia, that Al Qaeda is responsible for all the killings of

       5   all the Americans in Somalia.  So they have brought it out and

       6   we have to deal with that issue already.  The idea of not

       7   being specific or a specific attack is, I think, ludicrous if

       8   they are saying they are involved in all the killings of the

       9   United States but we are not going to talk about a specific

      10   one.  We have to deal with that.

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Just so we are clear, your Honor, we

      12   have not agreed to take that issue off the table.  What we did

      13   agree was to discuss whether certain discovery and other

      14   issues would be mooted if one overt act was not proven.  We

      15   have still to hear back on that.  We have agreed not to offer

      16   the proof at this time and we have held that decision in

      17   suspense until we hear a response.  I don't want anyone to

      18   think that we have waived anything.

      19            THE COURT:  To summarize where we are, I will permit

      20   you to ask this witness, to the extent that you have not

      21   already done so, as to what actions he took with respect to Al

      22   Qaeda and Somalia.  I will permit you to ask him his

      23   motivation for doing this, why he did that, and I will permit

      24   you to ask what he was told by Al Qaeda members with respect

      25   to the Al Qaeda operation in Somalia.  And now we are

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12qkbin3
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   adjourned for lunch until 2:00.

       2            MR. SCHMIDT:  If I may, your Honor, what I would like

       3   to do is also question him concerning not only what he did but

       4   his state of mind.

       5            THE COURT:  You may ask him why he did what he did.

       6            MR. SCHMIDT:  I just don't want to ask that

       7   particular open-ended question like that, because this is

       8   cross-examination.

       9            THE COURT:  Yes.  Give me an example of what you want

      10   to ask him.

      11            MR. SCHMIDT:  I will think about that and I will give

      12   you the example after lunch, your Honor.

      13            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, could counsel indicate

      14   whether he intends to get into the number of civilian

      15   casualties in Somalia as part of his questions of the

      16   witness's state of mind?

      17            THE COURT:  Do you want to respond to that, Mr.

      18   Schmidt?

      19            MR. SCHMIDT:  I don't know at this time.

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  We would have a standing objection

      21   and ask to be heard before we do that and I would alert other

      22   counsel that that issue would certainly impact on our decision

      23   whether to omit the overt act.

      24            THE COURT:  Adjourned until 2:00.

      25            (Luncheon recess)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1                 A F T E R N O O N    S E S S I O N

       2                             2:00 p.m.

       3            (In open court; jury present; witness resumed)

       4            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, we have a problem.

       5            THE COURT:  Is it something which requires immediate

       6   attention?

       7            MR. COHN:  I'm afraid so.

       8            THE COURT:  I'll see counsel and the reporter in the

       9   robing room.  Sorry, ladies and gentlemen.

      10            (Continued on next page)

      11

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      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1            (Pages 1441 through 1442 sealed)

       2            (In open court)

       3            THE COURT:  We will make arrangement at 4:30 for

       4   counsel to consult with clients.  Mr. Schmidt, you may

       5   continue.

       6   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

       7   Q.  Mr. Kherchtou, I'd like you to take a look at defendant

       8   Wadih El Hage Exhibit D, Somalia map.  If we can have that

       9   shown to the witness and counsel please.

      10            Is that then on your screen over there?

      11   A.  No, sir.

      12            THE COURT:  Yes, there it is.

      13            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      14   Q.  Now, does that map of Somalia, is that a fair and accurate

      15   representation of the country of Somalia?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17            MR. SCHMIDT:  I offer that into evidence.

      18            THE COURT:  Any objection?  Received.

      19            MR. FITZGERALD:  No.

      20            (Defendant's Exhibit D received in evidence)

      21   Q.  Now show that to the jury.  Thank you.

      22            Now, on the map you can see where the city of

      23   Hargeysa is.  Is that the city in the center, upper center of

      24   the map?

      25   A.  Excuse me?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   Q.  The word Hargeysa?

       2   A.  Yeah, it's in the north.

       3   Q.  Is that the one of the places that al Qaeda sent

       4   representatives in late 1991, early 1992?

       5   A.  I don't know exactly the city, but probably in the north

       6   in this area.

       7   Q.  Now, I ask you to take a look where it says Ogaden.  Do

       8   you see that?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Now, Ogaden as marked there is part of Ethiopia, is that

      11   correct?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  But the Ogadeni people are Somalis, is that right?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Now, is it one of the areas that al Qaeda sent people in

      16   late 1991 early 1992 was the border area of the Ogaden with

      17   Ethiopia and Somalia?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  Now, I ask you to look down at the area around Kenya?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And that's the southern portion of Somalia is the area

      22   around Kenya.  Now, is the ghetto region in the area

      23   approximately where the name Kenya is over the border into

      24   Somalia?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Q.  Thank you.

       2   A.  It's in the north of this map, in the northeast.

       3   Q.  That's the --

       4   A.  Not where the word Kenya is written, but it's in the

       5   northeast.

       6   Q.  So that's above where the word Kenya is?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  Closer towards Ethiopia?

       9   A.  Close to the border with Ethiopia.

      10   Q.  In fact some of the people -- withdrawn.  Actually, some

      11   of the Ali Tahad in the ghetto region were attacked by

      12   Ethiopian groups, are you aware of that?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Thank you, sir.

      15            Now, did you have discussions with or did you hear

      16   members of al Qaeda discussing the attacks on Somalis by the

      17   UN and the United States troops in Somalia?

      18   A.  No.

      19   Q.  Did Abu Mohamed Masry go to Somalia at some period in

      20   time?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Now, did he go, was it -- withdrawn.

      23            When he went to Somalia was in 1994, isn't that

      24   correct?

      25   A.  Abu Masry?  He went to Somalia, yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   Q.  It was in 1994 that he went so Somalia, isn't that

       2   correct?

       3   A.  He went before that I think, yeah.

       4   Q.  Now, you had a lot of conversations with the, with agents

       5   of the United States, is that correct?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  And do you recall the first conversation that you had with

       8   them was in August 25 of last year?

       9   A.  August 25th?  I don't remember the exact date.

      10   Q.  It was around the end of August?

      11   A.  Yeah.

      12   Q.  And would it be fair to describe that you had

      13   approximately 26 meetings with the American officials between

      14   that first one in the end of August and the very beginning of

      15   January of this year?

      16   A.  Yeah, probably.

      17   Q.  Now, in one of those conversations on August -- excuse

      18   me -- August 21st, it was the end of August, did you tell the

      19   government that when Mohamed el Masry went to Somalia it was

      20   approximately 1994?

      21   A.  If I say that, yes.

      22   Q.  Well I'm going to show you what's marked as 3505-7, page

      23   4.  I'm going to ask you to take a look at what's written

      24   there, that's in brackets.  Read it to yourself and then I'll

      25   ask you a question.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Okay.

       2            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I approach the witness, Judge?

       3            THE COURT:  Yes.

       4            (Pause)

       5   Q.  Now, having read that, does that help you remember that

       6   when Mohammed al Masry went to Somalia about 1994?

       7   A.  Well, in this statement I said they are talking about he

       8   went in Somalia then went to Mogadishu, but Mohammed went to

       9   Somalia before that.

      10   Q.  He went to Mogadishu then in 1994, would that be more

      11   accurate?

      12   A.  I think so, yes.

      13   Q.  So earlier he went to other parts of Somalia, and then in

      14   1994 he went to Mogadishu?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  Thank you.

      17            Was he with one of the first groups that went to

      18   either the northern section, the Ogaden section or the ghetto

      19   section of Somalia?

      20   A.  I think he went first in ghetto section.

      21   Q.  That was back in either late 1991 or early 1992, is that

      22   right?

      23   A.  Yeah, I wasn't there when he went there.

      24   Q.  Now, in 1994 Mr. Bin Laden made some statements about the

      25   US in Saudi Arabia, is that right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  He also made some statements about the US in --

       3   A.  No, at that time he didn't talk about Somalia.

       4   Q.  Did you in either 1994 or earlier ever hear of any fatwas

       5   issued by or for Usama Bin Laden concerning Saudi Arabia, the

       6   Gulf War or Somalia?

       7   A.  Fatwa?

       8   Q.  Fatwa.

       9   A.  No.

      10   Q.  Did you ever hear of fatwa issued in 1995 by or for

      11   Mr. Bin Laden?

      12   A.  I don't remember.

      13   Q.  Is this something that you would likely remember if you

      14   heard it?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  In fact, the first fatwa that you heard was about Saudi

      17   Arabia, and it was directed to the Saudi citizens, isn't that

      18   right?

      19   A.  Well, this is a difference between fatwa and statement.

      20   Fatwa is something that issued by one of the Islamic scholars,

      21   and it's something religious that everybody must follow, but

      22   if a statement it must be opinion, I can follow that or not.

      23   It's not mandatory.

      24   Q.  So Mr. Bin Laden 1996 issued a statement, not a fatwa?

      25   A.  When he, from Afghanistan he issued a fatwa, but it's not

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   him who issue the fatwa.  He's talking about the other Islamic

       2   scholars who agreed about that fatwa, but not him.

       3   Q.  That was directed to the Saudis; is that correct?

       4   A.  '96?

       5   Q.  Yes?

       6   A.  I don't remember.  It was in general about United States.

       7   Q.  Now, you told us that you received some type of training

       8   by Mohammed al Amriki when you were in Pakistan, is that

       9   correct?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Now, do you remember what year that was?

      12   A.  Probably the early '93.

      13   Q.  You left Pakistan near the end of 1993.  Is that right?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Now, did you do any surveillance on behalf of Mohammed al

      16   Amriki or Usama Bin Laden or anybody in 1993 other than your

      17   training?

      18   A.  During the training?

      19   Q.  Other than the training?

      20   A.  No.

      21   Q.  And in the training did you do surveillance of a police

      22   station?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Now, in late 1993 or early 1994 you saw Mohammed al Amriki

      25   again; is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   A.  Where?

       2   Q.  Late 1993 or early 1994?

       3   A.  I think it's '94.

       4   Q.  Would that be early part of 1994?

       5   A.  Probably, yes.

       6   Q.  And you were in, living in Nairobi with Mr. Hamid, right?

       7   A.  Abdul Hamid.

       8   Q.  Now, you described to us previously the setup of what

       9   Mohammed al Amriki did to the apartment, you remember

      10   describing it to us?

      11   A.  When they took small part of my apartment?

      12   Q.  That's correct.

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  And they took the part that they blocked off for the dark

      15   room was the part furthest from the room that you were staying

      16   in with Mr. Hamid.  Is that right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  Now, at that time you were, excuse me -- Mr. Al Fa was or

      19   Hamad was still in Kenya; is that correct?

      20   A.  Yes.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And Wadih El Hage was either in the Sudan or traveling

      22   around Europe on behalf of Usama Bin Laden's companies, is

      23   that right?

      24            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      25            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'll rephrase the question.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Q.  Mr. El Hage was not in Kenya at that time, is that

       2   correct?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  Now, whenever there was -- withdrawn.  At the end of the

       5   day all of the negatives or photographs were taken from your

       6   apartment with Mohammed al Amriki and the others, is that

       7   correct?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  Nothing was ever left in the apartment that had anything

      10   to do with why they were there; is that correct?

      11   A.  That had anything what?

      12   Q.  Nothing, no photographs, reports, films, negatives were

      13   left in the house with you, is that right?

      14   A.  No.  It's right, yes.

      15   Q.  Thank you.

      16            And, in fact, whenever there was film, negatives,

      17   photographs or reports present in your apartment there was

      18   always someone there from the group, that group, who came with

      19   Mohammed al Amriki to make sure nobody else gets to see it?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  This was a very secretive operation, is that right?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  And while you saw things going on in the apartment, no one

      24   talked to you about that.  Is that correct?

      25   A.  No.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Q.  They talked to you about that?

       2   A.  No.

       3   Q.  Did anyone talk to you about what was going on in the

       4   apartment?

       5   A.  No, I know that they are doing something in the apartment.

       6   Q.  But no one talked about it at all other than what you saw;

       7   is that correct?

       8   A.  How can I if I knew what they are doing, how can they tell

       9   me, we are developing pictures?

      10   Q.  Well, they didn't talk to you about what the pictures

      11   were?

      12   A.  No.

      13   Q.  Did they talk to you about what the pictures were?

      14   A.  No.

      15   Q.  Did you talk to Mr. Hamad about the pictures?

      16   A.  No.

      17   Q.  Did you talk to Mr. Hamid about the pictures?

      18   A.  Well, they all see the same what I saw.

      19   Q.  But you didn't have discussions beyond what you just saw,

      20   is that right?

      21   A.  I don't think so.

      22   Q.  Because this was something that was very secret and you

      23   knew that you really shouldn't be about having conversations

      24   about that with other people, even people who were in al

      25   Qaeda; is that right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Sometimes, yes.

       2   Q.  Well, this was one of the things that you wouldn't discuss

       3   with anybody, isn't that right?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Now, Mr. Amriki was also and Egyptian; is that right?

       6   A.  Who?

       7   Q.  He was an American, an Egyptian?

       8   A.  Who, Amriki?

       9   Q.  Yes?

      10   A.  You said Mr. Amriki.

      11   Q.  Mohammed Amriki was an Egyptian, is that right?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  And he was also present there with another Egyptian that

      14   you don't remember his name, is that correct?

      15   A.  No, I remember his name.

      16   Q.  What was name?

      17   A.  Abu Harad el Masry.

      18   Q.  Now, sometime later you were living in the room off of Mr.

      19   El Hage's family's home when Mohammed al Amriki came back; is

      20   that right?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Now, how long after that event did you leave to go back to

      23   the Sudan?

      24   A.  I don't remember.

      25   Q.  When Mohammed al Amriki spoke with you about Senegal he

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   spoke to you in your room that was separate from Mr. El Hage's

       2   family's home; is that correct?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And Mohammed al Amriki when he came to the house he did

       5   not have all of the material that they had had at the earlier

       6   surveillance; is that correct?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  So there was no cameras, there was no film, there was no

       9   developers, no machines, is that correct?

      10   A.  I think he had a camera but it's seems normal.

      11   Q.  When you say you think he had a camera, do you think

      12   that's sort of a guess at this point?

      13   A.  Excuse me?

      14   Q.  Is that a guess, are you guessing that he had a camera?

      15   A.  He had a camera, yes.

      16   Q.  You remember having a conversation in August 19th, 2000

      17   with a representative of the government where you told him

      18   that they did not have any cameras because they were not ready

      19   to go to Senegal at the time?

      20            Do you remember saying that?

      21   A.  If it says it, yes.

      22   Q.  Well, let me show you what's marked as 3505-6, page 22.

      23            May I approach the witness, your Honor?

      24            THE COURT:  Yes.

      25            Now, you read that, is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  Now, back in August -- withdrawn.  Have you ever testified

       3   in any proceeding before?

       4   A.  No.

       5   Q.  Are you nervous about sitting here and being asked

       6   questions and giving the answers before everybody here?

       7   A.  Yes, normal I think.

       8   Q.  Excuse me?

       9   A.  I think it's normal here.

      10   Q.  Were you more comfortable back in August when you were

      11   sitting down and talking with the government?

      12   A.  I think it was the same thing.  I never sit with the

      13   government before.

      14   Q.  Now, having reviewed the document do you have a present

      15   recollection, do you remember now that there was wasn't a

      16   camera, that Mr. Mohamed al Amriki, al Amriki did not have a

      17   camera back then?  Is that your accurate recollection?

      18   A.  No, I think he had a camera.

      19   Q.  You remember now saying to the government back then that

      20   he did not have a camera?

      21   A.  Well, I think because you interested in this small things

      22   I remembered that.  You refreshed my mind.  But the camera

      23   wasn't for anything here.

      24   Q.  It wasn't?

      25   A.  I mean Mohammed is carrying a lot of stuff everyday, every

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   time.

       2   Q.  He's always traveling with a lot of different items?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  He was staying in the room with you when he was there?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  And his belongings remained in that room?

       7   A.  Excuse me?

       8   Q.  His belongings, his luggage remained in that room?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Now, again how many days was Mohammed al Amriki with you

      11   in the room outside of Mr. El Hage's house?

      12   A.  I don't remember.

      13   Q.  I mean, was it a few days or a week?

      14   A.  No, it was a few days.

      15   Q.  And, again, this was something when you spoke to Mr.

      16   Mohamed al Amriki, the surveillance was something that you

      17   wouldn't talk to with anybody else, is that right?

      18   A.  I shouldn't, yes.

      19   Q.  And in fact, you didn't, isn't that correct?

      20   A.  I don't remember.

      21   Q.  Now, in Nairobi Moy Avenue is a major street in downtown

      22   Nairobi, is that correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  There are many government buildings on Moy Avenue; is that

      25   right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  I don't know.

       2   Q.  Within a block or so of Moy Avenue?

       3   A.  Government buildings they are not in Moy Avenue I think.

       4   Q.  There are many airline companies?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  Around Moy Avenue?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  Do you recall the address of Egypt Air?

       9   A.  Egypt Air, I don't remember the address.

      10   Q.  Do you recall the address of El Al?

      11   A.  What?

      12   Q.  The Israeli airline, do you recall the address of the

      13   Israeli airline at the time?

      14   A.  No, no.

      15   Q.  Do you recall the address of the French, Air France, the

      16   French airlines?

      17   A.  I don't remember it.

      18   Q.  Do you know the address of the Egyptian embassy?

      19   A.  I really don't remember it.

      20   Q.  Many countries have offices downtown Nairobi; is that

      21   correct?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Now, you said on direct examination that it was clear that

      24   at some point the United States was the enemy of all the

      25   Muslims groups in the Sudan.  You remember saying that?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  Now, do you recall Mr. Bin Laden -- withdrawn.

       3            Would it be fair to say that while Mr. Bin Laden was

       4   in the Sudan he didn't express great animosity towards the

       5   United States?

       6            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.  Express to whom?

       7            THE COURT:  And his knowledge.  I sustain the

       8   objection to the form of the question.

       9   Q.  Would it be fair to say that you never heard Mr. Bin Laden

      10   express great animosity towards the United States when he was

      11   in the Sudan?

      12   A.  Excuse me.

      13            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      14   A.  Probably I heard him.  I can't --

      15   Q.  You can't remember?

      16   A.  Yeah.

      17   Q.  So if he said something it would be something that was

      18   something that didn't stick in your mind?

      19   A.  Because the matter was obvious.  He can talk about that.

      20   Q.  Well, would it be fair to say that Mr. Bin Laden and many

      21   Muslims were not, many members of al Qaeda, were not happy

      22   that the United States remained in Saudi Arabia after the

      23   Iraqis were thrown out?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Is it fair to say that not only al Qaeda and Mr. Bin

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Laden, that most Muslims were not happy with the United States

       2   remaining in the land of the holy places after the Iraqis were

       3   thrown out?

       4            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, competence again, your

       5   Honor, speaking on behalf of most Muslims.

       6            THE COURT:  Ask him what he understood and what the

       7   basis of that understanding.

       8   Q.  Is it your understanding that most Muslims were not happy

       9   with the Americans remaining in the land of the holy places

      10   after the Iraqis were thrown out?

      11   A.  Yes, not most Muslims because many Muslims they don't know

      12   what's going on.  Maybe I can say just groups, Islamic groups.

      13            THE COURT:  What was the basis of your understanding?

      14            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      15            THE INTERPRETER:  The conversations that were going

      16   on or carried out.

      17            MR. SCHMIDT:  Excuse me?

      18            THE INTERPRETER:  The conversations that were carried

      19   out, what was being said.

      20   Q.  Now, the conversations showed many people in al Qaeda and

      21   the other Islamic groups their displeasure of the Americans

      22   remaining in Saudi Arabia, is that right?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Now, however, there is a difference, a big difference

      25   between viewing the United States as an enemy because they are

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   present in Saudi Arabia versus actually attacking Americans.

       2   Isn't that right?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And your view and the view of other al Qaeda members was

       5   that while Americans were an enemy because they were

       6   preventing true Islamic government from taking over that there

       7   was no intention of attacking Americans, isn't that correct?

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.  His view and

       9   other members' views.

      10            THE COURT:  Overruled.  Follow up.

      11   A.  Can you repeat the answer and your question.

      12   Q.  Isn't it a fact that -- withdrawn.

      13            Could you repeat that question, please.

      14            (Record read)

      15   A.  Well, the intention of attacking wasn't in the beginning.

      16   Q.  In the beginning meaning the first time that you were in

      17   Afghanistan, is that correct?

      18   A.  Even further.

      19   Q.  And the time that you were in the Sudan; is that correct?

      20   A.  I realized that when I saw people coming to make

      21   surveillance in Kenya that they might to do something in the

      22   future.

      23   Q.  So didn't you say that the first time that the real

      24   animosity against the US started after Mr. Bin Laden went to

      25   Sudan?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   A.  Well, after he left the Sudan he started issuing that

       2   various statement about the United States.

       3   Q.  That's the first time where you had any inkling that Bin

       4   Laden would ever do anything like what happened in 1998, isn't

       5   that right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  When Mr. Bin Laden went back to Afghanistan you remained

       8   in the Sudan; is that right?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  But you heard from people who still remained in the Sudan

      11   many things that were going on with Mr. Bin Laden and al

      12   Qaeda; is that right?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  And it seemed to you what you were learning was that some

      15   members of the Egyptian jihad were gaining influence over

      16   Mr. Bin Laden, is that right?

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to competence, the same

      18   one made on direct.

      19            THE COURT:  Restate your question.

      20   Q.  You heard from people who still were al Qaeda members that

      21   people like Sawa Hiri was gaining influence over Bin Laden

      22   Afghanistan, didn't you?

      23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Same objection.

      24            THE COURT:  I would permit a yes or no to that.

      25   Q.  You may answer.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  Now, Mr. Bin Laden -- withdrawn.

       3            Now, was it after Mr. Bin Laden issued the fatwa

       4   concerning Saudi Arabia from Afghanistan in 1996, was it --

       5            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

       6            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'll start over again, your Honor.

       7   Q.  Was it al Qaeda -- did you hear from people who were in al

       8   Qaeda that Bin Laden's fatwa was a fatwa issued from

       9   Afghanistan concerning Saudi Arabia was an attempt to become a

      10   popular figure in Saudi Arabia?

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form again.

      12            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      13   Q.  When did you first hear about the Saudi Arabian --

      14   withdrawn.  When did you first hear of the fatwa issued

      15   concerning Saudi Arabia from Afghanistan?

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form again, if your

      17   Honor, please.

      18            MR. SCHMIDT:  Withdrawn.

      19   Q.  Did you ever hear about the fatwa from Afghanistan

      20   concerning Saudi Arabia?

      21            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, again.

      22            THE COURT:  It's the last phrase that you're

      23   objecting to?

      24            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes.

      25            THE COURT:  Sustained.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12Q1BIN4
                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Q.  When was the first time that you heard a fatwa issued out

       2   of Afghanistan?

       3   A.  General fatwa?

       4   Q.  General fatwa.

       5   A.  The end of '96 I think.

       6   Q.  Was that about Saudi Arabia?

       7   A.  If I remember it was about United States.

       8            (Continued on next page)

       9

      10

      11

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   Q.  It was about the United States troops in Saudi Arabia?

       2   A.  They are using the presence of United States in Saudi

       3   Arabia so as to issue this fatwah.  It was not the reason.

       4   Q.  It was basically to try to effect a change in the

       5   government of Saudi Arabia, is that right?

       6            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.  Competence.

       7            THE COURT:  You can ask him whether he was familiar

       8   with the fatwah, what its contents were, and whether that was

       9   one of the objects stated in the fatwah as its objective.

      10   Q.  Did you talk with anybody who was a member of Al Qaeda

      11   after you heard about the fatwah issued from Afghanistan?

      12   A.  Probably, yes.

      13   Q.  Do you remember the conversation that you had with that

      14   person or persons?

      15   A.  There was no many people there of Al Qaeda in Sudan at

      16   that time.

      17   Q.  Do you remember what their reaction to that fatwah was?

      18            THE COURT:  You know, a statement by some

      19   unidentified member of Al Qaeda doesn't necessarily constitute

      20   the policy of Al Qaeda.  You can ask him whether he read it,

      21   whether he was familiar with the contents, whether he

      22   discussed the contents with anyone else.

      23            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I am not asking whether it

      24   represents the, quote, Al Qaeda position, but only --

      25            THE COURT:  I sustain the objection.  Move on,

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   please.

       2   Q.  When you were in the Sudan during your two, three or four

       3   weeks visits from Kenya and after you returned to the Sudan,

       4   you went, sometimes you went to weekly discussions at Al Qaeda

       5   guesthouse, is that correct?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  The guesthouse that it was usually held in -- withdrawn.

       8            They were Thursday evening meetings?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  After prayer?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  The guesthouse they were usually held in was the one

      13   called the Saudi guesthouse.

      14   A.  I have never heard this name.

      15   Q.  It's a guesthouse where many Saudis used to stay, and it

      16   had a big room and it was in the Riyadh section.

      17   A.  Yes, but its name was guesthouse.  There is no Saudi.  OK.

      18   Q.  These Thursday meetings were not mandatory, were they?

      19   A.  Yes.  They weren't mandatory, yes.

      20   Q.  But you usually went anyway.

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  You never saw the person who was depicted in the

      23   photograph that I showed you, Defendant's Exhibit, WEH Exhibit

      24   C, you never saw that person at any of those meetings, is that

      25   correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Which person, the first one you showed me?

       2   Q.  The photograph that you looked at.

       3   A.  No.

       4   Q.  At these guesthouse meetings, it was an opportunity to see

       5   people that you may have not seen for a while, is that right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  And you discussed news, both what's happening in the

       8   Sudan, international news?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  There were sometimes lectures about the ways of the

      11   prophet?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  There was actually a Koran memorization program that was

      14   given at the guesthouses?

      15   A.  Some people who are visiting there, not like me who are

      16   traveling, they have that program.

      17   Q.  But most of the lectures, the religious lectures and the

      18   sermons, were not given at the guesthouse, they were given in

      19   local mosques; is that right?

      20   A.  Some in local mosques, some in guesthouse.

      21   Q.  There was a religious committee in Al Qaeda, is that

      22   right?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Was it the opinion of many members of Al Qaeda that the

      25   religious committee did not have a very high status?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Excuse me. (Interpreted)

       2            THE INTERPRETER:  He is asking for more clarification

       3   of the question.

       4   Q.  Would it be fair to say that when Bin Laden, or Al Qaeda

       5   was looking for religious clarifications of -- withdrawn.

       6            Would it be fair to say that when Al Qaeda or Mr. Bin

       7   Laden were looking for clarification of religious issues, that

       8   he often spoke with scholars in Saudi Arabia?

       9   A.  Yes, if they are big issues, he has to bring something

      10   from the scholars, yes.

      11   Q.  And while there were some learned, some people who had

      12   memorized the Koran who were living in the Sudan, they were

      13   not considered high enough scholars at times, is that right?

      14   A.  Yes.  As I said, there is a big difference between

      15   somebody who memorized the Koran and scholar.  Scholar is very

      16   top in not only Koran but in sharia, in the prophet life and

      17   in other things.

      18   Q.  So for somebody to be able to issue a fatwah, they have to

      19   really be a great scholar.

      20   A.  He has to be, yes.

      21   Q.  And there was really nobody in the Sudan that would fit

      22   that category of a great scholar, is that correct?

      23   A.  To my knowledge, Abu Ibrahim al Iraqi, for example, he has

      24   some skill, but the others, they are not, they don't have the

      25   level.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   Q.  Abu Ibrahim often lectured at the mosques on Friday night,

       2   didn't he?

       3   A.  It's not Friday night.  It's during the Friday prayer.

       4   It's 1:00.

       5   Q.  I apologize.  It was on Friday, though, after the 1:00

       6   prayer -- withdrawn.

       7            On Fridays after the communal prayer, is that when

       8   there were lectures?

       9   A.  Yes, he was doing the lecturing this prayer.

      10   Q.  In Islam, the one time where it is very important to try

      11   to have communal prayers is on Friday, is that correct?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  And often because there are communal prayers, someone will

      14   speak or give a sermon after the prayers.

      15   A.  It's before the prayer.

      16   Q.  I am sorry, before the prayer.  Thank you.  And people

      17   like Ibrahim al Iraqi spoke often at the communal, before the

      18   communal prayers on Friday.

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Abu Hajer al Iraqi, he also spoke sometimes on Fridays

      21   before the communal prayers.

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  But they didn't always speak at the same mosque, they

      24   often spoke at different mosques around town, is that right?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   Q.  And the mosques in Khartoum were mosques that were open to

       2   the public and to different people and different groups.

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  So at these mosques there weren't just Al Qaeda people,

       5   there were Al Qaeda people and other people as well.

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  It was a public forum.

       8   A.  It's public, yes.

       9   Q.  When Abu Hajer spoke, he usually spoke about ethics and

      10   morals and not politics, is that correct?

      11   A.  Generally, yes.

      12   Q.  Members of Al Qaeda were free to go to any particular

      13   mosque for their Friday communal prayers, isn't that right?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  So there was no requirement, say, today Abu Hajer is

      16   speaking at this mosque, we all must go to this mosque.  There

      17   was nothing like that.

      18   A.  No.

      19   Q.  When you took a bayat with Al Qaeda, did you have a piece

      20   of paper to read or a document to read?

      21   A.  Yes, it was a paper, yes.

      22   Q.  Did you also discuss that with people, members of Al

      23   Qaeda?

      24   A.  At that time maybe.

      25   Q.  Do you recall that one of the conditions of being a member

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   of Al Qaeda was that you could not join any other Islamic

       2   organizations?

       3   A.  You can do it only if you leave that group.

       4   Q.  That's correct.

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  So if you were from another group and you joined Al Qaeda,

       7   you had to leave the group that you belonged to?

       8   A.  Because you can't work under two bosses.

       9   Q.  And because the different bosses of the different groups

      10   often had very different philosophies, isn't that right?

      11   A.  Sometimes, yes.

      12   Q.  And if you wanted to join another group you would have to

      13   seek permission to leave Al Qaeda.

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Do you remember when you were asked by the government that

      16   if you violated your bayat when you decided not to go to

      17   Afghanistan?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And do you remember saying that you did because what was

      20   asked of you was not unIslamic?

      21   A.  Excuse me.  Can you repeat again.

      22   Q.  Do you remember that you answered that yes, you did break

      23   your bayat because what they asked you to do, to go to

      24   Afghanistan, was normal and not unIslamic?

      25   A.  No.  I think you -- I didn't say that.  I said I have been

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   asked to go to Afghanistan and they didn't agree, and it's

       2   normally a breaking of the bayat and it's a sin, but it's not

       3   Islamic.

       4   Q.  But part of your bayat was that the leadership of Al Qaeda

       5   would not ask you to do something that was not Islamic, isn't

       6   that correct?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  And the determination of what is not Islamic or unIslamic

       9   falls on the individual Sunni Muslim, doesn't it?

      10   A.  You want to know what is Islamic or not Islamic.

      11   Q.  Yes.

      12   A.  If he ask me, for example, to do something that is against

      13   Islam, in this way I should disobey him.

      14   Q.  And it is your responsibility as a Sunni Muslim to make

      15   that determination as to whether what you were asked is

      16   Islamic or not Islamic.

      17   A.  If you know what you are doing it's OK.  If you don't

      18   know, you have to ask.

      19   Q.  You were supposed to ultimately make the decision.

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And you are allowed to speak to other scholars to help you

      22   make a decision?

      23   A.  Yes.  You should speak to them, yes.

      24   Q.  In fact, it is so strong for you to make that decision

      25   that you have a religious obligation to always make a

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   determination of what you are asked to do is, whether it is

       2   Islamic or nonIslamic.

       3   A.  You should know, yes.

       4   Q.  And if you determined that you were being asked to do

       5   something nonIslamic, you can say no without violating your

       6   bayat; isn't that right?

       7   A.  I can say no, yes.

       8            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I have one moment, your Honor?

       9            I have no further questions.  Thank you.

      10            THE COURT:  Who else?

      11            MR. WILFORD:  I have questions, your Honor.

      12            THE COURT:  Mr. Wilford for the defendant Odeh.

      13            MR. WILFORD:  May I inquire, your Honor?

      14            THE COURT:  Yes, please.

      15            MR. WILFORD:  Thank you.

      16   CROSS-EXAMINATION

      17   BY MR. WILFORD:

      18   Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Kherchtou.

      19   A.  Good afternoon.

      20   Q.  Is that the correct pronunciation of your name?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  You met, isn't it correct, with American officials several

      23   times?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Isn't it a fact that at these meetings, although you speak

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   English, you used an Arabic interpreter; isn't that correct?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  And isn't it a fact that you used an Arabic interpreter to

       4   ensure that everything you were being asked and everything you

       5   were saying was clearly and correctly understood?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7            MR. WILFORD:  Your Honor, I am going to ask that the

       8   remainder of my questions and the witness's answers be

       9   interpreted through the interpreter so that we have a clear

      10   understanding what is being asked and answered.

      11            THE COURT:  Any objection?

      12            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

      13            THE COURT:  Very well.

      14            (Through the interpreter)

      15   Q.  Sir, do you know who Dr. Fadl is?

      16   A.  Yes, I do.

      17   Q.  Are you familiar with his religious philosophy?

      18   A.  I heard about it.

      19   Q.  While you were in Afghanistan, did you have any

      20   interaction with Dr. Fadl or his lectures?

      21            THE COURT:  Spell the name.

      22            MR. WILFORD:  I am sorry, your Honor.  F-A-D-L.

      23   A.  I heard of him, but I never attended any of his lectures.

      24   Q.  Moving along, you lived in the Sudan when Al Qaeda moved

      25   from Afghanistan, is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   A.  The answer is yes.

       2   Q.  You also lived in Kenya for several years, isn't that a

       3   fact?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  You never lived or visited Somalia, isn't that correct?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  When you lived in Nairobi, you lived in Kenya, you lived

       8   in the city of Nairobi, isn't that correct?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Nairobi is a big city, right?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  You are familiar with the major thoroughfares and Nairobi?

      13            THE INTERPRETER:  I beg your pardon.

      14   Q.  You are familiar with the streets, the major thoroughfares

      15   in Nairobi?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  You are familiar with Moi Avenue, isn't that correct?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  Isn't it a fact that there are parts of Moi Avenue that

      20   are shopping districts?

      21            THE INTERPRETER:  That are?

      22   Q.  Shopping districts.

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Where people purchase clothes?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   Q.  Isn't it a fact that the American Embassy is also on Moi

       2   Avenue?

       3   A.  At the end of it.

       4   Q.  A long way away from the shopping area, isn't that

       5   correct?

       6            THE INTERPRETER:  A long --

       7   Q.  Way away from the shopping area.

       8   A.  There are some commercial stores which are close to the

       9   embassy.

      10   Q.  But the major shopping area is a distance away from the

      11   embassy, isn't that correct?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  You never lived in the Kenyan countryside, did you?

      14   A.  No.

      15   Q.  Have you ever been to Witu, Kenya?  W-I-T-U.

      16   A.  No.

      17   Q.  All of the places that you lived in in Kenya had in fact

      18   running water, isn't that correct?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  And all the places that you lived in in Kenya had

      21   electricity, isn't that correct?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  And all the places that you lived in in Kenya had indoor

      24   toilet facilities, isn't that correct?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   Q.  And, sir, the places that you lived in while you were

       2   living in Kenya also had telephones, isn't that correct?

       3   A.  Not all of it.

       4   Q.  Not every place, but they had the capacity to have a

       5   telephone, isn't that correct?

       6            THE INTERPRETER:  Beg your pardon?

       7   Q.  They had the capacity to have a telephone, isn't that

       8   correct?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  While you were living in Kenya for several years -- it was

      11   in fact several years that you lived there, right?

      12   A.  That's true.

      13   Q.  While you were living there, you had an opportunity to

      14   learn about the Kenyan police, isn't that correct?

      15            THE INTERPRETER:  The Kenyan?

      16   Q.  Police.

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  In fact, you learned about the Kenyan police firsthand,

      19   isn't that correct?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  Sir, would it be fair to say that based upon your time

      22   spent living in Kenya and your own personal experience with

      23   the Kenyan police, that the Kenyan police enjoy a

      24   well-deserved reputation as brutal thugs or --

      25            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1            THE COURT:  Yes, sustained.

       2   Q.  You did, sir, have an opportunity to bribe the Kenyan

       3   police yourself?

       4   A.  Through an attorney.

       5   Q.  Right.  You didn't pay the bribe personally to a

       6   particular police officer, you went to the lawyer, the lawyer

       7   gave the money to the police and in turn you got something

       8   that you wanted; isn't that correct?  I am sorry.

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  You got one of your brothers out of jail, right?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  Isn't it a fact that when the Kenyan police came to the

      13   place where you were living and searched it, they stole money

      14   from you, right?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  When you were arrested in Kenya -- you did get arrested in

      17   Kenya, isn't that correct?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  How long did you remain in jail?

      20   A.  Almost 11 days.

      21   Q.  The instance when you bribed the Kenyan officials or

      22   participated in bribing Kenyan officials, three of your

      23   brothers were actually arrested at that point, right?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Could you please tell us who they were, those three people

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   that were arrested.

       2   A.  Abdel Hameed, Khalid Fawwaz, and Abu Ammar.

       3   Q.  Hamad was released rather quickly, once you paid the

       4   bribe, isn't that correct?

       5            THE INTERPRETER:  Who?

       6   Q.  Hamad.

       7   A.  Hamad and Abdel Hameed.

       8   Q.  How long was he detained before he was released?

       9   A.  Almost 14 days.

      10   Q.  The second person that was released, how long was he held

      11   before he was released?

      12   A.  Between two and four months.

      13   Q.  And the third person was held how long?

      14   A.  The first two were released together, and it's the third

      15   one that remained between two to four months.

      16   Q.  And that's despite the fact that you paid the bribe,

      17   right?

      18   A.  The bribe was for Abdel Hameed and Khalid Fawwaz only.

      19   Q.  Sir, when you were involved in this process of paying a

      20   bribe, isn't it a fact that you went to the precinct, the

      21   police station, with a lawyer?

      22   A.  We went with him later on, not the day that we paid the

      23   bribe.

      24   Q.  I understand that, but you did in fact go to the precinct

      25   with an attorney, is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Kherchtou - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  And the reason that you went, even contacted an attorney

       3   and went to the precinct with an attorney is because you

       4   received a phone call from one of your brothers informing you

       5   that they had been arrested; isn't that correct?

       6   A.  I went with Khalid Fawwaz to the jail to ask about Abdul

       7   Hameed, and there they arrested Khalid Fawwaz.

       8   Q.  You went to the jail because you received a phone call

       9   from the first person who was arrested, telling you that they

      10   had been arrested; isn't that correct?

      11   A.  No.

      12   Q.  Tell me what happened, sir.

      13   A.  Through her?

      14   Q.  Yes, please.

      15   A.  Initially when I first learned that Abdul Hameed was

      16   arrested --

      17   Q.  Can I just stop you right there for a moment.  How did you

      18   learn that Hameed had been arrested?

      19   A.  From the neighbors.

      20   Q.  From the neighbors.

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  You never received a phone call?

      23   A.  Never.

      24   Q.  Did you make a phone call concerning the arrest?

      25   A.  I contacted by telephone Khalid Fawwaz to tell him about

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   the arrest and I couldn't find him initially.  Then later on

       2   when I found him, I told him about the arrest.

       3   Q.  When did you contact the lawyer?

       4   A.  The following day when I went with Khalid Fawwaz to the

       5   jail, or to the prison, and he was arrested, he told me to

       6   contact a lawyer.

       7   Q.  By the way, what was the amount of this bribe that was

       8   paid?

       9   A.  $3,000.

      10   Q.  Sir, I believe that you told the jury that you were raised

      11   in the Muslim faith, is that correct?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  And it would be fair to say that you are familiar with the

      14   traditional greeting that one Muslim brother would give to

      15   another upon seeing him, is that correct?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  Would it be fair to say, sir, that the greeting is in fact

      18   one where you embrace each other, is that correct?

      19   A.  It depends.  It depends on what country you are from.

      20   Q.  Has it been your experience while you were a member of Al

      21   Qaeda for other members of Al Qaeda, for other brothers of Al

      22   Qaeda to greet each other in an embrace?

      23   A.  Sometimes yes, especially if he has come back from a trip.

      24   Q.  Especially if it is somebody that you knew well, isn't

      25   that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  That embrace would involve a hug, am I correct?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And it also would involve from the left side of the head,

       5   right, putting your head on the left side and on the right

       6   side, is that correct, with the cheeks touching; isn't that

       7   correct?

       8   A.  Sometimes not always.

       9   Q.  Not always, but in these instances that I am talking

      10   about, it would be an embrace and a hug, and three times on

      11   the left side, three times on the right side; is that not

      12   correct?

      13            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      14            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      15   A.  Sometimes.  It depends on what country you are from.

      16   Other times you just shake hands.

      17   Q.  I am talking about those times when you do the embrace.

      18   Is it as I have described?

      19   A.  It could be.  Possible.

      20   Q.  Sir, have you ever greeted one of your brothers in that

      21   fashion?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  In 1991, you traveled to Afghanistan, is that correct?

      24            THE INTERPRETER:  Pardon me.

      25   Q.  In 1991 you traveled to Afghanistan, is that correct?

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       1   A.  Correct.

       2   Q.  It was your understanding as a Muslim that it was your

       3   obligation and duty to go to Afghanistan and participate in

       4   the fight against the Soviets.

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  Sir, when you arrived in Afghanistan, isn't it a fact that

       7   all of your travel documents were taken from you?

       8   A.  Nobody took it from me by force.  I handed it over to an

       9   office.

      10   Q.  It was a requirement that you surrender your travel

      11   documents, isn't that correct?

      12   A.  Just so that it would not get lost in the camp.

      13   Q.  Sir, did you get your travel documents back?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  And you didn't get them back until you left Afghanistan,

      16   isn't that correct?

      17   A.  Almost.

      18   Q.  Almost correct?

      19   A.  I don't quite recall exactly when I got back my travel

      20   documents.

      21   Q.  So it's not almost, you just don't know when you got them

      22   back.

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Sir, you said that you knew this gentleman, Mohamed Odeh,

      25   from Afghanistan, isn't that correct?

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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  And you know Mr. Odeh initially from the time that you

       3   spent in the Khost area camps, isn't that correct?

       4   A.  In which camp?

       5   Q.  Didn't you tell the jury that it was from the al Farouq

       6   calm?  Isn't that what you told the jury?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  Isn't it a fact that you had traveled to Afghanistan with

       9   a veterinarian who Mr. Fitzgerald referred to as the animal

      10   doctor; isn't that correct?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  Sir, isn't it a fact that when your friend the

      13   veterinarian left al Farouq camp, that Mohamed Odeh became

      14   medical officer for that camp?

      15   A.  Would you kindly repeat the question again.

      16   Q.  Certainly.  Isn't it a fact, sir, that when your friend

      17   the veterinarian left al Farouq camp, that Mohamed Odeh became

      18   the medical officer for that camp?

      19   A.  I do not recall that he became the doctor.

      20   Q.  Not the doctor, but he was the person who was responsible

      21   for assisting people medically, isn't that correct?

      22   A.  I do not recall, but it could very well be so.

      23   Q.  That's something that you may not know, right?

      24   A.  That's true, I do not know.

      25   Q.  Sir, when you went to Afghanistan, how many years did you

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       1   remain in Afghanistan?

       2   A.  It could very well be '91 and '92.

       3   Q.  And, sir, when did you first learn of Al Qaeda?

       4   A.  I learned about it in the camp, but after I graduate from

       5   the Farouq.

       6   Q.  That was sometime in mid-to late 1992, isn't that correct?

       7   A.  It was right after I finished my training and it could

       8   have very well been in April 1992.

       9            (Continued on next page)

      10

      11

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

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       1            MR. WILFORD:  Thank you.  This is a convenient point

       2   to break, your Honor.

       3            THE COURT:  Very well, we will take our midafternoon

       4   recess.

       5            (Jury excused)

       6            THE COURT:  I have been receiving notes from the jury

       7   thanking for my courtesy and consideration and their somewhat

       8   improved living conditions.  So the crisis of last week seems

       9   to have been resolved.  We will take a five-minute recess.

      10            If you want to make this a prayer break, we will make

      11   this a prayer break.

      12            (Recess)

      13            (Witness resumed)

      14            (Jury present)

      15            THE COURT:  Mr. Wilford, you may continue.

      16            MR. WILFORD:  Thank you, your Honor.

      17   BY MR. WILFORD:

      18   Q.  Mr. Kherchtou, I believe when we took the break we were

      19   discussing when it was that you first went to Afghanistan,

      20   isn't that correct?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Sir, you informed the jury that you first learned about Al

      23   Qaeda when you had completed your time in the camp around

      24   April of 1992, is that correct?

      25   A.  April 1991.

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       1   Q.  1991.

       2   A.  Correct.

       3   Q.  You are positive about that date?

       4   A.  Exactly.

       5   Q.  Isn't it a fact, sir, that at the time that you learned

       6   about Al Qaeda you were informed of the full name of Al Qaeda;

       7   isn't that correct?

       8   A.  When I took my bayat, they explained to me what is the Al

       9   Qaeda and all the details pertaining to it.

      10   Q.  Did they tell you the full name of Al Qaeda?

      11   A.  Up till now I only know that it is the Qaeda.

      12   Q.  And that means the base.

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Sir, when you found out about Al Qaeda in 1991, isn't it a

      15   fact that members of Al Qaeda had already gone to Somalia?

      16   A.  At that time I did not know that.

      17   Q.  You found out later though, isn't that correct?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And you knew that they had gone there sometime in 1991,

      20   isn't that correct?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Isn't it also a fact, sir, that it is your understanding

      23   that the members of Al Qaeda who went to Somalia went there

      24   with religious justification?

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1   Q.  Sir, I just want to digress for one moment.  You were

       2   asked some questions by Mr. Schmidt concerning the Shiite and

       3   Sunni Muslims, isn't that correct?  Do you remember those?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Sir, would it be fair to say that the difference between

       6   the Sunni Muslim and the Shiite Muslims is fundamental?

       7   A.  There is a difference in certain things.

       8   Q.  And it is a very deep difference, isn't that correct?

       9   A.  It's very difficult to understand -- it will be very

      10   difficult for you to understand the difference.

      11   Q.  I wouldn't understand it because I'm not Muslim, is that

      12   correct?

      13   A.  Correct.

      14   Q.  But it would be fair to say that even though I'm not

      15   Muslim, that you can tell this jury that there are some very

      16   basic differences between Sunni and Shiite Muslims.

      17   A.  Possibly I can explain.

      18   Q.  You said possibly you can explain?

      19   A.  Yes, I can.

      20   Q.  Would you like to have the opportunity to explain?

      21   A.  The difference between the Sunni and the Shiite is the

      22   prophesy.  It's the prophesy that came down, descended from

      23   heaven.

      24   Q.  Thank you.

      25   A.  Excuse me.  It wasn't finished yet.

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       1   Q.  I am sorry.

       2   A.  It's a long story.  Do you want me to go on?

       3   Q.  No, I don't want the long story.  There are differences in

       4   the beliefs of the Sunni and the Shiite and they are very

       5   difficult for them to get along because of those differences;

       6   is that a fair statement?

       7   A.  That is true.

       8   Q.  When you left Afghanistan, you went to the Sudan with

       9   other members of Al Qaeda including Bin Laden, is that

      10   correct?

      11   A.  When I left Afghanistan I went to Kenya, and from Kenya to

      12   Sudan.

      13   Q.  So you went to Kenya first?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  You lived in Kenya for two years and then you went to the

      16   Sudan?

      17   A.  No.  I have mentioned before that I went to Kenya, I

      18   stayed there for a short period of time, and from there I went

      19   on to the Sudan.

      20   Q.  And when you finally arrived in the Sudan, you were there

      21   with Al Qaeda, Bin Laden, and the other members of Al Qaeda,

      22   isn't that correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Sir, would it be fair to say that Bin Laden as a person

      25   almost became a symbol, an entity in the Arab world, in the

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       1   Muslim world?  Would that be fair to say?

       2            MR. FITZGERALD:  Can we have a time frame?

       3            MR. WILFORD:  Certainly.

       4   Q.  By the time you had arrived in the Sudan, by the time Bin

       5   Laden arrived in the Sudan, would it be fair to say that he

       6   was a symbol to the Muslim world?

       7   A.  After he had left Sudan, he became a symbol to the Muslim

       8   world.

       9   Q.  Not when he was in the Sudan?

      10   A.  When he was in Sudan, not that many people heard of him.

      11   Q.  Sir, isn't it a fact that Bin Laden, as far as you knew,

      12   entered into agreements with a number of organizations and

      13   persons that were personal to him and had nothing to do with

      14   the membership of Al Qaeda?

      15            THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me, can you kindly repeat,

      16   because it's a long sentence to remember without having a

      17   notebook.

      18            MR. WILFORD:  Would you like some paper?

      19            THE INTERPRETER:  No, it's OK.

      20   Q.  Isn't it a fact that Bin Laden entered into agreements

      21   with a number of organizations and persons that were personal

      22   to him and had nothing to do with the membership of Al Qaeda?

      23   A.  This happened after he had gone to Afghanistan.

      24   Q.  Isn't it a fact, sir, that the goals of Bin Laden and the

      25   goals of the membership of Al Qaeda were not synonymous at all

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       1   times?

       2   A.  That is true.

       3   Q.  Would it be fair to say that the goals of Bin Laden

       4   evolved in a different direction over time?

       5   A.  That is true.

       6   Q.  And would it be fair, sir, to say that the membership of

       7   Al Qaeda did not share those views as they evolved in a more

       8   and more radical direction?

       9   A.  At the beginning, yes.

      10   Q.  Isn't it a fact that members of Al Qaeda openly disagreed

      11   with Bin Laden as well as each other?

      12   A.  Sometimes, yes.

      13            (Continued on next page)

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

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       1   Q.  Now, when these disagreements occurred they were based

       2   upon whether or not Bin Laden's actions or decisions were

       3   Islamically correct.  Isn't that a fact?

       4            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you kindly repeat the question,

       5   again?

       6   Q.  Yes.  When these disagreements occurred, isn't it a fact

       7   that they were based upon whether or not the actions and

       8   decisions of Bin Laden were determined to be Islamically

       9   correct?

      10   A.  These decisions were, it is not in accordance with Islam,

      11   yes.

      12   Q.  For instance, the killing of children, women and innocent

      13   civilians is not Islamically correct, isn't that a fact?

      14   A.  That is correct.

      15   Q.  And if Bin Laden or anyone else issued a fatwa that

      16   involved the killing of women, children and innocent civilians

      17   you wouldn't be a part of that.  Is that correct?

      18   A.  That's true, I would not agree with.

      19   Q.  And there were many other members of al Qaeda who would

      20   not have agreed to participate or accepted any such fatwas?

      21   A.  Everybody would look into his faith.  If one believes that

      22   this is not in accordance with Islam, so everyone depends on

      23   his faith.

      24   Q.  Well, sir, I understand that, but I want to ask you again.

      25   Isn't it a fact that there were a lot of members of al Qaeda

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       1   who did not accept any fatwa that directed the killing of

       2   innocent women, children and civilians?

       3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to foundation, your Honor.

       4            THE COURT:  Ask him if he knows.

       5   Q.  Do you know that to be true, sir?

       6   A.  This fatwa appeared or came about after they went to

       7   Afghanistan.  The number of the people who were present in

       8   Sudan was, very, very limited, very, very small.  So that was

       9   not an indication that they were against Bin Laden or his

      10   fatwas.

      11   Q.  I'm sorry.  I didn't hear the last part.

      12   A.  This was not an indication that they were against Bin

      13   Laden or his fatwas.

      14   Q.  Sir, isn't it a fact that when you were being questioned

      15   by American agents you told them that there were many members

      16   of al Qaeda who would not volunteer to follow fatwa that

      17   involved the killing of innocent civilians.  Isn't that a

      18   fact?

      19   A.  I said they would not be in agreement with this fatwa

      20   because this is against Islam.

      21   Q.  They would not?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  There came a time did it not that you left al Qaeda?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  When you were a part of al Qaeda you knew, however, that

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   secrecy was an integral part of al Qaeda?

       2   A.  Correct.

       3   Q.  And isn't it a fact that people in al Qaeda wouldn't know

       4   what other people who were members of al Qaeda were doing,

       5   although they were all members of al Qaeda?

       6   A.  Sometimes.

       7   Q.  Isn't it a fact that there is or was no hierarchical

       8   structure to al Qaeda?

       9   A.  There was, there was.

      10   Q.  I'm sorry?

      11   A.  There was hierarchy in al Qaeda.

      12   Q.  There was?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Did you ever tell the authorities that you were speaking

      15   to that there was none?

      16   A.  What do you mean by hierarchy?

      17   Q.  Somebody at the top, somebody at the bottom.

      18   A.  Initially when one saw the hierarchy, one just kept quiet

      19   because one was serving God.

      20   Q.  Now, sir, isn't it a fact that Mr. Odeh engaged in the

      21   fishing business in Kenya to support himself?

      22            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, foundation.

      23            THE COURT:  Yes.  Does he know.

      24   Q.  Well, sir, is it a fact that that's what you told the

      25   American authorities when you were interviewed that Mr. Odeh

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       1   engage in the fishing business in Kenya to support himself?

       2   A.  To support himself and others in Mombasa.

       3   Q.  And it's the obligation of one Muslim to help another

       4   Muslim, isn't that correct?

       5   A.  Correct.

       6   Q.  Now, sir, did you tell the jury that you left al Qaeda

       7   because of refusal to pay for medical bills that had been

       8   incurred by your wife?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Sir, isn't it a fact that you signed a document declaring

      11   that you had left al Qaeda?

      12   A.  It was a document stating that I got all my rights from al

      13   Qaeda and that they owe me nothing.

      14   Q.  Isn't it a fact that after you signed that document you

      15   still maintained contact with people who were members of al

      16   Qaeda?

      17   A.  Correct, because a friendship between myself and members

      18   of al Qaeda continued.

      19   Q.  And isn't it a fact that when you traveled to Kenya from

      20   the Sudan that you met with members of al Qaeda in June of

      21   1998?

      22   A.  I met only with Harun.

      23   Q.  Harun was a member of al Qaeda, isn't that correct?

      24   A.  Yes, Harun, yes, is a member of al Qaeda.

      25   Q.  And you met with him to talk with him, isn't that correct?

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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  Did you meet with Kawhil at that time?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And isn't it a fact that when you returned to Kenya in

       5   August of 1998 you sought to meet with members of al Qaeda?

       6            THE INTERPRETER:  199O?

       7   Q.  '8.  August of 1998.

       8   A.  Saw or visited with?

       9   Q.  You were trying to find a room, isn't that correct?

      10   A.  Correct.

      11   Q.  And you did in fact meet with a member of al Qaeda on the

      12   very day that the United States embassy was bombed, isn't that

      13   correct?

      14   A.  No, I did not meet anybody.

      15   Q.  You didn't meet with anybody?

      16   A.  Met somebody from al Quaeda?

      17   Q.  Well, who did you meet with on the day that the United

      18   States embassy was bombed?

      19   A.  Ahmed Sawil came to me at the hotel.

      20   Q.  And Sawil is an associate of al Qaeda, isn't that correct?

      21   A.  No, he's not a member of al Qaeda.

      22   Q.  I didn't ask if he was a member.  I asked if he was an

      23   associate.  Did he do things with members of al Qaeda?

      24   A.  Yes, he does have friends in al Qaeda.

      25   Q.  Didn't you call Harun on the day that the embassy was

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       1   bombed?

       2   A.  The evening of the, the evening.  It happened on Thursday

       3   and the embassy was bombed on Friday.

       4   Q.  So you called the night before?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  When you met with Sawil on the day of the bombing you were

       7   very afraid, weren't you?

       8   A.  Yes, that something normal.

       9   Q.  And you weren't afraid because you had done anything

      10   wrong, were you?

      11   A.  That's correct, but my presence in this country was drive

      12   me to be afraid.

      13   Q.  Well, you didn't know about the bombing before it

      14   occurred, did you?

      15   A.  If I had known I would not have gone there.

      16   Q.  So the answer is no then.

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And you didn't participate in the bombing, did you?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Yet you were still afraid, isn't that correct?

      21   A.  Correct.

      22   Q.  And isn't it a fact that the reason that you were afraid

      23   is that you believed your very association with al Qaeda

      24   members, even though you yourself were no longer a member, was

      25   enough to cast suspicion on you such that you would be subject

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       1   to arrest or worse at the hands of the Kenya authorities?

       2   A.  That is true.

       3   Q.  Now, sir, when you were arrested and detained in Kenya

       4   yourself, and you spoke with a member of a foreign service

       5   isn't that correct that was neither Kenyan or American, isn't

       6   that correct?

       7            THE INTERPRETER:  That was neither Kenyan nor

       8   American?

       9            MR. WILFORD:  Yes.

      10   A.  Correct.

      11   Q.  And, sir, when you spoke with that individual isn't it a

      12   fact that that interview was recorded?

      13   A.  Yes, it was recorded, that is true.

      14   Q.  You saw the tape recorder sitting right in front of you as

      15   you were talking to this individual, isn't that correct?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  Now, sir, when you were being questioned at a later time

      18   by American officials this questioning took place over a

      19   period of days, if not weeks, isn't that correct?

      20   A.  Almost two weeks.

      21   Q.  And during that two-week time period while you were being

      22   questioned, hypothetical questions were being posed to you,

      23   isn't that correct?

      24   A.  A lot of questions.

      25   Q.  Well, they were asking you a lot of questions that were

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       1   asking you to suppose a particular fact, and then give an

       2   answer.  Isn't that correct?

       3   A.  The questions were many, many questions and they were not

       4   hypothetical.  They were concentrating on the incident and the

       5   events and facts themselves.

       6   Q.  Well, were you asked a question, could Bin Laden have been

       7   involved in a bombing in Yemen?  Wasn't that a hypothetical

       8   question, sir?

       9            THE COURT:  Oh, no, let's not.

      10            MR. WILFORD:  Okay, I'll move on, Judge, no problem.

      11   Q.  Sir, you were asked that question, though, weren't you?

      12   A.  The question that was posed that could not or hypothetical

      13   is, did you hear anything special about the incident in Yemen.

      14   Q.  Didn't they go further and ask you, not only did you hear

      15   anything, but could Bin Laden have been involved?

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.

      17            THE COURT:  No, I'll allow it.  Was he asked that

      18   question.

      19   A.  I don't precisely remember the questions.  I believe that

      20   they have the questions written down.  I don't recall the

      21   exact question.

      22   Q.  By the way, when you were speaking with the Americans did

      23   you see any tape recorder?

      24   A.  No.

      25   Q.  I want to turn, if I might, back to when you were a member

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       1   of al Qaeda and living in Kenya.

       2            There was a time that Abu Hafs, Abu al Amakkee, Abu

       3   al Amriki, Anas al Liby --

       4            THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me.  There is nobody by the

       5   name of Abu Amriki according to him.

       6   Q.  Ali Mohammed.

       7   A.  Abu Amriki is the father of the American.  There is nobody

       8   by that name.

       9   Q.  Okay.  Then let's do it this way.  There was a time when

      10   five people came to visit you while you had an apartment in

      11   Nairobi, right?

      12   A.  Five people came to Nairobi, not five of them came to

      13   visit me at one time.

      14   Q.  Okay, good.  Could you tell the jury the other four people

      15   besides Abu Hafs who came to Nairobi?

      16   A.  Abu half el Masry, Abu Amriki, Anas al Liby, Hamza al

      17   Liby.

      18   Q.  Now, of those five people three of them came to your

      19   apartment and developed pictures during the day, isn't that

      20   correct?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Could you tell the jury who these three people were?

      23   A.  Abu Al Amriki, Anas al Liby, Hamza al Liby.

      24   Q.  Did Abu Hafs and Fadal Makkee ever come to your apartment?

      25            THE INTERPRETER:  Came to?

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       1            MR. WILFORD:  His apartment.

       2   A.  They came at different times.

       3   Q.  But the fact is that they came to your apartment during

       4   the day and they stayed at a hotel at night.  Isn't that

       5   correct?

       6   A.  They came and it was lunchtime, we had lunch together.

       7   Q.  And they didn't just have a lunch, right?  They developed

       8   pictures in your apartment.  Isn't that correct?

       9            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.  Specify who?

      10            THE COURT:  Yes.

      11            MR. WILFORD:  I'm sorry.

      12            THE COURT:  It's not clear who you're questioning

      13   about now.

      14   Q.  The three people who did the surveillance came to your

      15   apartment in the daytime, they didn't just have lunch, they

      16   developed the pictures in your apartment, isn't that correct?

      17   A.  You asked me before Abu Hafs Amriki and Abu al Amriki

      18   initially and I told you, yes they came and they had, we, they

      19   had lunch with me.  And then you asked me about, and you asked

      20   me prior to that about the three others.

      21   Q.  So now, sir, I'm asking you about the three people who

      22   took pictures and had developed them in your apartment.

      23   That's what they did, isn't that correct?

      24   A.  That's correct.

      25   Q.  And when they finished developing the pictures they went

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       1   to a hotel and that's where they stayed, isn't that correct?

       2   A.  That is correct.

       3   Q.  And that was where they slept of night?  No one slept in

       4   your apartment.  They stayed in a hotel, isn't that correct?

       5   A.  For one reason, there was no space.

       6   Q.  For whatever reason, they stayed in a hotel?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8            MR. WILFORD:  Thank you.  Nothing further.

       9            THE COURT:  All right.  We'll call it a day then.

      10   We're adjourned until tomorrow morning.

      11            (Continued on next page)

      12

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       1            (Jury not present)

       2            THE COURT:  Mr. Fitzgerald, you sent the Court a copy

       3   of a letter dated February 22, and counsel, with respect to

       4   articles you plan to offer and requesting that if there were

       5   any objections you'd be advised by Friday.  Did you receive

       6   any objections?

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  I've sent a lot of letters, Judge.

       8   Was it signed by my name or my colleague's name?

       9            MR. KARAS:  Relating to articles appearing in Al-Quds

      10   al-Arabi.  No, your Honor, there have been no objections.  We

      11   have the stipulation ready to go on the February 98.

      12            THE COURT:  All right.

      13            MR. COHN:  I have a couple of motions in limine which

      14   are not rocket science, but we should take up that morning

      15   whenever that is.

      16            THE COURT:  I understand you want to confer with your

      17   client and the Marshal permitted you to confer with your

      18   client.

      19            MR. COHN:  I just wanted to advise the Court.

      20            THE COURT:  Anything that I should take up now?

      21            MR. FITZGERALD:  One second.

      22            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, the only thing that we don't

      23   need to take up now but we wanted to advise the Court we have

      24   not been able to work out a stipulation with respect to a

      25   witness that will authenticate the documents taken from El

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       1   Hage's computer.  Depending on who that witness is going to be

       2   we may be making an in limine motion as soon as we determine

       3   that, which we hope to do at the end of today.  We will advise

       4   of course counsel and the Court.

       5            THE COURT:  Very well.

       6            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'm waiting for information from the

       7   government to make a determination if I am going to make in

       8   limine motion as to one of the documents the government is

       9   going to produce.

      10            THE COURT:  All right.  Great expectations, but

      11   nothing that is presently ripe for ajudication.  We're

      12   adjourned until tomorrow.

      13            (Adjourned to 10 a.m., Tuesday, February 27, 2001)

      14

      15

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      17

      18

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      20

      21

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       1

       2                        INDEX OF EXAMINATION

       3   Witness                    D      X      RD     RX

       4   L'HOUSSAINE KHERCHTOU...1348

       5   ..................................1349

       6                         DEFENDANT EXHIBITS

       7   Exhibit No.                                     Received

       8    D ..........................................1443

       9

      10

      11

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      13

      14

      15

      16

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      18

      19

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      21

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                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300

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