20 February 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.

This is the transcript of Day 7 of the trial.

See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm

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       1   UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
           SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
       2   ------------------------------x

       3   UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

       4              v.                           S(7) 98 Cr. 1023

       5   USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

       6                  Defendants.

       7   ------------------------------x

       8
                                                   New York, N.Y.
       9                                           February 20, 2001
                                                   9:50 a.m.
      10

      11

      12   Before:

      13                       HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

      14                                           District Judge

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

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       1                            APPEARANCES

       2   MARY JO WHITE
                United States Attorney for the
       3        Southern District of New York
           BY:  PATRICK FITZGERALD
       4        KENNETH KARAS
                PAUL BUTLER
       5        Assistant United States Attorneys

       6
           ANTHONY L. RICCO
       7   EDWARD D. WILFORD
           CARL J. HERMAN
       8   SANDRA A. BABCOCK
                Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
       9
           FREDRICK H. COHN
      10   DAVID P. BAUGH
           LAURA GASIOROWSKI
      11        Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali

      12   DAVID STERN
           DAVID RUHNKE
      13        Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

      14
           SAM A. SCHMIDT
      15   JOSHUA DRATEL
           KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
      16        Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

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       1            (Trial resumed)

       2            THE COURT:  Before I bring in the jury, is there any

       3   matter that has to be taken up?

       4            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I just want to express to

       5   the court and the government what I plan to do in

       6   cross-examination related to possible classified documents.  I

       7   don't think that the cross-examination itself is going to be

       8   an issue, but the answers of the witness may present issues,

       9   and I want to present that to the court.  I set forth my

      10   position in my letter last week.

      11            THE COURT:  You are alerting the court to your

      12   reservation of a right subsequent to the conclusion of the

      13   cross-examination of the witness to renew applications with

      14   respect to discovery or declassification of material that you

      15   have been furnished?  Is that your concern?

      16            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I don't know that it would

      17   be appropriate to call it reserving my rights under it.  I

      18   raised this issue before.  I plan to go into some questions,

      19   and I think that that already entails some CIPA issues, and I

      20   want to make sure that there is no violation of CIPA by my

      21   questioning.

      22            THE COURT:  When the parties were last before the

      23   court, which I believe was last Thursday morning, I restated

      24   very explicitly what I believed the procedures to be with

      25   respect to cross-examination of the witness and any reference

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       1   to material which the government stated was classified.  You

       2   have read those.

       3            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes.

       4            THE COURT:  Very well.  We will proceed on that

       5   basis, and if you have an application to make after you have

       6   completed your cross and before resumption of redirect, if

       7   there is to be any redirect, I will give you an opportunity to

       8   address the court.

       9            (Jury present)

      10            THE COURT:  Good morning.  I hope you all enjoyed

      11   your holiday weekend.  You recall we are in the midst of the

      12   reading of the grand jury questioning of the defendant El

      13   Hage, and we will resume.

      14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, we are starting at page

      15   167, line 9.

      16   "Q.  Have you ever been to Somalia?

      17   "A.  Yes.

      18   "Q.  Have you ever brought any money to Somalia?

      19   "A.  No.

      20   "Q.  Do you know Abu Talha, T-A-L-H-A-A, Sudani?

      21   "A.  Yes.

      22   "Q.  How do you know Abu Talha a Sudani?

      23   "A.  He was working also in the same company in Sudan.

      24   "Q.  What did he do for Bin Laden's company in the Sudan?

      25   "A.  Different jobs.  He was a driver and he was marketing

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       1   inside Sudan for the different products.

       2   "Q.  And did he fight in Afghanistan?

       3   "A.  I don't remember.  I don't know.

       4   "Q.  Did he do any military work for Bin Laden?

       5   "A.  I don't know.

       6   "Q.  Do you know if Abu Talha a Sudani knew Azmarai?

       7   "A.  I don't know.

       8   "Q.  Did he know Abu Hajer?

       9   "A.  Yes.

      10   "Q.  How do you know Abu Talha knew Abu Hajer?

      11   "A.  We all were in the same company at the same time in

      12   Khartoum.

      13   "Q.  Did you work on the same floor?

      14   "A.  It is only one floor.

      15   "Q.  Did Abu Talha ever go to Somalia, to your knowledge?

      16   "A.  I don't know.

      17   "Q.  Did you ever hear about Abu Talha going to Somalia?

      18   "A.  No.

      19   "Q.  Did you ever hear anyone indicate that Usama Bin Laden

      20   was responsible for the US military people killed in Somalia

      21   in 1993?

      22   "A.  In his last statement on the CNN, he said so.

      23   "Q.  Did you ever hear anyone else indicate that before?

      24   "A.  No.

      25   "Q.  Did you ever know if Abu Talha ever went to the

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       1   Philippines?

       2   "A.  No.

       3   "Q.  Did you ever go to the Philippines?

       4   "A.  No.

       5   "Q.  Did you ever move weapons from one country to another?

       6   "A.  No.

       7   "Q.  Outside the United States, had you ever moved weapons

       8   within a country?

       9   "A.  No.

      10   "Q.  Even a gun?

      11   "A.  Even a gun.

      12   "Q.  You carried a gun in Pakistan, right?

      13   "A.  Yes.

      14   "Q.  You carried a gun in Afghanistan?

      15   "A.  Yes.

      16   "Q.  Did you carry guns anywhere else?

      17   "A.  In the States, in Arizona.

      18   "Q.  How about the Sudan?

      19   "A.  No, never.

      20   "Q.  Have you ever carried explosives anywhere in the world?

      21   "A.  No.

      22   "Q.  Have you ever paid money to someone, understanding that

      23   the money was being used for explosives?

      24   "A.  No.

      25   "Q.  You had a financial transaction with Bin Laden in the

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       1   summer.  When was the last financial transaction you had with

       2   Bin Laden before the money he sent to you for the malaria

       3   control project?

       4   "A.  There was only two times that he sent money.  One time it

       5   was $7,000, and this last time was $10,000.

       6   "Q.  And what did he send you the $7,000 for?

       7   "A.  Also a project.

       8   "Q.  And what project was that?

       9   "A   The needy people in Mombasa.

      10   "Q.  In Mombasa?

      11   "A.  Yes.

      12   "Q.  Who was the person -- did you take the money from Bin

      13   Laden and give it to the needy people in Mombasa?

      14   "A.  It was transferred to my account in Kenya.

      15   "Q.  Then what did you do with the money?

      16   "A.  Transferred it for the needy people in Mombasa.

      17   "Q.  And who did you transfer it to?

      18   "A.  I went myself, me and Haroun, we went to Mombasa.

      19   Q.  And so you got a wire transfer from Usama Bin Laden to

      20   your bank account in Kenya for $7,000 and then you took the

      21   cash out?

      22   "A.  Yes.

      23   "Q.  And brought it to Mombasa?

      24   "A.  Yes.

      25   "Q.  Who did you give it to in Mombasa?

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       1   "A.  The needy people at the special event, Islamic event.

       2   "Q.  Even needy people have names.  Do you have a name?  You

       3   gave it to someone.

       4   "A.  Didn't give it to one individual.

       5   "Q.  You handed it out?

       6   "A.  Yes.

       7   "Q.  Who were the partisans in Mombasa?

       8   "A.  Excuse me?

       9   "Q.  The partisans in Mombasa?

      10   "A   The partisans?  I am sorry, I don't know what does that

      11   mean.  What does the word mean?

      12   "Q.  Were there people fighting in Mombasa?

      13   "A.  Fighting?  No.

      14   "Q.  Have there been recent attacks in Mombasa against

      15   tourists on the beach?

      16   "A.  No, not against tourists.

      17   "Q.  Who were the attacks against?

      18   "A.  It was ethnic fighting.

      19   "Q.  And who was fighting in the ethnic fighting in Mombasa?

      20   "A.  I don't know who was it.  The government doesn't know.

      21   Just says that bandits were attacking certain localities and

      22   killing people.  They don't even know what is the motive

      23   behind it.

      24   "Q.  And when was it that you brought the $7,000 down to

      25   Mombasa?

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       1   "A.  Sometime in 1996.  I can't recall.

       2   "Q.  You just brought $7,000 in what currency?

       3   "A.  Kenyan shillings.

       4   "Q.  Kenyan shillings?

       5   "A.  Yes.

       6   "Q.  How did you hand it out?  People showed up and you --

       7   "A.  Haroun knows the needy localities, and when went to

       8   distribute it.  Special --

       9   "Q   Sorry?

      10   "A.  It is a special.

      11   "Q.  And the end of Ramadan?

      12   "A.  In Ramadan, and we have two times every year.

      13   "Q.  Did you keep a record of who you gave the money to?

      14   "A.  No.  Just depended on Haroun is known by the people over

      15   there.

      16   "Q.  Do you know any of the names of the people in Mombasa

      17   that Haroun indicated contact with in order to carry out this

      18   giving away of money?

      19   "A.  I know someone called Sheikh Sayyid.

      20   "Q.  Sheikh Sayyid?

      21   "A.  Yes.

      22   "Q.  Where is Sheikh Sayyid from?

      23   "A.  Kenya.

      24   "Q.  Any other names?

      25   "A.  He is the famous person that I know over there.

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       1   "Q.  Do you know a Khalid over there in Mombasa?

       2   "A.  Khalid?  It is either his son or his son-in-law.

       3   "Q.  Who is Khalid's son or son-in-law?  Sheikh Sayyid?

       4   "A.  Yes.

       5   "Q.  Was there anything illegal about the $7,000 that you and

       6   Haroun brought down to Mombasa?

       7   "A.  Anything illegal?

       8   "Q.  Yes.

       9   "A   No.

      10   "Q   Anything wrong with the $7,000 that you and Haroun

      11   brought down to Mombasa?

      12   "A.  I don't understand.  I don't think there was anything

      13   illegal about it.

      14   "Q.  Were you at all worried about that $7,000 that you and

      15   Haroun brought down to Mombasa?

      16   "A.  No.  Why should we be worried?

      17   "Q.  Was Haroun worried?

      18   "A.  I don't think so, no.  He was happy.

      19   "Q.  But when he heard that Madani Al Tayyib was talking to

      20   the government authorities, was Haroun worried about his

      21   contacts with the people in Mombasa?

      22   "A.  I don't know.  I wasn't around when he knew about this.

      23   I was in Pakistan then.

      24   "Q.  Did Haroun tell you that he broke off all contact with

      25   the people in Mombasa after Madani al Tayyib turned up in the

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       1   newspapers talking because he was afraid?

       2   "A.  He didn't tell me that.  In fact, he went to Mombasa.

       3   "Q.  Hasn't come back since, correct?

       4   "A.  He came back when I came back.  He went to Mombasa before

       5   I came back, and then we -- when he knew I came back, he came

       6   to Nairobi.

       7   "Q.  Where was he staying in Nairobi?

       8   "A.  I don't know, but I believe he would stay in the hotel in

       9   Eastleigh.

      10   "Q.  Where would he usually stay when he worked for you all

      11   that time in Nairobi?

      12   "A.  With me in my house.

      13   "Q.  When you last came back to Nairobi and he met him at your

      14   friend's house, where did he stay then?

      15   A.  I don't know where he stayed, but he probably in a hotel,

      16   like I said, in Eastleigh.

      17   "Q.  But he no longer stayed at your house?

      18   "A.  No, he was afraid.

      19   "Q.  Why was he afraid?

      20   "A.  Because he heard that the FBI people came over.

      21   "Q.  Now, when you were in Arizona, you knew Mubarak al

      22   Dousri?

      23   "A.  Yes.

      24   "Q  D-O-U-S-R-I?

      25   "A.  D-O-O-R-Y.

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       1   "Q.  And did Mubarak el Doory from Arizona turn out later to

       2   work for Usama Bin Laden?

       3   "A.  Yes, in his agricultural company in Sudan.

       4   "Q.  And when did he work for Usama Bin Laden in the Sudan?

       5   "A.  In '92.

       6   "Q.  And was he still working for Usama Bin Laden when you

       7   left the Sudan in 1994?

       8   "A.  Yes.

       9   "Q.  When was the last time you spoke with him?

      10   "A.  That year, '94.

      11   "Q.  When was the last time you saw him?

      12   "A.  That same year.

      13   "Q.  When you worked for Usama Bin Laden, in the Sudan, how

      14   much were you paid?

      15   "A.  $1,200.

      16   "Q.  Per?

      17   "A   Per month.

      18   "Q.  For How long did you work for him?

      19   "A.  Almost two years.

      20   "Q   What banks did he keep his money at?

      21   "A.  Bank el Shamar.

      22   "Q.  Any other banks?

      23   "A.  I think he had accounts in different banks, but I only

      24   recall Bank Shamar.

      25   "Q.  Did he keep any accounts in your name?

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       1   "A.  No, I had my own account.

       2   "Q.  The one at Girocredit in Vienna?

       3   "A.  No, no, in Sudan.

       4   "Q.  Your name?

       5   "A.  Yes.

       6   "Q.  That was for your money?

       7   "A.  Yes.

       8   "Q   Do you know Mohamed M-A-S-A-R-I?

       9   "A.  Yes.

      10   "Q.  Have you ever met him?

      11   "A.  No.

      12   "Q.  Do you know where Mohamed al Masari lives?

      13   "A.  He lives in England.

      14   "Q.  Do you know if he works with Bin Laden?

      15   "A.  I don't.

      16   "Q   Do you know Saad al Faqih, F-A-Q-I-H?

      17   "A.  I don't know him but I know he works with al Masari.

      18   "Q.  Are you familiar with the Committee of the Defense of

      19   Legitimate Rights, CDLR?

      20   "A.  I heard of it.

      21   "Q.  Do you know what its relationship is to Bin Laden?

      22   "A.  No, but they both are positioned against the Saudi

      23   government.

      24   "Q.  Do you know if Bin Laden is a member of CDLR?

      25   "A.  I don't.

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       1   "Q.  Do you know Dr. Abdullah Muhammad Yusuf?

       2   "A   No.

       3   "Q   Do you know Inb al Qattab?

       4   "A   Ibn?

       5   "Q   Ibn al Qattab?

       6   "A   Al Qattab.  Ibn al Qattab?  I heard the name.

       7   "Q   Where did you hear it?

       8   "A.  In Pakistan.

       9   "Q.  From whom?

      10   "A.  Different people, I can't recall whom exactly.

      11   "Q.  Have you ever met him?

      12   "A.  I don't remember meeting him.

      13   "Q.  Do you know Assadalla, A-S-S-A-D-A-L-L-A, al Sindi?

      14   "A.  Yes.

      15   "Q.  Where did you meet Assadalla al Sindi?

      16   "A.  I never met him, but I heard he works for Bin Laden.

      17   "Q.  What does he do for Bin Laden?

      18   "A.  I think business in Pakistan.

      19   "Q.  Business where?

      20   "A.  In Pakistan.

      21   "Q.  Pakistan?

      22   "A.  Yes.

      23   "Q.  Does he know Azmarai?

      24   "A.  I don't know.  He probably does.

      25   "Q.  Have you ever met Assadalla al Sindi yourself?

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       1   "A.  No, never.

       2   "Q.  Do you know Mohamed Jamal Khalifah?

       3   "A.  No.

       4   "Q.  Do you know Mohamed Amin al Sanani, S-A-N-A-N-I?

       5   "A.  No.

       6   "Q.  Can you tell us what the al Baraka files are,

       7   B-A-R-A-K-A?

       8   "A.  Al Baraka files?

       9   "Q.  Yes.

      10   "A.  I don't recall this name.

      11   "Q.  Do you recall maintaining the al Baraka files yourself?

      12   "A.  No, never.

      13   "Q.  Now, you have told this grand jury the last time you

      14   dealt with Usama Bin Laden the last time you worked for him

      15   was 1994.

      16   "A.  Yes.

      17   "Q.  That is the last time you have seen him?

      18   "A.  Yes.

      19   "Q.  I am going to ask you again so that the record is crystal

      20   clear that you have been warned, that to lie is punishable as

      21   perjury which you can spend five years in jail.  I want to be

      22   crystal clear you understood what my questions are.  I am

      23   going to ask you again.

      24   "A.  Yes.

      25   "Q.  Have you seen Usama Bin Laden anyplace in the world in

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       1   1995, 1996, or 1997?

       2   "A.  I haven't seen him anywhere after I left Sudan.

       3   "Q.  And after you left Sudan in what year?

       4   "A.  '94.

       5   "Q.  So it is your testimony that you have not seen Usama Bin

       6   Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996, or 997?

       7   "A.  Yes.

       8   "Q.  And you have not told anyone that you have seen Usama Bin

       9   Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996 or 1997?

      10   "A.  Yes.

      11   "Q.  I would ask the grand jurors, the foreperson, if we could

      12   tell Mr. El Hage that we would adjourn his testimony.  I don't

      13   know if we will have to follow up any further, but if he could

      14   see stay under subpoena and if we need to call him back, the

      15   foreperson can contact us and we will reach out and make the

      16   appropriate arrangements.

      17            "The foreperson:  Do you understand?

      18   "Q.  What I am suggesting to the foreperson is we break for

      19   the day, and if we decide we need further testimony from you,

      20   we will schedule it at a mutually convenient time at our

      21   expense.  But if we need to bring you back, we don't need to

      22   send someone to hand you a subpoena, we can call you up and

      23   say please come back again.  Do you understand that?

      24   "A.  Yes.

      25   "Q.  Does the foreperson so direct?

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       1            "The Foreperson:  You understood?

       2   "A   Yes.

       3            "The Foreperson:  You may be excused.

       4   "Q.  The last thing is, if there is any question you would

       5   like to change the answer to right now, this is your chance to

       6   do so.

       7   "A   Are we going to go over the questions?

       8   "Q   For whatever reason, if you came in here and told any

       9   lies, this is your chance to tell us you would like to take

      10   back an answer.  Otherwise, the record will be sealed, and for

      11   any false statements you could be prosecuted.  So I am giving

      12   you that answer.

      13   "A   No.

      14   "Q   OK, thank you.

      15            "(Witness excused.)

      16            "(Time noted, 3:44 p.m.

      17            "(Colloquy follows.)

      18            "Certificate.  State of New York, County of New York.

      19   I, Carey-Ann Rosenblatt hereby certify that the foregoing is a

      20   true and accurate transcript, to the best of my skill and

      21   ability from my stenographic notes of this proceeding.

      22   Carey-Ann Rosenblatt, acting grand jury reporter."

      23            THE COURT:  Thank you.

      24            MR. FITZGERALD:  Mr. Al-Fadl will be recalled to the

      25   stand for cross-examination.

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       1            THE COURT:  Very well.  You will recall that this

       2   witness has testified on direct and has been cross-examined on

       3   behalf of the defendants except the defendant El Hage, whose

       4   attorney was ill.  Mr. Schmidt has rejoined us and we will

       5   proceed then with the cross-examination on behalf of the

       6   defendant El Hage with the witness Jamal Ahmed Mohamed

       7   al-Fadl.

       8    JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL,

       9        recalled as a witness by the government,

      10        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

      11            THE COURT:  Is there a stand-by interpreter?

      12            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes.  Ms. Grant went to get the

      13   interpreter.  I have seen her with my own eyes.  We can start

      14   without her, but Ms. Grant went to get her.

      15            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I would prefer to have the

      16   interpreter present.

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  In case she is in the ladies' room,

      18   I don't know if we could borrow one of the interpreters from

      19   the back to start, if she is in the ladies' room.

      20            THE COURT:  Is there another interpreter available?

      21            MR. FITZGERALD:  Mr. Coudoni seems to be coming.

      22            (Andre Coudoni sworn as interpreter)

      23            (Continued on next page)

      24

      25

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                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   CROSS-EXAMINATION

       2   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

       3   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, did I pronounce that correctly?

       4   A.  What?

       5   Q.  Did I pronounce the name correctly?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  You began working in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden, is that

       8   correct?

       9   A.  Correct.

      10   Q.  What was the year that you first began doing work in the

      11   Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden?

      12   A.  I believe end of '89, the first time I went to Sudan.

      13   Q.  That was the first time after going to Afghanistan that

      14   you went to the Sudan, is that correct?

      15   A.  Correct.

      16   Q.  You were born and raised in the Sudan, correct?

      17   A.  Correct.

      18   Q.  You went from Afghanistan to Sudan at the bequest of

      19   Mr. Bin Laden, is that right?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  What was your role?  What did you do when you first went

      22   to the Sudan in 1989?

      23   A.  I remember we, me and other brother we went over there and

      24   we start to rent houses and establish companies for the group.

      25   Q.  In the Sudan back in 1989, was property required to be

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       1   owned by Sudanese?

       2   A.  Which Sudanese?

       3   Q.  Were foreigners allowed to own property in the Sudan?

       4   1989?

       5   A.  Yes.  Some property buy with money and some property from

       6   the government.

       7            MR. SCHMIDT:  Could you please interpret this

       8   question, please.

       9   Q.  In 1989, were foreigners allowed to own property in the

      10   Sudan?  (Interpreted)

      11   A.  I don't know the government rule, but we have agreement

      12   between the group and the government.  That's how he got the

      13   land.

      14   Q.  The properties that were first rented or purchased were in

      15   names of Sudanese, isn't that correct?

      16   A.  Yes, under my name.

      17   Q.  Are you aware that the Sudanese law required that property

      18   be held in the name of Sudanese businesses or persons?

      19   A.  Well, I rent it and some lands I bought it, and I think

      20   that's the law.

      21            MR. SCHMIDT:  Can you translate my question.

      22   Q.  Were you aware that Sudanese law required that property be

      23   held under the name of Sudanese or Sudanese businesses?

      24   (Interpreted)

      25   A.  (Through interpreter) Investment law permits that.

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       1   Q.  Permits what?

       2   A.  To buy land or houses or farms.

       3   Q.  Under the names of Sudanese persons or businesses, is that

       4   correct?

       5   A.  Under Sudanese, but for foreign people, no.

       6   Q.  For foreign use, but under the names of Sudanese persons

       7   or businesses, is that correct?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  How long did you remain in the Sudan when you first went

      10   over in 1989 to purchase or lease properties or start

      11   businesses?

      12   A.  I don't remember exactly, but I back and forth between

      13   Sudan and Pakistan, different times.

      14   Q.  What year was it when you moved back to the Sudan with

      15   Mr. Bin Laden?

      16   A.  When he come back from Pakistan to Sudan, I didn't come

      17   with him.

      18   Q.  You remained in Afghanistan?

      19   A.  Yes.  I went Sudan and I come back to Pakistan, because

      20   once in a while I go back and I tell him what going on in

      21   Sudan.

      22   Q.  When did you return to the Sudan to live?

      23   A.  Like I tell you, I go back and forth between Sudan and

      24   Pakistan.

      25   Q.  There came a time that you stopped going back and forth

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       1   from Afghanistan and Sudan and you stopped and you started to

       2   live in Sudan again.  When was that?

       3   A.  Yes.  I live in Sudan I think in '91, I went back to

       4   Pakistan, I come back again and in '92 I went back to Pakistan

       5   and I come back again.

       6   Q.  In 1991, how long did you go back to Pakistan?

       7   A.  Not more than two weeks.

       8   Q.  In 1992, how long did you go to Pakistan?

       9   A.  It could be week or 10 days.

      10   Q.  So other than these short trips, you lived in the Sudan,

      11   is that correct?

      12   A.  Correct, yes.

      13   Q.  When was it that you started to live in the Sudan, not

      14   counting the short trips to Pakistan?

      15   A.  It's hard to say because I'm always traveling.  I live in

      16   Sudan but always I go outside to Egypt, to Pakistan, to other

      17   countries, and I come back to Sudan.

      18   Q.  Did Mr. Bin Laden buy you a house when you returned to the

      19   Sudan?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  What year did he buy you a house?

      22   A.  I think that's in '92.

      23   Q.  And that was for you and your wife, is that correct?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Between 1989 and end of 1991, what jobs were you doing for

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       1   Mr. Bin Laden?

       2   A.  I switched from other things.  Like sometime I work from

       3   one, sometimes I work -- I don't have like one job.  So I

       4   switch from different companies, different jobs.

       5   Q.  Are you telling us that you worked for one company for one

       6   week and then you went to another company for another week and

       7   another association?

       8   A.  Yes sometimes tell me to do that job, go to Qadarif.  I do

       9   the trip.  Sometimes tell me to go to Damazine and Umduhrman.

      10   Q.  Mr. Fadl, you testified on direct examination at some

      11   point that you worked in an office at McNimr Street, is that

      12   correct?

      13   A.  That's correct, yes.

      14   Q.  When did you actually start sitting in an office and doing

      15   work in an office?

      16   A.  Since the first time I went to Sudan end of '89 and we

      17   established Wadi al Aqiq company.

      18   Q.  After you started the company, helped start the companies,

      19   helped lease property, were you based out of the office at

      20   McNimr Street?

      21   A.  Yes, I have office over there.

      22   Q.  Were you paid a salary through one of the companies in

      23   McNimr Street?

      24   A.  From Laden International Company and Taba Investment, and

      25   also I got another salary from the group.

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       1   Q.  No matter which company you were actually doing work

       2   for --

       3   A.  I work for all the companies.

       4   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, please let me finish my question.  No matter

       5   which company you were actually doing work for, you were being

       6   paid from the Taba or Laden International, is that correct?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  So if you went on a trip for one of the agricultural

       9   companies, you still would get the check, or the money from

      10   Taba, say, is that correct?

      11   A.  That is correct.

      12   Q.  In 1989, you purchased, you helped others lease property,

      13   bought property, started businesses; is that your testimony?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Other than doing these trips that you said, what other

      16   kind of work did you do in 1989, 1990, and 1991?

      17   A.  One time I did trip to Egypt from Pakistan.

      18   Q.  What else?

      19   A.  I work inside Sudan.  I went to the Damazine Camp, over

      20   there.  I buy sesame and beans from Khartoum Bari City.  I

      21   work in Damazine.  I got Islamic training in Soba farm for

      22   three weeks.  I got refresh training also in Tajj al Sirr

      23   Mustafa's guesthouse.

      24   Q.  Did there come a time that you became an assistant to a

      25   person that you call Abu Makkee, whose real name is Madani Al

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       1   Tayyib?

       2   A.  Yes, Madani al Tayyib Abu Fadhl al Makkee.

       3   Q.  I am going to call him Madani Tayyib.  You know what I am

       4   talking about?

       5   A.  OK.

       6   Q.  When did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?

       7   A.  First time I see him?  Is this your question?

       8   Q.  When did you become a business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?

       9   A.  First time I work with him in Afghanistan in '89.

      10   Q.  Mr. al Tayyib was running one of the companies in the

      11   Sudan, is that correct?

      12   A.  He is a supervisor for the whole business in Sudan, when

      13   he moved to Sudan.

      14   Q.  Did you become an assistant to him in the Sudan?

      15   A.  Yes, I work under him.

      16   Q.  What year did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib in

      17   the Sudan?

      18   A.  Maybe this area of '91.

      19   Q.  Prior to becoming the business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib,

      20   did you serve, other than what you mentioned, any other

      21   function in the Bin Laden companies?

      22   A.  Yes, I do other stuff.

      23   Q.  For example?

      24   A.  Like sometimes they tell me go to Pakistan, take this

      25   message.

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       1   Q.  OK.

       2   A.  I go Pakistan.  Sometimes --

       3   Q.  In the Sudan --

       4            THE COURT:  He hadn't finished his answer when you

       5   cut him off.

       6   A.  Madani Tayyib, he is a businessman, he runs the companies,

       7   but at the same time he work in the group.  Sometimes he give

       8   me business work, sometimes he tell me go get training.

       9   Sometimes he tell me those new people, go interview him.

      10   Sometimes he tell me go to Abu Abdallah Lubnani, we need

      11   Islamic training.  So whatever he tell me, he is my manager

      12   business, and at the same time he is my emir under the group.

      13   Q.  I am saying, between 1989, first time you came back to the

      14   Sudan and to the time that you became the special assistant to

      15   Mr. al Tayyib, have you basically told us every kind of work

      16   that you did in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  How long did you work as a special assistant to Mr. al

      19   Tayyib?

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      21   A.  Like I tell you --

      22            THE COURT:  Just a moment.

      23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Just objection to form.

      24            THE COURT:  Restate your question.

      25            MR. SCHMIDT:  Could we have it read back, please?

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       1            THE COURT:  Yes.

       2            (Record read)

       3            MR. FITZGERALD:  The same objection to form, to

       4   special.

       5            THE COURT:  To the special.  Objection as to your

       6   objection to describing special assistant as a term the

       7   witness is not familiar with.

       8   Q.  Have you described everything that you did in Sudan from

       9   the time that you returned to the Sudan in 1989 until the time

      10   you became an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  When you were working for Mr. al Tayyib, did you handled

      13   commercial business?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Could you tell us some of the products that were involved

      16   in the commercial business.

      17   A.  I arrange guesthouses, I buy farms and license for the

      18   companies.  I help people for traveling.

      19   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, were there certain products that Mr. al

      20   Tayyib and Taba were trying to sell or grow to sell?

      21   A.  Yes.  We sell sugar and palm oil and soap, we exchange

      22   foreign, the local bonds to foreign.  We buy peanuts and

      23   sesame, sunflower.

      24   Q.  There were farms that produced agricultural products, is

      25   that correct?

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       1   A.  Yes, in Damazine.

       2   Q.  Where were the tractors obtained?

       3   A.  Could you repeat the question.

       4   Q.  Where were the tractors obtained from?

       5   A.  The tractors?

       6   Q.  Yes.

       7   A.  In the farm, in Damazine.

       8   Q.  Where were the tractors purchased from?

       9   A.  Where we buy from?

      10   Q.  Yes.

      11   A.  I remember Abu Rida al Suri, he buy them from

      12   Czechoslovakia.

      13   Q.  Were there trucks used, both the construction company and

      14   the agricultural companies?

      15   A.  We have contract transportation.  It's a company just run

      16   the tractors.

      17   Q.  Were the trucks purchased from Russia?

      18   A.  Yes, from, I forget the name of the company now.

      19   Q.  Maz?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  Is that the name?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Who went to purchase the trucks?

      24   A.  I don't remember, but I think Abu Rida al Suri and

      25   Abdallah Lubnani.

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       1   Q.  One of the products that were grown by one of Mr. Bin

       2   Laden's companies was sesame, is that right?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And there was great effort made to sell the sesame

       5   throughout the world, is that correct?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  There was also white corn grown, is that correct?

       8   A.  Correct.

       9   Q.  Peanuts were grown, is that correct?

      10   A.  Correct.

      11   Q.  Sunflowers were grown, is that correct?

      12   A.  Correct.

      13   Q.  Wheat was grown, is that correct?

      14   A.  She help me.  I don't know what that mean.  (Interpreted)

      15            Yes.

      16   Q.  And there was a whole bunch of fruits and vegetables grown

      17   from one of the other companies, is that right?  Blessed

      18   Fruits, is that it?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Was there olive oil produced?

      21   A.  No.

      22   Q.  Was there other kinds of oil produced?

      23   A.  Yes, from sesame and peanuts.

      24   Q.  This is the early years we are talking about, 1990, 1991,

      25   right, '92?

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       1   A.  '93, '94.

       2   Q.  Part of your job and other people's job when you were

       3   working for Mr. al Tayyib was trying to find markets for these

       4   items, is that right?

       5   A.  Correct.

       6   Q.  And later on the items also included skins from the

       7   tannery, is that right?

       8   A.  Correct.

       9   Q.  There were fava beans, is that right?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  There was also -- now let's talk a little bit about the

      12   different companies that formed Mr. Bin Laden's enterprises.

      13   A.  OK.

      14   Q.  There were some local companies, like a bakery, is that

      15   right?

      16   A.  What?

      17   Q.  He had a bakery?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  He had the fruit and vegetable export company, is that

      20   correct?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  He had a Bank of Zoological Resource?

      23            (Interpreted)

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  That was to basically raise cattle?

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       1   A.  Yes, make good genes.

       2   Q.  And he invested quite a bit of money to try and raise good

       3   cattle and make hybrids.

       4   A.  Correct.

       5   Q.  How many people worked at the fruit and vegetable company?

       6   A.  It's run by somebody, his name Motasem al Saudi, but I

       7   don't know how many people.

       8   Q.  Do you know how many people worked at the Bank of

       9   Zoological Resource?

      10   A.  No.

      11   Q.  Do you know how many people worked at the bakery?

      12   A.  No.

      13   Q.  How many people worked at Laden International?

      14   A.  Maybe around 25 in that office in McNimr Street.

      15   Q.  How many people worked at the Altehmar al Mabuaraka,

      16   A-L-T-H-E-M-A-R, A-L, M-A-B-U-A-R-A-K-A?

      17   A.  A lot of people.  They got few people in office in

      18   Khartoum and people in the farm at Damazine.

      19   Q.  How about Blessed Fruits?  A lot of people worked there?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  Do you know how many?

      22   A.  No.

      23   Q.  What about Taba?

      24   A.  Taba and Laden and Qudurat Transportation, 25 people work

      25   in office.

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       1   Q.  How about the International al-Ikhlas Company, A-L,

       2   capital I-K-H-L-A-S?

       3   A.  Al-Ikhlas, in the office I think it's around 10 people do

       4   the business in the office.

       5   Q.  They manufactured sweets and honey, is that right?

       6   A.  Yes.  The factory in Kameen, not in Khartoum.

       7   Q.  Al-Ikhlas was the main company, mother company, the main

       8   company that owned most the of the other companies, right?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Mother company.

      11            How many people worked in just the offices involving

      12   al-Ikhlas?

      13   A.  Bin Laden himself, Sharif al Deen -- I think it could be

      14   around 15 or 20.

      15   Q.  Wadi al Aqiq is a name of a company, has nothing to do

      16   with Wadih El Hage, is that correct?

      17   A.  Could you repeat.

      18   Q.  The name Wadih El Hage has nothing to do with Wadi al

      19   Aqiq, is that correct?

      20   A.  No, I believe it's valley in Saudi Arabia belong to Bin

      21   Laden.

      22   Q.  How many people worked at the tanning company?

      23   A.  I don't know.  It's a lot of people.  It's a big tannery.

      24   Q.  There was a furniture company making furniture, wasn't

      25   there?

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       1   A.  Correct.

       2   Q.  How many people worked at the furniture company?

       3   A.  A lot.

       4   Q.  At the construction company, al Hijra?  That was over 600

       5   people who worked there, right?

       6   A.  Or could be more.

       7   Q.  Could be more.  And they built a number of roads.

       8   A.  Roads and bridge and yes.

       9   Q.  You mentioned a few of them.

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  They also built a road from Khartoum to Port Sudan, is

      12   that right?

      13   A.  Correct.

      14   Q.  That was one of the major projects that was here.

      15   A.  Yes.  It's a major history in Sudan.

      16   Q.  You became aware that there were sanctions against the

      17   Sudan, international sanctions.

      18   A.  Yes, I hear that.

      19   Q.  You know that made trade more difficult from the Sudan to

      20   countries in Europe and North America, is that right?

      21   A.  Correct.

      22   Q.  Therefore it reduced the value of the Sudanese pound.

      23   A.  Correct.

      24   Q.  So it was important for the companies to try to do what

      25   they can to export products that they produced into Europe and

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       1   America, is that right?

       2   A.  Correct.

       3   Q.  To do that, sometimes they had to ship their products

       4   through other countries, is that right?

       5   A.  Yes, correct.

       6   Q.  One of the most popular companies to ship these items was

       7   Cyprus, is that right?

       8   A.  Correct.

       9   Q.  Because that was a free port, is that correct?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  There was no al Qaeda activity in Cyprus, it was just

      12   business activity in Cyprus; isn't that right?

      13   A.  I believe we got guesthouse but we got company, office

      14   running the business.

      15   Q.  That is because if you exported through Cyprus, the value

      16   of the product would increase tremendously.

      17   A.  Yes, make more money.

      18   Q.  You have told us that tractors were purchased in

      19   Czechoslovakia and trucks were purchased in Russia, is that

      20   right?

      21   A.  Correct.

      22   Q.  One of the reasons that they were purchased in the eastern

      23   European countries was that it was much cheaper to purchase

      24   items in the eastern European countries than they would be in

      25   the western European countries or in the United States, is

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       1   that correct?

       2   A.  Yes, cheaper, and they give them more time for paying.

       3   Q.  So for the business enterprises involved in the Bin Laden

       4   companies, there was a lot of travel not only to western

       5   Europe but to eastern Europe and other countries where items

       6   could be purchased cheaper.

       7   A.  Correct.

       8   Q.  You are Sudanese, is that correct?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  You had a Sudanese passport, is that correct?

      11   A.  Correct.

      12   Q.  Traveling through western Europe or to the United States

      13   or even to the Far East was somewhat difficult for you because

      14   you had a Sudanese passport, is that correct?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  People who had either European, western European passports

      17   or American passports were table able to travel much easier,

      18   is that correct?

      19   A.  Yes, much, much easier.

      20   Q.  Therefore it was less expensive for them to travel, is

      21   that right?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  They were able to do business faster because of those

      24   passports, is that correct?

      25   A.  Correct.

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       1   Q.  They were more valuable to the Bin Laden businesses

       2   because they were able to travel easily.

       3   A.  Correct.

       4   Q.  For commercial purposes to either buy goods like the

       5   tractors or to sell goods like sesame and the skins and those

       6   items, is that right?

       7   A.  Correct.

       8   Q.  Sudan is a poor country, isn't it?

       9   A.  Very poor.

      10   Q.  The average income is about $50 a month for the average

      11   Sudanese?

      12   A.  No, I think it's much less.

      13   Q.  And there are a lot of things that aren't produced in

      14   Sudan if you want to run a business that you have to purchase

      15   outside of the Sudan, is that right?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  So either you or Abu Rida or other people -- withdrawn.

      18   Abu Rida had an American passport, didn't he?

      19   A.  I hear that, yes.

      20   Q.  Do you know who Abu Khadija is?

      21   A.  I think he got German citizen.

      22   Q.  People like him would travel to eastern Europe and western

      23   Europe to try to get the best things that were needed that had

      24   to be imported into the Sudan, is that right?

      25   A.  Right.

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       1   Q.  There was cement that was needed?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  There was asphalt that was needed.  There was fertilizer

       4   for the farms that were needed.

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  People also would come up with ideas, maybe we can --

       7   withdrawn.

       8            Taba was a company that sold things inside of the

       9   Sudan, is that right?

      10   A.  Yes, the local stuff.

      11   Q.  And for it to make money, you would have to get it at a

      12   lower price and then sell it at a higher price, is that right?

      13   A.  Correct.

      14   Q.  And then, since the Sudan is a very poor country, you have

      15   to make sure you get a real low price for these items because

      16   otherwise you will not be able to sell them in Sudan, is that

      17   right?

      18   A.  Correct.

      19   Q.  So part of the travel of these people who had either

      20   European or American passports was to see if they could do

      21   trading, buying something in another country that is less

      22   expensive and selling it in the Sudan at a relatively cheap

      23   price to make a profit, is that right?

      24   A.  Correct.

      25   Q.  There came a time that you left working as an assistant

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       1   for Mr. al Tayyib and you became, you started to work for Abu

       2   Rida, R-I-D-A, is that right?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  Since you started working as an assistant sometime in 1992

       5   for Mr. al Tayyib, you worked about a year for Mr. al Tayyib

       6   as his assistant, is that correct?

       7   A.  It could be more.

       8   Q.  When do you think that you went to work for Abu Rida as

       9   his assistant?

      10   A.  I worked with Abu Rida and I come back to al Tayyib.  So I

      11   left Tayyib I go to Rida and go back to al Tayyib.  I go do

      12   other stuff and go back to Tayyib.

      13   Q.  Did you work about seven months for Mr. Abu Rida?

      14   A.  Not in his office for seven months, but any time he want

      15   me to go, I do the job for him and I come back.

      16   Q.  At the time that you went, you were freed up to work for

      17   Mr. Abu Rida when Mr. El Hage came to the Sudan, is that

      18   right?

      19   A.  I don't know what you talk about, Hage.

      20   Q.  Mr. El Hage, Wadih El Hage who is sitting over there.

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  He came near the end of 1992, is that right?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  And you helped train him to do the trading aspects that

      25   you were doing for Mr. al Tayyib, is that right?

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       1   A.  Correct.

       2   Q.  Once he was trained, you were able to do some work for

       3   Mr. Abu Rida, is that right?

       4   A.  Yes, you are right.

       5   Q.  In fact, Mr. El Hage -- withdrawn.

       6            Abu Rida was doing a lot of traveling because he had

       7   an American passport, is that correct?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  After Mr. El Hage was trained about the commodities, he

      10   started doing a lot of traveling instead of Abu Rida, is that

      11   right?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  So therefore Mr. El Hage ended up being out of the

      14   country, out of the Sudan quite a bit doing the traveling that

      15   Abu Rida was doing before.

      16   A.  Correct.

      17   Q.  And you were working mostly for Abu Rida at that time.  If

      18   there was nothing in particular you might go back and help out

      19   Mr. al Tayyib, is that right?

      20   A.  Yes, I go back to Tayyib or I go to other stuff.

      21   Q.  There was also an Abu Dijana who came in.

      22   A.  Yes, Abu Dijana Abdallah al Yemeni.

      23   Q.  And he came in and was trained by you as well, is that

      24   right?

      25   A.  With Sayyid el Masry and Bushra Yasin.  Other people also

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       1   train him.

       2   Q.  So he was not traveling that much, he was mostly in the

       3   office, is that right?

       4   A.  Correct.

       5   Q.  So by early 1993, Mr. El Hage was doing a lot of traveling

       6   out of the country concerning selling things like the corn,

       7   the sesame seeds, hibiscus, right?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  And other items that they were trying to produce in the

      10   Sudan, is that right?

      11   A.  Correct.

      12   Q.  He was also doing a lot of traveling to obtain more

      13   tractors, is that right?

      14   A.  Correct.

      15   Q.  And other items like asphalt or cement or pricing other

      16   items that might be useful to make money in the Sudan, is that

      17   right?

      18   A.  Correct.

      19   Q.  So he wasn't around that much in 1993 because he was doing

      20   most of the traveling for Taba and Laden International, is

      21   that right?

      22   A.  Correct.

      23   Q.  In fact, after you trained Mr. El Hage, you didn't see him

      24   very much in the business.  You were doing different things,

      25   right?

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       1   A.  Yes, you are right.

       2   Q.  I want to mention some other items that Mr. El Hage and

       3   other workers at Laden International or Taba were involved

       4   either trying to obtain or sell.  Bananas?

       5   A.  Yes in Kassala City.

       6   Q.  Butcher equipment?  (Translated)

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  Canned mushrooms and canned tomatoes?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Cement?

      11   A.  Yes, from outside, you are right, we bring it from

      12   outside.

      13   Q.  A deal to try and produce, to make a cheese factory?

      14   A.  I don't remember this.

      15   Q.  There was machines that needed to be purchased to crush

      16   rock?

      17   A.  For the Qudurat Construction?

      18   Q.  Yes.

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  There was discussions about purchasing iron?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Insecticides?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Lathing machines?

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1   Q.  Lemons?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  Olives?

       4   A.  I don't remember olives.

       5   Q.  Raisins, nuts, hazelnuts and almonds?

       6   A.  I don't remember.

       7   Q.  From Tajikistan?  Does that ring a bell?

       8   A.  I really don't remember.

       9   Q.  There was discussion about building a rice mill?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  There was always businesses involving sugar, is that

      12   right?

      13   A.  Correct.

      14   Q.  The sugar was produced both inside Sudan, right?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  There was also discussions of importing sugar as well?

      17   A.  Yes, local and import, yes.

      18   Q.  And there was talk about wood, obtaining wood from Turkey?

      19   A.  Yes, I remember.

      20   Q.  There was an awful lot of business going on in the Bin

      21   Laden businesses, wasn't there?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  After Mr. El Hage and Mr. Dijana came in, working in Taba,

      24   there came a time about a year later in 1994 where you left

      25   your employments with Mr. Bin Laden, is that correct?

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       1   A.  No, I don't leave the group in 1994.

       2   Q.  Didn't you go work for a research institute?

       3   A.  A delegation office.

       4   Q.  Didn't you call that a research institute?

       5   A.  We call it delegation office.

       6   Q.  Wasn't that a Sudanese company that was not affiliated

       7   with Mr. Bin Laden?

       8   A.  This is, it's office helped the people when the other

       9   groups come to Sudan, we interview them and we make sure they

      10   are good people.

      11   Q.  Do you know the name of Amin Hassan Omer, A-M-I-N,

      12   H-A-S-S-A-N, O-M-E-R?  It may be O-M-A-R.  Amin Hassan Omer.

      13   Do you know that name?

      14   A.  No, I don't remember.

      15   Q.  Do you know who was the legal security adviser to

      16   President Basheer in 1994?

      17   A.  Could you repeat the question.

      18            MR. SCHMIDT:  Could you translate that, please.  Do

      19   you know the name of the person who was the legal security

      20   adviser to President Basheer in 1994?

      21   A.  Yes.  His al Tayef.  I don't remember his whole name but I

      22   remember his family name al Tayef.

      23   Q.  Didn't you go work for him in 1994?

      24   A.  No.  Delegation office, they got different manager.  His

      25   name Dr. Motrif Sadeek.

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       1   Q.  We will come back to this.  At some point you started

       2   working at the company called al Sargani.

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  That company was a company where all of the shareholders

       5   were relatives of yours, is that correct?

       6   A.  Sargani belong to Islamic National Front but it's owned by

       7   me, but we use it as umbrella for other work.

       8   Q.  When you use the term Islamic National Front, that was the

       9   political party of Sudan that was in power, is that correct?

      10   A.  Correct.

      11   Q.  The person at that time who was the president of Sudan was

      12   a man named Basheer, is that correct?

      13   A.  Could you repeat your question.

      14   Q.  The president of the country of Sudan back in 1994 was

      15   President Basheer.

      16   A.  Correct.

      17   Q.  The person who headed the party, what you call the Islamic

      18   National Front, was a man named al Turabi.

      19   A.  Correct.

      20   Q.  It was known that Mr. Al Turabi basically was the power

      21   behind the government, is that correct?

      22   A.  Correct.

      23   Q.  You used Islamic National Front.  Is it sometimes the

      24   initials NIF used?

      25   A.  Yes, NIF.

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       1   Q.  So if I use the expression NIF, you will know what I am

       2   talking about?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  Al Sargani was an NIF company, is that correct?

       5   A.  Yes, it's umbrella company.

       6   Q.  You told us that Sheikh Sayyid el Masry came into the

       7   offices at McNimr Street on June 9, 1993, is that correct?

       8   A.  I don't remember the month, but it could be June '93.

       9   Q.  You testified on direct examination not just to the month,

      10   you gave the specific date, June --

      11   A.  I don't remember now.  If I say at that time, yes,

      12   correct.

      13   Q.  Is there a reason why you remember a specific date on

      14   direct examination while Mr. Fitzgerald was examining you and

      15   now you don't even remember a month?

      16   A.  No, it's just human, you know.  Sometimes you ask me a

      17   question, I don't remember it.

      18   Q.  You left the Sudan the last time in February of 1996, is

      19   that correct?

      20   A.  Yes, in February '96.

      21   Q.  You traveled to quite a few places.  Is that right?

      22   A.  Correct.

      23   Q.  You were traveling -- first you went to Syria because that

      24   simply was the easiest place to go, is that right?

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1   Q.  You went to Jordan?

       2   A.  Correct.

       3   Q.  You went to see a man that you said was a member of al

       4   Qaeda, Abu Ahram.

       5   A.  Abu Ahram al Urdani.

       6   Q.  He was a member of al Qaeda?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  You told us that you left the Sudan because you were

       9   worried because you stole money and couldn't pay it back,

      10   right?

      11   A.  Correct.

      12   Q.  You were also concerned with the NIF, isn't that right?

      13   A.  Correct.

      14   Q.  You spent time talking with Abu Ahram, is that right?

      15   A.  Correct.

      16   Q.  You felt comfortable talking to Abu Ahram, right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  He was no threat to you, was he?

      19   A.  No.

      20   Q.  You began your journeys trying to start an opposition

      21   party to the NIF, is that right?

      22   A.  I don't understand the question.

      23   Q.  Would you translate it.  You tried to start an opposition

      24   to the NIF, is that right? (Interpreted)

      25   A.  Not exactly what you say.  I am mad with him, but, you

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       1   know, I don't have money to start making group -- I don't have

       2   enough money, I make.

       3   Q.  You didn't have enough money to start an opposition party?

       4   A.  I don't have thinking about that.  It never come in my

       5   mind like that.  But they make me mad and I left Sudan and I

       6   really hate them.

       7   Q.  You had many, many conversations at the end of 1996 with

       8   agents of the United States government, is that right?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  You spent about 30 days or so from September and October

      11   and November talking to agents of the United States?

      12   A.  Correct.

      13   Q.  In one of the conversations with these agents, didn't you

      14   tell them that you hoped that the US government would help you

      15   establish an intellectual opposition party against the NIF?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  You did not have any money when you started your travels

      18   in February, so you were trying to raise money.

      19   A.  The first thing I did in Syria, I went to United Nations,

      20   and I tell them I have problems my government, and they give

      21   me every two weeks some money from United Nations in Syria.

      22   Q.  The money was just enough to live on and not to start an

      23   opposition party, right?

      24   A.  Yes, just for food and living.

      25   Q.  You were looking to raise money to support yourself and to

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       1   form an opposition party in the Sudan, isn't that right?

       2   A.  Yes, just like anybody, you know, he try to make his

       3   country best.

       4   Q.  You went to Damascus and from there you went to Jordan,

       5   right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  In Jordan you actually tried to go to Israel to see if you

       8   could convince the Israelis to give you money, isn't that

       9   right?

      10   A.  Correct.

      11   Q.  That's how much you hated the NIF, that you would go to

      12   the Israelis.

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  But you didn't go to Israel, you went to Lebanon instead,

      15   is that right?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  And you tried to see if you could sell a book about the

      18   NIF.

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  But you decided not to, because you were afraid the

      21   publisher was a greedy person and you wouldn't get your share,

      22   right?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  You went back to Damascus and put in an application for

      25   refugee status, is that right?

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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  You were told that was the only place you could do it

       3   because it was the first place you went to from Sudan, right?

       4   A.  Correct.

       5   Q.  You weren't very interested in staying in Damascus.

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  You were or were not?

       8   A.  Would you repeat the question.

       9   Q.  Were you interested or not interested in staying in

      10   Damascus?

      11   A.  No, because there are a lot of NIF over there.

      12   Q.  You went to Asmarai in Eritrea.

      13   A.  Correct.

      14   Q.  There there were a number of Sudanese opposition people,

      15   is that right?

      16   A.  Correct.

      17   Q.  And you talked with them over there, is that right?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  You discussed with them what the best way would be for you

      20   to be used to help the opposition.

      21   A.  They ask me, yes.

      22   Q.  But nobody wanted to give you money to fund your own

      23   opposition, did they?

      24   A.  No, they say if you want to share, come work with us, you

      25   don't have money.

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       1   Q.  You didn't want to do that?

       2   A.  No, I am very interested to work with them, but.

       3   Q.  You went to the Eritrean government to try to convince

       4   them to support you, is that right?

       5   A.  No, just like any Sudanese, when he go over there, he

       6   should go to the office, support the all Sudanese opposition

       7   activity.  So I am just like other people.

       8   Q.  You didn't just go over to the government of Eritrea to

       9   support the opposition, you went and made videotapes and

      10   cassette tapes?

      11   A.  No, just for the government, for organization human

      12   rights.

      13   Q.  But you didn't stay there, you got a trip to Saudi Arabia,

      14   is that right?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  You talked to the Saudi Arabians, is that right?

      17   A.  Which Saudi Arabia?

      18   Q.  You talked with Saudi Arabians?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Saudis, right?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  In Saudi Arabia, you talked more now about Mr. Bin Laden

      23   because you knew that the Saudis were trying to stop Mr. Bin

      24   Laden, is that right?

      25   A.  They was asking me so many questions and I am very happy

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       1   at that time to answer the questions, and one of the questions

       2   about Bin Laden.

       3   Q.  Not only was one of the questions Bin Laden, you gave the

       4   Saudis a proposal to assassinate Mr. Bin Laden, didn't you?

       5   A.  Well, any questions they ask me, I give them answer.

       6   Q.  So when they asked you how the best way to murder or

       7   assassinate Mr. Bin Laden, you came up with a plan and gave it

       8   to the Saudi government, is that right?

       9   A.  I don't have plan but when they ask me that question, I

      10   give them what I know.

      11   Q.  It wasn't what you know, it was what you would do.

      12   A.  What I know, because I was in group before.

      13   Q.  Didn't you tell the Americans when you ultimately went to

      14   the Americans a little bit about your conversation with the

      15   Saudis?

      16   A.  Of course, yes.

      17   Q.  When you told them, didn't you tell the Americans that you

      18   proposed a plan that Bin Laden should be liquidated by the Abu

      19   Nisab group, belonging to your relative Mohammed Suda al

      20   Nalfi?

      21   A.  Yes, I remember that.

      22   Q.  You had a plan, isn't that right?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  But you ended up leaving the Saudis because they didn't

      25   offer you any money.

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       1   A.  No, they tell me go to Azmarai and wait over there and

       2   somebody going to start working for you over there, and they

       3   say could be take two weeks or three weeks.  And they tell me

       4   go to the embassy, and they give me name, but I decide to go

       5   to the American Embassy.

       6   Q.  Didn't you complain that they offered you no reward for

       7   all this information?

       8   A.  No, they say when that guy, he want to come in Azmarai, he

       9   going to start with you and he want to help you.

      10   Q.  Didn't you say that you were worried about the opposition

      11   party, the particular opposition party that brought you to

      12   Saudi Arabia was going to try to take the reward for the

      13   Saudis and keep it for themselves and you not get anything;

      14   isn't that right?

      15   A.  At that time I work for the Sudanese group as a member.

      16   Q.  And you thought they were going to take the reward from

      17   the Saudis that you earned, isn't that right?

      18   A.  Yes, I think about that.

      19   Q.  So after having no other place who was willing to meet

      20   your demands you finally go as a last resort to the Americans,

      21   is that right?

      22   A.  No, when I come back from Saudi Arabia, they say wait in

      23   Azmarai two weeks or three weeks, but I decide after three

      24   days if I go to Americans maybe it's better, because Saudis

      25   they want me to work outside, they want me to go to Pakistan,

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       1   and I tell them that's really hard.

       2   Q.  You knew you were not going to work with the Saudis, is

       3   that right?

       4   A.  Yes, I tell them I know it's very hard.  When they ask me

       5   it's hard.

       6   Q.  You didn't trust them, did you?

       7   A.  I trust them very much but I don't trust the plan.  I

       8   don't trust what they want me to do.

       9   Q.  Did you tell the American agents that you did not trust

      10   the Saudis?

      11   A.  I don't trust the plan, not personally.

      12   Q.  Didn't you say flat out to the Americans, I do not trust

      13   the Saudis?

      14   A.  What I mean, the plan, not the people.

      15   Q.  So you did tell the Americans that you did not trust the

      16   Saudis but you are explaining now that that didn't mean I did

      17   not trust the Saudis, I didn't trust their plan.  Is that what

      18   you say?

      19   A.  There is millions of people.  That not means I don't trust

      20   the people.  I don't trust the people I saw when I went to my

      21   trip.

      22   Q.  The people that you saw were high members of the

      23   government of Saudi Arabia, is that right?

      24   A.  Yes.  I don't trust the plan.

      25   Q.  You don't trust the government of Saudi Arabia, not the

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       1   people --

       2   A.  No, that's not correct, because the government thousands

       3   of people.  It's hard to say that.

       4   Q.  Did you say to the Americans I don't trust the Saudis,

       5   meaning the Saudi government officials that you were dealing

       6   with?

       7   A.  No, the people I saw.  I saw only few peoples from the

       8   government.

       9   Q.  Wasn't one a minister?

      10   A.  What?

      11   Q.  Wasn't one a minister of the government?

      12   A.  It's few people from intelligence office.

      13   Q.  You didn't trust the Egyptians, did you?

      14   A.  No.

      15   Q.  Not at all.

      16   A.  No, I never work with them.

      17   Q.  If anything, anybody who was up in Afghanistan during the

      18   Afghani jihad did not want to go trust the Egyptians, right?

      19   A.  You are right.

      20   Q.  So the Egyptians you weren't going to.  The Saudi you

      21   didn't trust, right?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  The Yemenis you didn't trust, right?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  You had been to Eritrea, and you didn't trust them, right?

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       1   A.  I feel, but when I went to Americans --

       2   Q.  The Eritreans are a very poor country?

       3   A.  Very good.

       4   Q.  Nice people but poor country?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  They weren't giving you a lot of money, you didn't want to

       7   live the lifestyle of the Eritreans, did you?

       8   A.  I am not looking for money.

       9   Q.  You didn't want to stay in Syria, right?

      10   A.  Yes, because lot of NIF membership in Syria and Syria got

      11   great relationship.

      12   Q.  You considered going to Israel, didn't you?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Bottom line, there was no other place to go to other than

      15   the Americans.  The last place that you were going to try to

      16   get what you wanted was from the Americans, right?

      17   A.  Yes, I decide to go to America.

      18   Q.  When you decided to go to America, you came to them as a

      19   Sudanese dissident, somebody who was opposing the present

      20   government in the Sudan, right?

      21   A.  I don't understand that.

      22   Q.  When you went to see the Americans at the embassy, you

      23   went there as a person who opposed the NIF in the Sudan,

      24   right?  (Interpreted)

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1   Q.  You knew that the Americans had no diplomatic

       2   relationships with the Sudan at that time, right?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  The Sudanese didn't like the Americans for what they were

       5   doing to the Sudanese, right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  And the Americans didn't like the Sudanese, what they

       8   thought the Sudanese were doing to the rest of the world.

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  When you started talking to the Americans, the Americans

      11   weren't particularly interested in all of the political goings

      12   on in Sudan, were they?

      13   A.  They ask me questions and I give them the answer and I

      14   wait until they --

      15   Q.  What they were interested in was Mr. Bin Laden, wasn't it?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  You realized that very quickly into your conversation with

      18   these Americans, didn't you?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  And you knew that if you were going to get what you wanted

      21   or needed from the Americans, you needed to answer their

      22   questions about Bin Laden, right?

      23   A.  Could you repeat your question.

      24            MR. SCHMIDT:  Please translate this.

      25   Q.  You knew very quickly that if you were going to get what

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       1   you wanted from the Americans, you were going to have to

       2   answer their questions about Bin Laden.

       3            (Interpreted)

       4   A.  Yes.  What I know, I work with Bin Laden nine years.  It's

       5   history.

       6   Q.  You told them some things that simply were lies, is that

       7   right?

       8   A.  No.

       9   Q.  No?  Did you tell them --

      10   A.  I work with Bin Laden nine years.

      11   Q.  Did you tell the Americans in the first or second year

      12   that you trained with Ramzi Yusef?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Ramzi Yusef at that time was in the United States and was

      15   going to trial for some kind of terrorist activity, right?

      16   A.  No, not because that, because we in Afghanistan, I saw him

      17   in the camp, we train, and that's right.

      18   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, you volunteered to the Americans, saying that

      19   you trained with Ramzi Yusef.

      20   A.  No, not because he's news but because I know the guy from

      21   Afghanistan.

      22   Q.  And you knew that the Americans were interested in Ramzi

      23   Yusef, didn't you?

      24   A.  No.

      25   Q.  Did you know they were?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   A.  No, not because interested, it's what I know.  It's nine

       2   years with those people.

       3   Q.  Isn't it a fact that you never ever met the man?

       4   A.  Yes, we are in -- I don't remember the camp now but I

       5   remember in Afghanistan, near the border between Pakistan and

       6   Afghanistan, we got camp over there, and at that time run by

       7   Ibrahim al Rari, and I saw the guy over there and he got

       8   trained over there.

       9   Q.  Didn't you tell the United States agents on October 22,

      10   1996, that you never actually seen Ramzi Ahmed Yusef?

      11   A.  What I tell them, I see the guy in south camp in the

      12   border between Afghanistan and Pakistan and the camp is named

      13   Sada camp.

      14   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, on October 22, 1996, did you tell the

      15   American agents that you never actually seen Ramzi Ahmed

      16   Yusef?

      17   A.  No, I don't remember I tell them that.  Maybe somebody

      18   type it wrong or somebody, he not understand what I am talking

      19   about, but I saw the guy in Sada camp in the border of the

      20   camp between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

      21   Q.  I am going to show you page 150 of what is marked 3501-45.

      22   Do you read English?

      23   A.  A little bit.

      24   Q.  I want you to read the second and third sentence in this,

      25   and you tell me if this refreshes your recollection.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin1
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   A.  OK.

       2            THE COURT:  Understand, the question isn't what it

       3   says on that document.  The question is whether seeing that it

       4   refreshes your recollection as to what you said.  Do you

       5   understand that difference?

       6            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

       7            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I approach the witness?

       8            THE COURT:  Yes.

       9            (Document translated)

      10   A.  The group --

      11            THE COURT:  No.  You are asked a question that calls

      12   for a yes or no answer.  The question is whether reading that

      13   refreshes your recollection as to what you had told the

      14   Americans.

      15   A.  Yes, yes.

      16   Q.  In fact, didn't you tell the Americans after 20 or so

      17   meetings that in fact you never saw Ramzi Yusef?

      18   A.  What here --

      19   Q.  Yes, no, Mr. Fadl.

      20   A.  No.

      21            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I have that paper back.

      22   Q.  Did you call Mr. Ramzi Yusef the mastermind of the World

      23   Trade Center bombing?

      24   A.  No, they have nickname for him but I don't remember his

      25   name now.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin1
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  Did you call him the mastermind of the World Trade Center

       2   bombing?

       3   A.  No, I don't call him that.

       4   Q.  In fact, isn't that what you said to the Americans, that

       5   you knew the mastermind, you trained with the mastermind of

       6   the World Trade Center bombing, Ramzi Yusef, on your first or

       7   second interview with the American agents?  Isn't that

       8   correct?

       9   A.  Yes, I told them I saw the guy in Sada camp, the border of

      10   Pakistan and Afghanistan.

      11   Q.  Didn't you tell them, the Americans, in the first

      12   interview, that you were the chief of security for Usama Bin

      13   Laden for a year?

      14   A.  Bodyguard?

      15   Q.  Chief of security.

      16   A.  Me or who?

      17   Q.  Did you tell the Americans the first time you came in to

      18   sell yourself to the Americans --

      19            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      20            THE COURT:  Yes, sustained as to form.  Restart your

      21   question.

      22   Q.  The first time that you came to see the Americans, didn't

      23   you tell them that you were the chief of security for Mr. Bin

      24   Laden for a year?

      25   A.  Yes, I bodyguard for him and I traveled with him inside

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin1
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Khartoum, Damazine, Kassala, Damazine.  Yes, I bodyguard for

       2   him.

       3            MR. SCHMIDT:  I ask the interpreter to interpret my

       4   next question.

       5   Q.  Didn't you tell the Americans that you were chief of

       6   security for Bin Laden for one year?  (Interpreted)

       7   A.  It's not year but I remember I run the people that do

       8   security.

       9   Q.  My question, Mr. Al-Fadl, is simple, and please translate

      10   it.

      11            Did you tell the American agents that you were the

      12   chief of security for Bin Laden for one year?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  That was a lie, wasn't it?

      15   A.  No.

      16   Q.  You haven't described your role during my --

      17            THE COURT:  Are you going to ask a question now?

      18            MR. SCHMIDT:  I will withdraw and rephrase that.

      19   Q.  When in your description of the jobs that you did for Bin

      20   Laden that you just testified to that you were the chief of

      21   security?

      22   A.  Any time he call me and he say we want to go to Damazine

      23   camp and I need to be with me for security I go for few days

      24   and we come back.  Sometimes I go Saba, Kassala, sometimes the

      25   Soba farm number one, and that is security work.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  And this is your definition of chief of security, is that

       2   what you're saying?

       3   A.  Yes, when I go with him he drive me and I know him in the

       4   end of '88 and that's part of the security.

       5   Q.  Tell us what other role as chief of security -- withdrawn.

       6            What other activities did you do as chief of security

       7   for Mr. Bin Laden during that time?

       8   A.  When we working interrogation office we check everybody

       9   come to the al Qaeda group, the new people and that security,

      10   too.

      11   Q.  Okay.  That's part of your role as chief of security?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Anything else entailed --

      14   A.  They will come to --

      15            THE COURT:  Wait a minute.

      16   Q.  Let me finish my question.

      17            THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  Slow down.  Ask the

      18   question, permit the witness to answer the question before you

      19   ask another question, and let's start over again.

      20            MR. SCHMIDT:  He interrupted my question.

      21            THE COURT:  You were both talking at the same time.

      22   Q.  Is there any -- what other responsibilities did you have

      23   as the chief of security for Mr. Bin Laden during that time?

      24   A.  We have a lot of places and Damazine farm in Khartoum.  We

      25   ship, if we have meetings we checked everybody, we try make

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   everything secure in the guest house or farm.

       2   Q.  How many times did you go to say Damazine farm?

       3   A.  Different times.

       4   Q.  How many times?

       5   A.  I don't remember how many times but different times.

       6   Q.  One time, two times, ten times, twenty times?

       7   A.  More than two or three or four.

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Time frame, Judge?

       9            THE COURT:  Time frame.

      10   Q.  While you lived in the Sudan how many times did you go to

      11   Damazine?

      12   A.  In '92, '93, '94.

      13   Q.  Sir, how many times did you go to Damazine?

      14   A.  I don't remember how many time exactly.  It could be more

      15   than five, six, seven.

      16   Q.  Haven't you previously -- haven't you told the Americans

      17   that you went to the Damazine farm on two occasions and two

      18   occasions only?

      19   A.  No, more than that.

      20   Q.  What else did you do as chief of security?

      21   A.  Our companies also if anybody come to the company he

      22   should sign his name, he should sign his name, put his name

      23   and we see his ID card.  We want to see who, also, we do that

      24   in all the companies.

      25   Q.  Anything else?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  We make report about a lot of other groups in Sudan, and

       2   some groups the workers name is Bin Laden group and again.

       3   Q.  Anything else?

       4   A.  And we work try to make sure he good.

       5   Q.  Is there any reason, Mr. Al Fadl, that when I was asking

       6   you earlier today about the different roles and jobs that you

       7   had for Mr. Bin Laden that you left out your job as chief of

       8   security?

       9            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form, your Honor.

      10            THE COURT:  No, I'll allow it.

      11   A.  Could you repeat your question?

      12   Q.  You translate this, please.

      13            Is there any reason when I asked you all your jobs

      14   and your roles that you did for Mr. Bin Laden from 1989 to

      15   1994, you left out that you were the chief of security?

      16   (Through the interpreter)

      17   A.  I really misunderstand your question.

      18   Q.  Excuse me?

      19   A.  I'm not understanding your question.

      20            MR. SCHMIDT:  Please translate.

      21   Q.  (Through the interpreter).  Earlier today I'd asked you a

      22   number of questions concerning what kind of work you did for

      23   Mr. Bin Laden, remember that?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  And I asked you what else did you do?  What else did you

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   do?  What else did you do?  Remember that?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  And then I asked you was there anything else that you did

       4   and you said, no?

       5   A.  I don't remember.  What I remember I tell you already.

       6   Q.  Why did you not tell us about such important job as chief

       7   of security for Bin Laden?  Why did you not tell us about

       8   that?

       9   A.  I don't remember and I tell you now there is nothing for

      10   my to hide.  We work in the business, we work in security, we

      11   work in training, in the camps.  We do different jobs.

      12   Q.  So when I questioned you earlier you forgot about being

      13   the chief of security for Bin Laden, is that right?

      14   A.  Yes.  All you question about the business.  You focus on

      15   business areas.  That's why I just give you answer for

      16   business.

      17   Q.  Now, you also told the government, the first time that you

      18   saw him, that you knew Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan from

      19   1986 to 1989.  Remember telling them that?

      20   A.  No, '87 when I work in Brooklyn Mustafa Shalabi and the

      21   newspaper come, and that time we know who is Bin Laden, but

      22   the first time in during '88.

      23   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, didn't you tell the Americans the first time

      24   you met them, that, oh, I know Bin Laden Afghanistan from 1986

      25   to 1989?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  No.

       2   Q.  Didn't you tell them that?

       3   A.  No, because I came to United States in '86 and I left

       4   United States end of '87.

       5   Q.  I'm going to ask you to take a look at a document marked

       6   3501-45, page 1 at the bottom the last paragraph.

       7            May I approach the witness, your Honor?

       8            THE COURT:  Certainly.  Mr. Schmidt, let me know when

       9   you're on a new topic.

      10            (Document handed to witness)

      11            (Pause)

      12            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      13   A.  When I tell them that I talk about the time include when I

      14   was in Farouk Mosque in Brooklyn.

      15   Q.  Did you say to the Americans that you knew Bin Laden

      16   Afghanistan during '86 to '89 time frame?  Didn't you say

      17   that?

      18   A.  No, I don't remember.

      19   Q.  You told us about a little bit about your American wife.

      20   Remember testifying here last week?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  And you told us that when you believed it was the right

      23   time to go to Afghanistan at the end of 1988 you told her

      24   you're leaving, right?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  And you said, I don't know if I'm coming back and you

       2   left, right?

       3   A.  Yes.  I tell her I want to go to Afghanistan and maybe I'm

       4   never going to come back.

       5   Q.  Now, you didn't divorce her, is that correct?

       6   A.  No.

       7   Q.  No one forced you to go to Afghanistan, did they?

       8   A.  What?

       9   Q.  No one forced you to go to Afghanistan, did they?

      10   A.  At that time I work in Farouk Mosque and they tell me go

      11   to Afghanistan, I go.

      12   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, you went to Afghanistan because you thought

      13   it was the right thing to do, isn't that right?

      14   A.  I work at that time with Mustafa Shalabi in Farouk Mosque

      15   in Brooklyn, we bring donation to the office and they send the

      16   donation from Brooklyn to Afghanistan.

      17   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, do you think that the fight against the

      18   Russian communists by the Afghan mujahideen and the other

      19   Muslim volunteers was a good thing?

      20   A.  I don't believe that.  If he would tell me Farouk Mosque

      21   about what's going on there, and that's why I go.

      22   Q.  So when you went over.

      23   A.  When you go somewhere, you need somebody to tell you about

      24   that.

      25   Q.  So when you went to the -- so when you were raising money

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   for the Afghan resistance against the Russian communists you

       2   didn't know anything about it?

       3   A.  The people tell me how it started, I started that I will

       4   come when I work, and they tell me, look, you Muslim come to

       5   the mosque, bring donation, inform other people and I work

       6   with them in Brooklyn and after that they tell me better for

       7   you to go over there and I make my decision and I went over

       8   there.

       9   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, did you know about the Russians invading

      10   Afghanistan --

      11   A.  Came from the news, but news is not enough.

      12   Q.  Please let me finish my question, Mr. Al Fadl?

      13   A.  Okay.

      14   Q.  Did you know about the Russians invading Afghanistan when

      15   you were living in the Sudan?

      16   A.  No.

      17   Q.  You had no idea?

      18   A.  Only here when I come to the United States.

      19   Q.  You never heard about the Russian invasion of Afghanistan

      20   until you came  --

      21   A.  Just from the news.

      22   Q.  Do you know about it from the news while you were in the

      23   Sudan?

      24   A.  I, yes.

      25   Q.  But it wasn't any of your concern?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  No.

       2   Q.  And you came to the United States?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And you ended up in Brooklyn, right?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  You ended up going to a mosque in Brooklyn where they

       7   talked about what was going on in Afghanistan?

       8   A.  No, actually I work in grocery and somebody, two guys,

       9   three came and start talking, tell me come to the mosque,

      10   their lecture something about Afghanistan, if you want to know

      11   that's good for you.

      12   Q.  So when you went around getting donations did you think it

      13   was a good thing?

      14   A.  Yeah, after they tell me and give me details, yes, I think

      15   that's a good idea.

      16   Q.  Did you think it was a good thing?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  About all the people trying to force the Russian

      19   communists out of Afghanistan?

      20   A.  Yes, that's right.

      21   Q.  Did you support them?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  You supported them by working and getting money, is that

      24   right?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  And you knew that Muslims from around the world were going

       2   to Afghanistan to actually help fight or help relief work in

       3   Afghanistan?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Now, before you were asked to go, did you have any

       6   thoughts about that might be a good thing for you to do?

       7   A.  Well, when I hear the first one they tell me about the

       8   fatwa I say, well, that's a good idea, because Bin Laden Abdul

       9   Azzam, they make lecture in jihad magazine, and we read the

      10   magazine in Brooklyn, and we see, well, this is fatwa.

      11   Q.  So you were following what was going on in Afghanistan at

      12   the mosque, at the Afghani Center or was that --

      13   A.  Farouk Mosque.

      14   Q.  Mektab?

      15   A.  Yes, Farouk Mosque is --

      16   Q.  Al kafar ring a bell?

      17   A.  Mosque Al kafar.

      18   Q.  And you're reading the jihad magazine?

      19   A.  Yes.  Mustafa Shalabi every magazine he give it to us and

      20   we read it.

      21   Q.  You knew that the Afghanis themselves were seeking help

      22   from Muslims to fight the Russians to throw them out of their

      23   country, right?

      24   A.  Correct, yes.

      25   Q.  The Afghanis invited, they wanted people to come and help

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   them, right?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  And you read about what Bin Laden was doing, right?

       4   A.  Bin Laden and Azzam.

       5   Q.  And what Mr. Azzam was doing, right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  You thought that it would be a good thing for you as a

       8   person reestablishing your Muslim identity to go and help the

       9   Afghanis, is that right?

      10   A.  Yes, they say you have to.

      11   Q.  Well, did you take the request to go to Afghanistan as an

      12   order?

      13   A.  Yes, because fatwa Islam mean like you have to, better

      14   than do business or support your wife or kids, that I call it

      15   for the fatwa.

      16   Q.  Fatwa means that you have to think about what people say

      17   to see if you believe it's correct?

      18   A.  No, fatwa is different.  Fatwa means when the people tell

      19   you the jihad in Afghanistan fardh al khafiya means you have

      20   to go by yourself to leave everything and go.

      21   Q.  Isn't that the very big difference between Sunni and the

      22   Shia?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Right.  In the Shiites if the leader, if the imam, the

      25   leader, says something is true you follow it, right?

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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  But in the Sunni there is no leader like that, right?

       3   A.  Because we don't have.

       4   Q.  Right.  You have scholars who give their argument to you

       5   why this is correct?

       6   A.  Correct.

       7   Q.  Is that right?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  And what a fatwa is simply is if it's a proper fatwa is

      10   issued by a scholar who says, this is what you should be done

      11   and because of the reasons?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  And they explain it in order to convince each individual

      14   Muslim of, that they're correct in doing this fatwa?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  In fact, all through the Muslim Sunni world it's different

      17   scholars say different things, right?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And it's your responsibility, your ultimate responsibility

      20   as a good Muslim to make that determination on your own that

      21   this is a proper fatwa?

      22   A.  No, no.  Because if you think about the religion by itself

      23   is not right, because the scholar he bring the fatwa from the

      24   Holy Koran from what prophet Mohammed say from what the

      25   scholar in history say, so when he tell you about the fatwa

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   not about what he think about the Holy Koran.

       2   Q.  But aren't there times when there are different fatwas

       3   that are issued that are complete opposite things, right?

       4   A.  Yeah, but that time --

       5   Q.  Mr.

       6   A.  The scholar --

       7            THE COURT:  The question is, right?  Now he's

       8   answering your question.

       9   Q.  Now --

      10            THE COURT:  He's answers.

      11            MR. SCHMIDT:  He's going beyond, your Honor.

      12            THE COURT:  Mr. Reporter, read the question.

      13            (Record read)

      14   A.  At that time the most of the scholars in Arab countries

      15   and even the United States they say jihad in Afghanistan, and

      16   that means you have fardh al khafiya, but you can't even think

      17   about because you have to do just like prayer.

      18   Q.  A good example.  In Afghanistan all of the scholars agreed

      19   that it was an obligation of good Muslims around the world to

      20   help their Afghani brothers throw out the Russians, right?

      21   A.  It's not so you have to.  That's --

      22   Q.  Your obligation to help them throw out the Russians?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Because the Afghanis requested help, it was a enemy that

      25   was anti-Muslim that invaded their own country, so everybody

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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   agreed, right?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  Now, there are times when they don't always agree, these

       4   scholars, right?

       5   A.  Well, all the scholars they agree because it's in the

       6   paper.

       7   Q.  Now, let's use the interpreter.

       8            (Through the interpreter).  There are times when

       9   these scholars don't always agree about things other than

      10   Afghanistan, isn't that correct?

      11            THE INTERPRETER:  That means all the scholars agree

      12   and there are times --

      13   Q.  A good example of when scholars do not agree was about the

      14   American presence in Saudi Arabia, isn't that right?

      15   A.  I don't understand.

      16            MR. SCHMIDT:  Would you please translate that.

      17            (Through the interpreter)

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And when the scholars do not agree it's the individual

      20   Muslim who has the religious obligation to think and make

      21   their own decision as to what they believe is proper, isn't

      22   that correct?

      23   A.  No, is not correct.

      24   Q.  Are you saying that if someone issues, if some supposed

      25   scholar issues a fatwa that you personally believe is against

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       1   Islam that --

       2   A.  Because --

       3   Q.  -- should still follow it?

       4   A.  If the fatwa about something like jihad is different than

       5   fatwa about prayer, because is all scholar they make same

       6   fatwa for jihad we follow them, but if some scholar they say

       7   is not jihad, some scholars they say is jihad, we leave it.

       8   I'm not going to follow this or this until they came together

       9   and this is example for fardh al khafiya you all came together

      10   they agreed, but now a lot of groups in Arab countries they

      11   say when jihad in that country some scholars they say no, so

      12   the people they say no, we don't do jihad.

      13   Q.  And a good Muslim then would say, I'm not going to follow?

      14   A.  Until the scholars come together.

      15   Q.  Now, let's go back to where it started.  You left your

      16   wife and you went to Afghanistan, is that right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  Now, the government said to you on direct examination,

      19   asked you in Islam are you allowed more than one wife?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  You said yes?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Did you explain that to the government when you were

      24   talking with them years ago about how you are allowed to have

      25   more than one wife in Islam?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  I don't remember the conversation exactly, but Islam is

       2   you have more than one four wives that's allowed to go.

       3   Q.  And the government accepted the fact that it was perfectly

       4   permissible in Islam for you to have more than one wife,

       5   right?

       6   A.  In Islam, yes, if you have --

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

       8   A.  If you have more than one wife okay.

       9            THE COURT:  Objection is sustained.  The question and

      10   answer stricken.  You want to pursue it, ask another question.

      11   Q.  Did any representative of the government say to you at any

      12   time that, no, what you did was wrong about marrying the

      13   American woman?

      14   A.  I really don't remember.

      15            THE COURT:  Wrong about marrying the American woman?

      16            MR. SCHMIDT:  Right.

      17   A.  I don't remember.

      18   Q.  You don't remember them saying anything like that?

      19   A.  It could be, but I didn't remember now.  If I remember I

      20   say, you know, I'm glad to tell you.

      21   Q.  You were married already in the Sudan before you came to

      22   the United States, is that correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Now, in fact, it's not simply, it's not permissible simply

      25   to get up and marry a second or a third or fourth wife just

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   because you decide, isn't that correct?

       2   A.  Because in Islam, yes, if you marry one or more than one,

       3   that's okay.

       4   Q.  Isn't -- doesn't Islam require that you obtain the

       5   permission of your first wife to marry a second wife?

       6   A.  If you tell her, that's great, if you don't tell her.

       7   Q.  Isn't it required in Islam that before you take a second

       8   wife that you obtain the permission of the first wife?

       9   A.  Some scholar they say you have to.  Some scholars they say

      10   no.  If you married then after that you tell her, that's also

      11   okay.

      12   Q.  And how many years do you have to tell your second wife

      13   that, your first wife that you've taken a second wife?

      14   A.  Well, the worst thing if you tell her right away is good

      15   for you and her.

      16   Q.  This is one of the things where scholars disagree and you

      17   decided to follow the scholars that say you can go to another

      18   country and marry a woman and not tell anybody?

      19   A.  No, not because I follow other scholar but I make mistake

      20   like everybody you know, I didn't tell my wife, the first

      21   wife.

      22   Q.  Well, isn't it a fact that another one of the rules about

      23   taking more than one wife is not to cause any distress to the

      24   first wife, the main wife, the first wife, isn't that true?

      25   A.  Well, look, I love her so much I say the first one, but

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   when I come here I feel like if I marry it's better for me.

       2   Q.  In other words, when you want to do something that you

       3   want to do, you don't care what Islam says, isn't that right?

       4   A.  I didn't say I don't care, but I say I make mistake I

       5   should tell my first wife I'm in United States, I want to

       6   protect myself to marry the woman, I should tell her that, but

       7   I make mistake and I didn't tell her.

       8   Q.  How did you treat your second wife?

       9   A.  Very good.

      10   Q.  Very good?  And was it very good when you said, bye honey,

      11   I'm going to Afghanistan?

      12   A.  No.  No, I didn't told her, bye, honey.  I tell her I want

      13   to go to Afghanistan.  I don't know if I go to die over there

      14   because the Afghan, but I didn't her like I go to grocery

      15   store, I go to --

      16   Q.  Were you sending money back to your first wife when you

      17   were in the United States?

      18   A.  Could you repeat the question?

      19   Q.  Were you sending money back to your first wife when you

      20   were in the United States?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Without your second wife knowing about it?

      23   A.  The first, the wife here?

      24   Q.  The first wife is in the Sudan, right?

      25   A.  Yes, the first wife in Sudan.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  Then you came to the United States, right?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  You started working, you got married, you're a lonely man

       4   in the United States, you got married, right, and intimate

       5   marital relations with her.  Did you send money to support

       6   your first wife in the Sudan?

       7   A.  Yes, yes.

       8   Q.  And your second wife didn't know about it.  You did it

       9   behind her back?

      10   A.  No, I didn't tell her.

      11   Q.  And how much money have you given your second wife since

      12   you come back to the United States?

      13   A.  The wife I live here in the United States?

      14   Q.  Yes?

      15   A.  I pay for the rents every week $50.

      16   Q.  To which wife?

      17   A.  The wife here.

      18   Q.  Do you have a child with her?

      19   A.  No.

      20   Q.  So you've been since you're back in the United States

      21   you're giving your first wife $50?

      22   A.  No, no, no, I talk about the wife here in the United

      23   States, we share the apartment, and I pay the rent every week,

      24   $50.  I buy some food and other stuff.

      25            THE COURT:  What time interval are we talking about?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  That's when you were in the United States living with her?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  Now, you told the Americans the first day that you started

       4   talking to them that you were forced by your superiors to

       5   divorce your American wife?

       6   A.  I not understand what you said.

       7            MR. SCHMIDT:  Can you translate, please.

       8            (Through the interpreter)

       9   A.  The people I work with in Brooklyn they tell me you have

      10   to go to Afghanistan and you have fatwa.

      11   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, did you tell the Americans that you were

      12   forced by your superiors to divorce your first wife after one

      13   year?

      14   A.  When I talk about the fatwa.

      15   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl --

      16            Can we have the question translated please?

      17            I'll rephrase the question.

      18            Mr. Al Fadl, did you tell the Americans that you were

      19   forced by your superiors to divorce your American wife after

      20   one year?

      21   A.  Yes.  But I talk about the fatwa, 'cause I have to go to

      22   Afghanistan.

      23   Q.  Did you tell the Americans that you traveled to the United

      24   States in 1985 or 1986 for Islamic military training on the

      25   second interview with the Americans?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  No, no.  When I came to United States here?  No.

       2   Q.  I'm going to ask you --

       3   A.  I don't remember that at all.

       4   Q.  I'm going to ask you to take a look and this is marked

       5   3501-35, page 4, I'm marking now where I want you to take a

       6   look.

       7            Please have the interpreter translate it for you.

       8   May I approach the witness, your Honor?

       9            THE COURT:  Yes.

      10            (Document handed to witness)

      11            (Through the interpreter)

      12            THE INTERPRETER:  Which paragraph?

      13   A.  No, I never remember, I never tell them that.

      14   Q.  Thank you.

      15            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, this may be a good point to

      16   break.

      17            THE COURT:  We'll take our mid-morning recess at this

      18   point.

      19            (Recess)

      20            (In open court; jury not present)

      21            THE COURT:  Please be seated.  The Marshal tells me

      22   one of the jurors just learned that his mother passed away and

      23   he's on the phone.

      24            (Pause)

      25            (In open court; jury present)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1            THE COURT:  The witness may resume the stand.

       2            (Witness resumed)

       3            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt, you may continue.

       4   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, how much was it for an application to the

       5   University of Georgia?

       6   A.  I don't remember.

       7   Q.  How many pages was the application that you had to fill

       8   out to go to the University of Georgia?

       9   A.  I remember my brother Ibrahim he bring the application for

      10   me.  I don't remember it's two or three weeks.

      11   Q.  Did you have to provide any other information to the

      12   University of Georgia to get admitted to the University of

      13   Georgia?

      14   A.  I remember at that time my brother Ibrahim and my cousin

      15   they tried to help me, but they said they need the high school

      16   for Sudan and other stuff.

      17   Q.  How much did you pay for the first semester for the

      18   school?

      19   A.  We got the first semester, I don't know it's six hundred

      20   for just English for two months.

      21   Q.  At that time in 1986 your English wasn't as good as it is

      22   now, is that right?

      23   A.  No.

      24   Q.  Now, in fact, you never went to the University of Georgia

      25   is that right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Well, I tried to, but I didn't finish all the paperwork,

       2   but I took the semester for English.

       3   Q.  But when you went to the US embassy to get a visa to go to

       4   the United States you told them that you were going to be a

       5   student at the University of Georgia, didn't you?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  And you had a visa, a student visa based on your sworn

       8   statement to the United States counsulate, isn't that right?

       9   A.  Yes, you call it I20.

      10   Q.  You had to make sworn statements to get that visa, didn't

      11   you?

      12   A.  Well, I did the application and I got the visa.

      13            MR. SCHMIDT:  Could you translate this, please?

      14            (Through the interpreter)

      15   Q.  You had to make sworn statements at the United States

      16   counsulate that you were going to college for you to get the

      17   visa, isn't that correct?

      18            (Through the interpreter)

      19   A.  No, they don't do that with me.  They just give me

      20   application and they give me something they call it I20.  I20

      21   is for people who go for student.

      22   Q.  To had fill out that accurately, is that correct?

      23   A.  Yes.  They ask you what school you went to in Sudan and

      24   who is going to support you and you bring that from your dad

      25   and you bring the ticket.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  And you have to swear an oath that your application is

       2   accurate and are not lies, isn't that right?

       3   A.  No, you bring letter for whatever he going to support the

       4   trip and your child in the United States and I bring that

       5   letter from my dad.

       6   Q.  You came to the United States.  You landed in New York, is

       7   that correct?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  And you went to the mosque in New York and you obtained

      10   employment, is that right?

      11   A.  I remember I went to New York.  After that I went to

      12   Atlanta, Georgia and after that I came back again to New York

      13   and I stay in Brooklyn.

      14   Q.  You never went to school in the United States, is that

      15   correct?

      16   A.  Well, I try, I said that, and after that I change my mind

      17   because it cost a lot of money and I decide not to.

      18            THE COURT:  Mr. Al Fadl, please listen to the

      19   question, and if the question could be answered yes or no

      20   answer it yes or no.  Don't give your reason, but just answer

      21   the question.

      22            THE WITNESS:  Okay.

      23   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, you had a series of conversations from

      24   September 7th into November with agents at the US embassy; is

      25   that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  These were not FBI agents; is that correct?

       3   A.  I don't know what kind of agents but I know they're from

       4   the government.

       5   Q.  But then there came another point in time December of

       6   1996, when you started talking to FBI agents who identified

       7   themselves as FBI agents, is that correct?

       8   A.  Yes, after that we went to Europe and I talk with other

       9   people.

      10   Q.  But that first series of interviews, those were about

      11   thirty or so different days that you were interviewed, right?

      12   A.  Yes, it could be around three weeks.

      13   Q.  Now, the first one was December 6, 1996.  Would that be

      14   about right?

      15   A.  In Nigeria.

      16   Q.  The first interviews the first time that you came into

      17   talk to the Americans?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  In December?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  So it was a lot more than three weeks?

      22   A.  Could be.

      23   Q.  Now, during that time you were asked questions about and

      24   you volunteered information about different people that you

      25   knew from the Sudan, is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  From Afghanistan?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  People involved with Bin Laden?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  Is that correct?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  And people involved with the NIF?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  And other people that you came in contact with during the

      11   years of 1986, when you came to the United States to the year

      12   that you, 1996, when you started talking to the Americans.  Is

      13   that correct?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  And that first thirty or so meetings you gave them

      16   hundreds of names, is that right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  Some of them that you mentioned on your own.  Is that

      19   right?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And some of them that they asked you about?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Right?  Do you know such and such, right?

      24   A.  Correct.

      25   Q.  The other ones were ones, I work with this person and this

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   person, right?

       2            Do you recall the first occasion that you mentioned

       3   in some name or form Wadih El Hage?

       4   A.  At what time?

       5   Q.  Yes.

       6   A.  I don't understand.

       7   Q.  How many days or how many interviews went by before you

       8   mentioned a person that you now claim to be Wadih El Hage in

       9   your interviews, not with the FBI in Europe, but those earlier

      10   interviews?

      11   A.  If I remember right I think in Europe when I was in

      12   Europe.

      13   Q.  The first time that you talked about Wadih El Hage was in

      14   Europe with the FBI, is that your testimony?

      15   A.  I'm not sure, but it could be in Europe when I was in

      16   Europe.

      17   Q.  You told -- before you went to Europe, you told the

      18   government every Abu name that you knew of, isn't that right?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  You did not say Abu Abdallah meaning Mr. El Hage during

      21   those first thirty or thirty-five interviews you had with the

      22   United States government, isn't that correct?

      23   A.  I really don't remember.

      24   Q.  Your present memory is the first time -- withdrawn.

      25            Did you ever use the name El Hage in the thirty or so

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    958
           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   times or two and a half months that you were interviewed by

       2   the people before you went to Europe?

       3   A.  Really don't remember.  What I remember in Europe, we talk

       4   about Wadih El Hage.

       5   Q.  But while you were in, before you went to Europe, during

       6   all those interviews the government agents were asking you

       7   about all the people that were involved in al Qaeda; is that

       8   correct?  Isn't that correct?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  And you named hundreds of people, didn't you?

      11   A.  Correct.

      12   Q.  And you did not mention Wadih El Hage?

      13   A.  I don't remember.

      14   Q.  Isn't that correct?

      15   A.  I don't remember.

      16   Q.  Do you remember saying anything about Wadih El Hage to the

      17   agents before you went to Europe?

      18   A.  I really don't remember.

      19   Q.  The answer is yes, I do not remember ever saying anything

      20   about Wadih El Hage, is that correct?

      21   A.  I do not remember if I say or I don't say.

      22   Q.  What at this particular time is the first thing that you

      23   remember telling any government agent outside of Europe or

      24   Europe about Wadih El Hage?

      25   A.  I remember one time we talk in about him in Europe.  But I

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   didn't remember if I talk about him before Europe or no.

       2   Q.  Isn't it a fact that the first time that the name of Wadih

       3   El Hage came up was when the FBI asked you what you know about

       4   Wadih El Hage on October 23, 1997?

       5   A.  I really don't remember.

       6   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, you have told us that you remembered hundreds

       7   of names Abu names, person's given names and you told them all

       8   to the government, and it is your testimony here today that

       9   you don't remember when the first time you were asked about

      10   Wadih El Hage?  Is that your testimony?

      11   A.  I don't remember when they asked me.  I don't remember

      12   when they asked me.  But I remember they asked me about him

      13   but I didn't remember which year or which month they asked me

      14   about, and if I remember, I'd be glad to tell you.

      15   Q.  Wasn't it the government who first mentioned Wadih El

      16   Hage's name and not you?

      17   A.  I really don't remember if I mention it or the government

      18   mention it and what time, what year, what month, I really

      19   don't remember.

      20   Q.  It was more than one year after you started talking to the

      21   United States that the government asked you about Wadih El

      22   Hage, isn't that correct, Mr. Al Fadl?

      23   A.  I don't remember.

      24   Q.  When was the first time that Mr. El Hage's name Abu

      25   Abdallah came up?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  I really don't remember.

       2   Q.  Was it before or after you discussed with the government

       3   the name Wadih El Hage?

       4   A.  I really don't remember which year or which month they

       5   asked me or I mentioned or they mentioned it to me.

       6   Q.  My question is --

       7            Can you interpret this, please?

       8            Did the name Abu Abdullah al Lubnani, come up before

       9   or after the mentioning of Wadih El Hage?

      10            (Through the interpreter)

      11            THE INTERPRETER:  The name is Abdallah what?  I did

      12   not hear.

      13            MR. SCHMIDT:  Lubnani.

      14            (Through the interpreter)

      15   A.  What I remember saying I think it was yes, El Hage, yes.

      16   Q.  Did you know him?  You claim to know him by any other name

      17   than Abu Abdullah al Lubnani and Wadih El Hage?

      18   A.  I think in Afghanistan.

      19   Q.  Where in Afghanistan was this?

      20   A.  I remember I saw him in Afghanistan in the shower in the

      21   camp, in the first camp.

      22   Q.  In what year was this?

      23   A.  I really don't remember if '91 or '2 or '90, I really

      24   don't remember.

      25   Q.  You say it could have been '91 or '92?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  I really don't remember, but area like '92.

       2   Q.  Which arm of Mr. El Hage is whithered?

       3   A.  Well, at that time I saw different time Mr. Abu.

       4            MR. SCHMIDT:  Could you interpret the question?

       5            Which arm of Mr. El Hage is whithered?

       6            THE INTERPRETER:  Is what?

       7            MR. SCHMIDT:  Whithered.

       8            (Through the interpreter)

       9   A.  I really don't remember.

      10   Q.  Do you know what hand he writes with?

      11   A.  I really don't remember.

      12   Q.  Do you know the name of any of his children other than

      13   Abdallah?

      14   A.  No.

      15   Q.  Do you know what house he lived in when he was in Sudan?

      16   A.  I remember he live in a building near the Al Qaeda

      17   organization, and under his house is if I remember right is

      18   pharmacy.

      19   Q.  Do you know -- withdrawn.  He worked in the office at

      20   McNimr Street?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Did he work anywhere else to your knowledge?

      23   A.  Well, I saw him in McNimr Street and I saw him sometime in

      24   farm with the meeting, sometime in guest houses.

      25   Q.  I asked you did you ever see him work in a different

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   office?

       2   A.  In the guest house the people come to the guest house it's

       3   work, because the people in al Qaeda group if you not in al

       4   Qaeda group you can't go to the guest house, and when you go

       5   over there you go for lecture or fatwa or meeting or talking,

       6   and that's part of our job.

       7   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, do you know what I mean?

       8   A.  That was my answer, so what do you mean?

       9   Q.  Do you know if he worked in any other office?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  What other office?

      12   A.  In the guest houses, in the farm.

      13   Q.  What offices are in the guest houses?

      14   A.  For the meetings, are all the membership they come to the

      15   meetings.

      16   Q.  Offices in the guest house?

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.

      18            THE COURT:  Yes.

      19   A.  In the guest houses.

      20            THE COURT:  The question is asked and answered.  Ask

      21   the next question.

      22   Q.  Is there any other offices for any of Mr. Bin Laden's

      23   businesses other than at McNimr Street?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Where?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  We have construction office, we have office, and we have

       2   office in middle Khartoum.

       3   Q.  Now, do you understand what I mean when I say office, Mr.

       4   Al Fadl?

       5   A.  When you talk about office I --

       6   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl?

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.  May he

       8   answer the question?

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, would you instruct the

      10   witness when I ask him the question that requires a yes or no

      11   answer that's all that he has to do, we won't have this.

      12            THE COURT:  Ask the question that can clearly and

      13   fairly be answered by a yes or no answer, I'll direct the

      14   witness to answer yes or no.

      15   Q.  I ask you do you now know what I mean by office, Mr. Al

      16   Fadl?

      17   A.  Would you repeat the question?

      18   Q.  Do you now know what I mean by office, Mr. Al Fadl?

      19   A.  What you talk about business or the group?

      20   Q.  The business.

      21            THE COURT:  Why don't you define office, and then ask

      22   your question based on your definition.

      23   Q.  The business offices that you just described?

      24   A.  Yes, I saw him sometime in construction, and also with at

      25   Themar al Mubaraka company.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  Did you ever see him work out of the office other than

       2   McNimr office, not visit, but work out of the office?

       3   A.  Well, I know when he was in Ibrahim he worked with him,

       4   and sometimes I know he helped with al Qudurat construction.

       5   Q.  In the other offices that you know that he worked out of

       6   other than the al Qudurat?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  And the office in McNimr any other offices that you --

       9   A.  I saw different times Bareba commission company.

      10   Q.  Where was that located?

      11   A.  That in Burton building in middle Khartoum.

      12   Q.  Any other offices you see him work out of, not visit to

      13   have a meeting, but to work out where he had a desk or an

      14   office?

      15            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      16            THE COURT:  Are you defining office now as a place

      17   where he had a desk?

      18            MR. SCHMIDT:  Work out of, defining where he had a

      19   desk.

      20            THE COURT:  I sustain the objection to form.  The

      21   question is so vague.  Having a conversation making telephone

      22   calls, define business.

      23   Q.  In McNimr Street Mr. El Hage had a desk.  Is that right?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  And a telephone; is that right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  And papers there, is that right?

       3   A.  Correct.

       4   Q.  Did he ever have a desk in any other business office

       5   related to the Usama Bin Laden?

       6   A.  No.

       7   Q.  And its your testimony that you're a close associate of

       8   Mr. Usama Bin Laden, is that right?

       9   A.  Yes, I work with him for nine years.

      10   Q.  Did you ever tell -- did you ever -- you've testified on

      11   direct examination about certain documents.  You testified

      12   about going to get some passports for one of your travels.  Do

      13   you remember that?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  You mentioned a person you dealt with.  Who was that

      16   person?  Did they have an office where they dealt with the

      17   passport issues?

      18   A.  At what time?

      19   Q.  The time that you went to see him?

      20   A.  Where in Sudan or Afghanistan?

      21   Q.  In the Sudan?

      22   A.  Got office in McNimr Street and after that he moved to

      23   Wadi company and after this they moved to the big guest house.

      24   Q.  Now, you remember you testified that you went to get your

      25   passport from them and that you saw somebody there who was

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Abdullah Sabbur?

       2            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.

       3            THE COURT:  Wait just one moment.

       4            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.  Characterization of the

       5   prior testimony.

       6            THE COURT:  Restate your question.

       7            MR. SCHMIDT:  Excuse me, your Honor?

       8            THE COURT:  Restate your question.

       9   Q.  You remember your testimony about your trip to Egypt?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Remember testifying that you went to an office to get the

      12   documents.  You remember that?

      13   A.  But that's in Afghanistan, not in the Sudan.

      14   Q.  In the Sudan?

      15   A.  No.  What I remember I tell them I went that I can

      16   Pakistan, because I went to Egypt from Pakistan.

      17   Q.  What year was that?

      18   A.  I really don't remember.

      19   Q.  It's 1991 or 1992?

      20   A.  No, before '92.

      21   Q.  1991?

      22   A.  I really not sure, if '90 or '91.

      23   Q.  You said that you saw Tamsa Al Nibi?

      24   A.  Hamdala.

      25   Q.  Excuse me?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Hamdala Al Nibi.

       2   Q.  Where were they?

       3   A.  In the shower, and before I had a bath in the shower we

       4   had office over there.

       5   Q.  Now, you said there is a time you met somebody named Abu

       6   Abd al Sabbur?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  But you had no dealings with him there?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Now, it's not your testimony that Abu al Sabbur is Mr. El

      11   Hage, is it?

      12   A.  No, what I tell them I'm not sure if Wadih El Hage or

      13   somebody different.

      14   Q.  So it's your testimony now that you might have seen Mr. El

      15   Hage back in Afghanistan when you were -- Pakistan -- when you

      16   were picking up your documents to travel?

      17   A.  No.  I tell them the guy he have the documents in that

      18   office, I'm not sure if it is Wadih El Hage or somebody else

      19   but I didn't tell them I never see them, I see him in the

      20   guest house in a different time.

      21   Q.  But you said that the person that you saw, but didn't deal

      22   with, was a person named Abdel al Sabbur, right, that's the

      23   words you used?

      24   A.  That's what people called him.  His nickname is Al Sabbur.

      25            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  You know him, Mr. El Hage, you know his name, he's sitting

       2   right over there, is that correct?

       3   A.  Yes, I know his name is Wadi El Hage.

       4   Q.  So if it was Mr. El Hage sitting there, you would have

       5   said it was Mr. Wadih El Hage, is that right?

       6   A.  No, because Abdullah and they help me with that trip so I

       7   didn't deal with him, and sometime you go inside the office

       8   then you see people sitting, but after a few months you don't

       9   remember, you know, who is exactly.  That's why I tell them

      10   I'm not sure is Wadih or somebody else.

      11   Q.  Mr. El Hage obviously did not leave an impression on you

      12   very much when it took you over a year to even talk with him

      13   about the government, is that correct?

      14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

      15            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      16   Q.  Are you known also as Abu Ubaidah?

      17   A.  Know what?

      18   Q.  Are you known also as Abu Ubaidah?

      19   A.  I don't remember, because the people switch the nicknames.

      20   Could be one person he got five nicknames.

      21            THE COURT:  The question is whether the witness was

      22   known by that name?

      23            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes, that's my question.

      24   A.  I don't remember.

      25   Q.  Let me make sure that we have no misunderstanding.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1            Could we translate this, please?

       2            THE INTERPRETER:  Sure.

       3   Q.  Are you -- Mr. Al Fadl, ever been known or called Abu

       4   Ubaidah?

       5   A.  Me?

       6            (Through the interpreter)

       7   A.  No, Abu Kastani and Abu Kazam.

       8   Q.  Do you know any other Sudanese who worked for Mr. Bin

       9   Laden who stole money from him?

      10   A.  Abu Suree.  One guy his name Abu Suree.

      11   Q.  This is a Sudanese?

      12   A.  No, he's Sudian.

      13   Q.  I'm asking you do you know any other Sudanese who stole

      14   money from Mr. Bin Laden?

      15   A.  I don't remember.

      16   Q.  You don't know or you don't remember?

      17   A.  I know, but I don't remember now.

      18   Q.  Now, Mr. Al Fadl, you told us a little bit of a speech I

      19   think that you said Abu Hajer --

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Withdrawn.

      21   Q.  -- gave concerning the declarations of Mohammed Ibn

      22   Tamiyeh.  Do you remember that?

      23   A.  Yes, I remember the speech.

      24   Q.  And it involved the war with the Tartars, the Tartars?

      25   A.  Tarta, yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  And you said that in that speech that Mohammed Ibn

       2   Tamiyeh?

       3   A.  Ahmed.

       4   Q.  Ahmed?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  Ibn Tamiyeh said that it was okay just to kill civilians

       7   in a war and if they're innocent they'll go to heaven, right?

       8   Isn't that what you said?

       9   A.  Yes, he talk about that time and he said the Tartar is the

      10   Muslim people hit the Tartar or around the Tartar, under the

      11   war you can if you kill them, you not wrong.

      12   Q.  Now, isn't it a fact that what Mr. Ibn Tamiyeh said that

      13   under certain extreme circumstances that innocent women,

      14   children, or older people may be killed in a war, is that

      15   right?

      16   A.  Yes, because he say --

      17   Q.  Just yes, is the answer?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And isn't the circumstances that he said that it's okay

      20   was when the Tartars were using innocent Muslim women,

      21   children and older people as shields as they attacked Muslim

      22   villages, and that the Muslims could not defend themselves

      23   because they were not allowed to shoot at the innocent women,

      24   children, and older people who were being used as shields,

      25   isn't that how the story goes?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       2   A.  No, not exactly what you say.

       3   Q.  Isn't it a fact that he said that Muslims can protect

       4   their homes, their lands and their family and they can shoot

       5   at the attacking Tartars trying to avoid killing the innocent

       6   but if they don't and the innocents die then it is not a sin,

       7   it is permissible?  Isn't that what he said --

       8   A.  No, what I remember, if you don't mind I tell you what I

       9   remember, what he say.

      10   Q.  Sure, go right ahead, Mr. Al Fadl, tell us what you

      11   remember now what he said.

      12   A.  What I remember he say when is the Muslim people go to the

      13   Tartar, when the Tartar come to the Muslim land, the Muslim

      14   they should leave the area to go help the other Muslim against

      15   Tartar, but if the Muslim around them are the fighting Muslim

      16   they came and they kill the innocent this is their problem why

      17   they came around the Tartar.

      18   Q.  Now, also you said that you could kill any Muslim who was

      19   doing business with the Tartars?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  Isn't it a fact what Abu Hajer told you about what Tamiyeh

      22   said was that the Tartars were at war with the Muslims?

      23            Can you translate, please?

      24            (Through the interpreter)

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  That anyone doing business with the Tartars was helping

       2   the Tartars conquer the Muslim lands and kill the Muslim

       3   people?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  And that should you find anyone, any Muslim who is helping

       6   the Tartars kill and attack Muslims, that you are to bring

       7   them to the court at that time and if they are found guilty

       8   they are to be executed?

       9            Isn't that what he explained?

      10   A.  He talk during war like the people fight and the Muslim

      11   against the Tartar and you kill him because his problem why he

      12   help the Tartar and why he around the Tartar.

      13   Q.  Because he was helping the enemy?

      14   A.  Yes.  Help them, and with them.

      15   Q.  That's just like nowadays like what would be treason,

      16   isn't that right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And in many countries treason is punishable now by death,

      19   isn't that right?

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.  401.

      21            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      22   A.  Yes.

      23            THE COURT:  No.  It's stricken.

      24   Q.  Now, weren't there political discussions -- withdrawn.

      25            Weren't there discussions among al Qaeda members

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   about American troops fighting the Iraqis in Saudi Arabia?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  And isn't it, wasn't the discussion about the bad things

       4   that Saddam Hussain was doing to good Muslims in the Arabian

       5   peninsula?

       6            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       7   A.  I really don't remember.

       8   Q.  Wasn't there people who said it wasn't a bad thing for the

       9   Americans to help defeat Saddam Hussein in Kuwait?

      10            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      11   A.  In our group is your question?

      12   Q.  Wasn't there a number of people in the discussions that

      13   you had amongst al Qaeda members that believed it was not a

      14   bad thing for the Americans to fight the Iraqis and get them

      15   out of Kuwait?

      16   A.  Well, at that time, yeah, different people got different

      17   things.

      18   Q.  And isn't it that there was a dispute among all Muslims,

      19   not just al Qaeda, but all Muslims about America's role in

      20   Saudi Arabia and Kuwait?  Isn't that right?

      21            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.  Time frame.

      22            THE COURT:  Yes, time and place.

      23   Q.  During the Gulf War.

      24            (Through the interpreter)

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  And after the war was over isn't it the general Muslim

       2   belief that the Americans should leave Saudi, Arabia, the land

       3   of the holy places?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  And the vast majority of Muslims believed it in 1991 and

       6   believe it today, isn't that right?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  The only dispute is how, what to be done to force, to make

       9   the Americans leave the land of the holy places, isn't that

      10   right?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  And you, as you sit here right now, you believe that the

      13   American troops should not be in Saudi Arabia, isn't that

      14   correct?

      15   A.  You ask me about the religion or political?

      16   Q.  I'm asking you as a Muslim person who is sitting in this

      17   courtroom, do you believe that the Americans should still be

      18   in the land of the holy places?

      19   A.  It's hard to say yes or no.

      20   Q.  Doesn't many or most Muslims think that Americans who are

      21   not Muslims should not be guarding the most sacred places in

      22   Islam, isn't that right?

      23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

      24            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      25   A.  If you let me --

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN2
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1            THE COURT:  Sustained.  When I sustain an objection

       2   it means you don't answer the question.

       3            THE WITNESS:  Okay.

       4   Q.  Now, there was mention on your direct examination of

       5   something about Saudi Arabia, you remember that?  Withdrawn.

       6            Do you remember being asked about an Egyptian,

       7   remember I think the Egyptian Islamic jihad raising the

       8   question that the American embassy in Saudi Arabia should be

       9   attacked?

      10   A.  Yeah.

      11   Q.  And you said that obviously wasn't done, right?

      12   A.  No.

      13   Q.  That's correct?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  But you weren't clear why.  Do you remember testifying to

      16   that?

      17   A.  I don't remember why he didn't do it.

      18   Q.  Isn't it a fact that the Saudis that were members of al

      19   Qaeda who were present at the time that it was mentioned said

      20   no, you don't do that against civilian targets?

      21   A.  I remember some people they say no, it's not good idea.

      22   Q.  They didn't just say, no, it's not a good idea.  They said

      23   that you do not go against civilian targets?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Isn't that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Correct.

       2   Q.  And it was dropped?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  Right?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, this would be a good time

       7   to break.

       8            THE COURT:  All right.  We will break for lunch and

       9   we'll resume at 2:15.

      10            Counsel please remain in the courtroom.

      11            (Continued on next page)

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1            (Jury not present)

       2            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt, how much longer do you

       3   anticipate your cross?

       4            MR. SCHMIDT:  I expect to go through the afternoon.

       5   I am right now, I'm not sure whether I will finish this

       6   afternoon or not.

       7            THE COURT:  Very well.  We're adjourned to 2:15.

       8            (Luncheon recess)

       9            (Continued on next page)

      10

      11

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      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

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      21

      22

      23

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      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1                         AFTERNOON SESSION

       2                             2:15 p.m.

       3            (Jury not present)

       4            THE COURT:  The juror whose mother passed away

       5   writes:  "I am sorry to announce the passing of my mother on

       6   Monday, February 19, at 12:35 p.m.  The arrangements have not

       7   been final yet.  Our family is to try to have a funeral on

       8   Friday, based on availability of chapel.  If not Friday, then

       9   based on availability.  I will inform the marshal."

      10            MR. COHN:  Is your Honor convinced that the juror can

      11   pay attention for the rest of the week?  It is distracting to

      12   have your mother pass away, and all I am asking is have you

      13   inquired as to whether or not --

      14            THE COURT:  I think his actions, the fact that he

      15   does this demonstrates a desire to continue on the jury.  Does

      16   anybody else think that I should ask him whether it is a

      17   problem?

      18            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, I am sure it demonstrates

      19   fidelity.  I am not sure it demonstrates reality once his

      20   mother has just passed.  All I am asking is that we ask if the

      21   afternoon is well passed or if the juror will be elsewhere

      22   because they are upset.

      23            THE COURT:  I will observe his demeanor carefully

      24   during the afternoon and see if there is a problem.

      25            (Jury present)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL, resumed.

       2            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt, you may continue your

       3   cross-examination.

       4   CROSS-EXAMINATION continued

       5   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

       6   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, do you know what the word couple means?

       7   A.  Can you spell it.

       8   Q.  C-O-U-P-L-E.

       9   A.  No.

      10   Q.  Do you know that couple means two, pair?  Two?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12            THE COURT:  It doesn't mean two pair.  Couple means

      13   two.  Two pair are four.

      14            MR. SCHMIDT:  Thank you, your Honor.  I think I'm

      15   out.

      16            (Laughter)

      17   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, isn't it a fact that you told government

      18   agents that you were at the Damazine camp only on a couple of

      19   occasions?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And a couple means approximately two occasions.

      22   A.  Two or more.

      23   Q.  Does a couple mean two or more or a couple mean two?

      24            THE COURT:  The question isn't really what it means

      25   in Webster.  What did you understand it to mean?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    980
           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   A.  What I remember, I tell them I visit the Damazine camp

       2   different times.

       3   Q.  What you told them is that you visited the Damazine camp

       4   two times.

       5   A.  What I remember is more than two.

       6   Q.  Do you remember telling the government that it is two

       7   times?

       8   A.  No, I don't.

       9   Q.  Do you remember telling the government that it was a

      10   couple of times?

      11   A.  What I remember now, I visited the Damazine camp more than

      12   twice.

      13   Q.  Are you denying or admitting that you told the government

      14   that you went to the Damazine camp on a couple of occasions?

      15   A.  If I tell them two times that time, maybe I am wrong, but

      16   what the truth, more than twice.

      17   Q.  This conversation that you had with the government was in

      18   1996, more than four years ago.

      19            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      20            MR. SCHMIDT:  Withdrawn.

      21   Q.  The conversations that you had with the government, the

      22   initial ones, were in 1996, wasn't it?

      23   A.  I don't remember if '96 or '97.

      24   Q.  Do you recall when you first went and talked to the

      25   government?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   A.  No, I talked to them about that but I don't know the year.

       2   A lot of people forget about years.

       3   Q.  The first time that you talked to the government at the

       4   embassy, what year was that, sir?

       5   A.  '96.

       6   Q.  At the time that you had 30 or 36 conversations with the

       7   '96, wasn't it?

       8   A.  Yes, but different agents, and maybe they ask me different

       9   questions, different style.

      10   Q.  I am going to show you a document marked 3501-2, and I am

      11   going to ask you to look at the bottom, the last sentence, and

      12   then the date at the top, and see if this refreshes your

      13   recollection.

      14            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I approach the witness, your Honor?

      15            THE COURT:  As recollection as to what?

      16            MR. SCHMIDT:  As to the date he had a conversation.

      17            THE COURT:  The date of a particular conversation?

      18            MR. SCHMIDT:  The date of a conversation that he had

      19   about being at the Damazine camp on a couple of occasions.

      20            THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me, which paragraph is that?

      21            MR. SCHMIDT:  The very last sentence.

      22   A.  Yes, I say couple, but I mean more than two.

      23   Q.  This was in 1996, is that correct?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  This was over four years ago, is that right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  Within a few years of the time that you worked for Mr. Bin

       3   Laden, is that right?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Right now it is the year 2001, is that right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  Are you telling us that your memory is better now than

       8   when you had the conversation with the agents back in 1996?

       9   A.  No, sometimes you forget something today but later on you

      10   remember, just like human being.

      11   Q.  You had a discussion on direct examination concerning an

      12   attempt to purchase uranium.  Do you remember that?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  And that you were present at a location they brought a

      15   cylinder in a bag?

      16   A.  Location --

      17   Q.  I am asking, you were there at the time they brought a

      18   cylinder in a bag, right?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  What kind of bag was the cylinder carried in?

      21   A.  This size.

      22   Q.  Was it a fabric bag?  Was it a paper bag?

      23   A.  It's something like first time in my life I saw bag that

      24   kind.  So it look different than normal bag we use.

      25   Q.  What did it look like it was made out of?

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       1   A.  You open it like that and when it have two halves, the

       2   size same, and in the back it's --

       3            MR. SCHMIDT:  Could you translate the question what

       4   material was the bag made out of.  (Interpreted)

       5   A.  (Interpreted) Strong leather Err.

       6            THE COURT:  Leather?

       7            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, your Honor.

       8   Q.  Did you see the bag carried into the room?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  How many people carried the bag into the room?

      11   A.  I think one person and one with him.

      12   Q.  How many hands was he holding the bag in?

      13   A.  I don't remember really.

      14   Q.  Did he pick up the bag and put it on a table?

      15   A.  No, they put it in moquette.

      16            THE INTERPRETER:  On the wall-to-wall carpet.  It's

      17   called moquette.  It's a French word.

      18   Q.  After they opened up the bag, did anybody do anything to

      19   the cylinder?

      20   A.  Only Abu Rida al Suri.

      21   Q.  What did he do?

      22   A.  He got paper in his hand and something written in the

      23   cylinder and he looked at the paper and he looked at the

      24   cylinder.  He look at the cylinder and look at the paper for a

      25   few minutes.

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       1   Q.  Did he pick up the cylinder?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  How many hands did he use to pick up the cylinder?

       4   A.  I remember he took it and he just put it like that.  The

       5   cylinder is like this size.

       6   Q.  Approximately two and a half feet in length?  Would that

       7   be about right?

       8   A.  It could be like this size.  Could be.

       9   Q.  How big was the circumference around the pipe?

      10   A.  Maybe this.

      11   Q.  Do that again, please.

      12   A.  Maybe like this.

      13   Q.  Indicating maybe five, six inches?

      14            THE COURT:  Six inches in diameter?

      15            MR. SCHMIDT:  Diameter, excuse me.  Thank you.

      16   Q.  After he looked at it, he put it back in the bag?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And the people who brought the bag closed it up and walked

      19   out with it?

      20   A.  Yes.  I walked first me and Bashir outside, and later

      21   on -- after he close it, he still talk with the people and he

      22   tell me wait outside.  Me and the guy Bashir went out.

      23   Q.  Did anyone open up the cylinder?  (Interpreted)

      24   A.  No.

      25   Q.  When the person was carrying the bag with the cylinder,

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       1   was he walking normally?

       2   A.  Could you repeat the question.

       3   Q.  Would you translate that, please.  The person who was

       4   carrying the bag, was he walking normally? (Interpreted)

       5   A.  I don't remember that.

       6   Q.  Do you remember him walking funny?

       7   A.  I really don't remember.

       8   Q.  Did he look like he had any trouble with the bag?

       9   A.  I don't remember.

      10   Q.  There are a number of mosques in Khartoum that people who

      11   worked for Bin Laden went to, is that right?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Can you tell us the names of some of these mosques that

      14   the people who worked for Bin Laden went to.

      15   A.  We have Square 9 mosque in Riyadh City.  And we have Da'wa

      16   Organization mosque in Riyadh also.

      17   Q.  Da'wa, the one that there is a supermarket behind?

      18   A.  It's not far from the Riyadh Street.  And we got mosques

      19   in our companies.

      20   Q.  Is there a mosque called Al Kalla?

      21   A.  Could you repeat it.

      22   Q.  Is there a mosque called Al Kalla A-L, K-A-L-L-A?

      23   A.  I don't remember.

      24   Q.  Is there a mosque called Mashilla, M-A-S-H-I-L-L-A?

      25   A.  I don't remember.

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       1   Q.  Did anybody who worked for Bin Laden ever speak in the

       2   mosques in the Friday service?

       3   A.  Yes.  We went, most of the time we went to 9 Square in

       4   Riyadh City, and sometimes Da'wa Organization, sometimes we go

       5   to African University mosque.

       6   Q.  When you say sometimes we, different people went to

       7   different mosques different times?

       8   A.  You are right.

       9   Q.  And different people spoke at different mosques at

      10   different times, right?

      11   A.  You are right, yes.

      12   Q.  And the mosques were open to the public for everybody to

      13   listen.

      14   A.  Yes, but some mosques no, like Da'wa Organization is

      15   different.

      16   Q.  You know Abu Hafs el Masry, don't you?

      17   A.  Which one?

      18   Q.  El Masry?

      19   A.  We have two Abu Hafs el Masry.

      20   Q.  The Abu also known as Abu Hafs el Masry Atef.

      21   A.  We have el Masry al Khabir, we have Abu Hafs el Masry al

      22   Sashir.

      23   Q.  Abu Hafs the Egyptian, you know him?

      24   A.  I know both.

      25   Q.  You know the one who is Egyptian, is that correct?

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       1   A.  Yes, both Egyptian.

       2   Q.  You were shown a photograph of Abu Hafs the Egyptian?

       3   A.  Al Khabir, yes, el Masry, yes.

       4   Q.  There is one Abu Hafs who is closer to Bin Laden than the

       5   other, is that correct?

       6   A.  Yes, Abu Hafs al Khabir, right.

       7   Q.  You were shown a picture of Abu Hafs al Khabir on October

       8   17, 1997.  Do you remember being shown a photograph of him?

       9   A.  I don't remember the year, but I remember they show me

      10   picture of him.

      11   Q.  Do you remember not being able to identify him?

      12   A.  I don't remember, but I remember they show me picture of,

      13   I tell them this Abu Hafs el Masry.  But I don't know which

      14   year.

      15   Q.  Didn't you have trouble identifying a picture of Abu Hafs?

      16   A.  It could.  Sometimes they show me a lot of photographs and

      17   I tell them I don't recognize this guy because he shave his

      18   beard or because he dress different, or like that.

      19   Q.  So what you are saying is that you might not have been

      20   able to identify someone that you knew very well because his

      21   beard was shaven; is that what you are saying?

      22   A.  Not only beard, but sometimes a picture when he is very

      23   younger, even before he come to the group.

      24   Q.  His appearance was different because it may not have been

      25   the same as when you see him all the time in the Sudan, right?

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       1   A.  Not only the beard.  It could be the photograph, or

       2   whoever make the photograph of him, he don't make it good.

       3   Q.  Weren't you shown a photograph of a newspaper of Mohammed

       4   Atef and you were unable to identify him?

       5   A.  Would you repeat that.

       6   Q.  Weren't you shown a photograph of Mohamed Atef, and you

       7   were unable to identify that photograph as Mohamed Atef?

       8   A.  Usually when they --

       9   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, I am asking you, were you shown a photograph

      10   of Mohamed Atef and you were unable to identify him?  Yes or

      11   no.

      12   A.  I don't remember.

      13   Q.  Did you ever hear of the name of Mustafa Hamza?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Did you ever tell the government that you were not sure

      16   whether Abu Hafs or Mohamed Atef and Mustafa Hamza was the

      17   same person?

      18            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      19            THE COURT:  Restate your question.

      20   Q.  Did you ever tell the government that you were unsure that

      21   Abu Hafs and Mustafa Hamza were the same person?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  I am going to show you what is marked as 3501-7 on page 2.

      24   I would ask you to read or have read to you by the interpreter

      25   the first four sentences.

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       1            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I approach the witness?

       2            THE COURT:  Yes.

       3            (Interpreter complies)

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Isn't it a fact that in October 1997 you were shown a

       6   photograph of Mohamed Atef, also known to you as Abu Hafs --

       7   A.  Masry.

       8   Q.  -- and you were unable to identify the photograph?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  That is because he looked different in the photograph than

      11   he looked to you when you saw him in the Sudan and Pakistan,

      12   is that correct?

      13   A.  Yes.  Maybe the picture is not clear or like that.

      14   Q.  In fact, lots of people's appearance are very different

      15   when they have the Islamic beard and dress than when they

      16   shave and wear western clothes, is that correct?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And sometimes it is very hard to know who that person is?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  When they are photographed in different attire and

      21   different facial hair.

      22   A.  Right.

      23   Q.  Do you know a person named Abu Mohamed al Iraqi?

      24   A.  I don't remember.

      25   Q.  You first arrived in Pakistan in 1988, is that correct?

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       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  But you were aware of many things that were being done in

       3   Pakistan since 1986, is that correct?

       4   A.  Could you repeat the question.

       5   Q.  You were aware of many things that were going on in

       6   Pakistan since 1986 after you came to the United States, is

       7   that right?

       8   A.  Can she help me?

       9   Q.  Sure.

      10            (Interpreted)

      11   A.  Yes, when I was in Farouq mosque in Brooklyn.

      12   Q.  There were many Muslims who traveled to Pakistan and

      13   Afghanistan not only to fight but to do charity work, isn't

      14   that correct?

      15   A.  Yes, correct.

      16   Q.  They did relief work for the refugees, is that right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  They brought books and taught children?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  You were in -- withdrawn.

      21            Mr. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan until about 1991, is

      22   that correct?

      23   A.  Yes, he traveled back and forth Saudi Arabia.

      24   Q.  During the whole time from 1988 when you first came to

      25   Pakistan and Afghanistan until you finally left and Mr. Bin

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       1   Laden left Pakistan and Afghanistan to come to the Sudan,

       2   isn't it a fact that you never once heard Mr. Bin Laden say

       3   anything bad about the United States?

       4   A.  In Afghanistan time?

       5   Q.  Yes.

       6   A.  What I remember, we have book at that time when we are in

       7   Afghanistan.

       8   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, I asked you a question.

       9            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.

      10   Q.  That can be answered yes or no.

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.  He was

      12   giving him an answer and he stopped him.

      13            THE COURT:  You may continue your answer.

      14   A.  When we are in Afghanistan, I remember the Egyptian guy,

      15   his name Dr. Fadhl, and Saudi guy, they wrote book, and they

      16   called the book "The Clear Evidence to Make the Saudi

      17   Government UnMuslim Government," and at that time the people

      18   start to study why the Saudi government is not Muslim, because

      19   his relationship with Americans and Americans control the oil

      20   and control the money in Saudi Arabia.  So that start over

      21   there, I think end of '89 and area of '950.

      22   Q.  Let me ask the question again.  Perhaps we should have the

      23   interpreter translate this question.

      24            During the period of time that you were in

      25   Afghanistan and Pakistan and Usama Bin Laden was there as

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       1   well, isn't it a fact that you never heard Bin Laden speak

       2   against the Americans or American interests?

       3   A.  I really don't remember.

       4   Q.  Didn't you tell the government on November 4 or 5 of 1996

       5   that you never heard Bin Laden speak of the Americans or

       6   attacking Americans or American interests when you were in

       7   Afghanistan?

       8   A.  Yes, but not the group.  Himself -- himself, no.

       9   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl --

      10            THE COURT:  Let him answer.

      11   Q.  I said Mr. Bin Laden, I did not say any other people.  Do

      12   you understand my question?

      13   A.  But when you were --

      14            THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  Your question is Bin

      15   Laden personally?

      16            MR. SCHMIDT:  I said Mr. Bin Laden.  I don't know

      17   what else that means.

      18   A.  But sometimes you use it as a group.

      19   Q.  I have never used it as a group.

      20            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt.

      21   Q.  Isn't it a fact --

      22            THE COURT:  Just one moment, please.  The question is

      23   whether you heard Mr. Bin Laden personally speak anything bad

      24   about the United States during this period between 1988 in the

      25   time he left to go to the Sudan, in that period of time.

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       1            THE WITNESS:  Personally, no.

       2   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, you told us that you took a bayat.

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  You took that while you were in Afghanistan, is that

       5   correct?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  It was a document, wasn't it?

       8   A.  Not only documents.

       9   Q.  Was there a document that you had to read?

      10   A.  Documents and talking.

      11   Q.  One of the things that you read that was a condition of

      12   being in al Qaeda back in 1989 was that you could belong to no

      13   other Islamic Group other than al Qaeda, isn't that right?

      14   A.  It's yes, first time they say, yes, you have to be in al

      15   Qaeda group only.

      16   Q.  Thank you.  You also were told and read that there was

      17   that you must keep your work and your missions confidential.

      18   (Interpreted)

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  You were told and you read that you were not to talk about

      21   your work for al Qaeda with anybody other than your immediate

      22   superior, isn't that right?

      23   A.  No, it is not like what you said.

      24   Q.  Weren't you told that if you needed to talk to anyone

      25   other than your immediate superior for the purpose of what you

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       1   were doing you needed to get the permission of your immediate

       2   superior?

       3   A.  If you want me explain I explain, because it is hard to

       4   say yes or no.

       5   Q.  Then please explain.

       6   A.  If we are 10 guys in a group, we went somewhere, we know

       7   what going on about, everybody know his rule and emir tell

       8   everybody what he has to do.  So when we went for prayer after

       9   prayer, with the same 10 guys, we talk about what going on.

      10   Q.  So if all 10 of you had the same mission, the same role,

      11   you were able to talk to them, right?

      12   A.  This is the for attack or mission, for military purpose.

      13   But if someone is going to be made fatwah or they want to send

      14   troops somewhere, one speaks for all of the members.

      15   Q.  That is when there is a discussion about general goals,

      16   right?

      17   A.  Yes, about who is going, who is not going.

      18   Q.  General goals there was a discussion.

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Specific, there were no discussions other than the people

      21   on each particular mission, is that correct?

      22   A.  Not exactly what you say.

      23   Q.  Weren't you told that you were to keep your work

      24   confidential and not discuss it with people, not to talk about

      25   it, not to gossip about it?  Isn't that right?

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       1   A.  When they say that, they talk about the people not in the

       2   group, not the member, the people in Qaeda member.

       3   Q.  Let's talk about some things that you did for al Qaeda.

       4   You delivered some documents in Egypt, is that correct?

       5   A.  Yes, from Pakistan.

       6   Q.  Were you told what was in the documents?

       7   A.  No.

       8   Q.  Were they sealed?

       9   A.  What means sealed?  (Interpreted)

      10            Yes.

      11   Q.  You were given documents, told to give them to a person,

      12   and that was it, right?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  No one told you about what was in the documents, is that

      15   correct?

      16   A.  No.

      17   Q.  You didn't have a discussion with the people when you were

      18   in Egypt about what was in the documents, is that correct?

      19   A.  No.

      20   Q.  And when you came back you didn't discuss it with anybody,

      21   what was in the documents, is that correct?

      22   A.  Well, the people near me in Qaeda tell me I went to Egypt,

      23   I saw Abu Hafs el Masry and I saw Bakhri, and I traveled from

      24   Karachi to Egypt.  This what I know about my trip, I tell

      25   them.

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       1   Q.  But you didn't know what the purpose was other than an

       2   envelope, is that right?  You were not --

       3   A.  What I know?

       4   Q.  You were not told, is that correct?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  You went to Hungary.

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  And you were told to meet a particular person, is that

       9   correct?

      10   A.  Yes, in Budapest.

      11   Q.  You weren't told why you were going there, were you?

      12   A.  They said he want to talk to you over there.

      13   Q.  You weren't told why you were going there before you left,

      14   is that correct?

      15   A.  Yes, because I don't have visa, they want to talk to me,

      16   they say maybe you have problem in airport.  Because each trip

      17   is different.  Some trips they tell you everything seems fine.

      18   But if some problems they think, they try don't to tell you,

      19   if you catch by police or anything, you don't have to say

      20   anything.

      21   Q.  They didn't tell you when you went to Hungary, is that

      22   correct?

      23   A.  Because I didn't have visa.

      24   Q.  Because you didn't have visa?

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1   Q.  Then you learned not being told anything in Hungary but

       2   being told to go to Zagreb.

       3   A.  Correct.

       4   Q.  And you weren't told when you were going to Zagreb why you

       5   were going to Zagreb, is that correct?

       6   A.  No, Bin Laden by himself, and I remember Abu Faqil el

       7   Makkee al Hajj, in the same office told me when you go to

       8   Zagreb after Budapest we need to study the business investment

       9   over there, because the Croatian government sell a lot of

      10   companies.

      11   Q.  So you knew the portion to go to Zagreb was to get

      12   business and commercial information.

      13   A.  And also to meet a person name Mohamed Sarudani, and he

      14   tell me what going on inside Bosnia.

      15   Q.  And that information, the commercial information from

      16   Croatia and information about what's going on in Bosnia was

      17   given to you and you brought it back.

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  You went to Nairobi in 1991, didn't you?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And not only did you go, you went with your wife, isn't

      22   that correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  You weren't told about why you were going, were you?

      25   A.  No.  What I remember what he told me, he told me this is

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       1   envelope, you going to meet, is Egyptian guy, I forget his

       2   name right now, he you meet him, give him the envelope, and we

       3   need you to work over there and take your wife with you.  When

       4   we went over there, the Egyptian guy he tell me no, we talk

       5   with Banshir about that, and you going to go to Pakistan.

       6   After that, we went to Pakistan.

       7   Q.  Never finding out what the purpose was of going to Kenya,

       8   is that correct?  It was kept confidential from you, isn't

       9   that right?

      10   A.  Sometimes they change their mind after they tell you go

      11   somewhere for working over there, and sometimes, because the

      12   envelope I have, the documents I give to the Egyptian guy.

      13   Q.  Were you ever told the reason that you were going to

      14   Kenya?

      15   A.  Not that time, but I remember year or something after, I

      16   know Banshiri, he tried to work in horn of Africa, in Djibouti

      17   and Kenya and Yemen and that region.

      18   Q.  Anything else?

      19   A.  No.

      20   Q.  In your bayat, you were also told to preserve the money of

      21   Al Qaeda, is that right?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Part of that would be taking an oath not to steal from Al

      24   Qaeda.

      25   A.  Yes.

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       1   Q.  And you swore a bayat not to steal from Al Qaeda.

       2   A.  Correct.

       3   Q.  There is no dispute among scholars, Islamic scholars,

       4   about the wrongfulness of stealing for yourself when you are

       5   not starving, isn't that right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  You also were told in your bayat that your superiors must

       8   follow Islamic law.

       9   A.  Correct.

      10   Q.  That unless they follow Islamic law you don't have to do

      11   what they ask, is that correct?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  And you were told that you should obey your leaders as

      14   much as possible.

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  And that meant that if you believed that they were doing

      17   or saying or asking you to do something that was not

      18   Islamically correct, you did not have to obey them.  Isn't

      19   that right?

      20   A.  Could you repeat.

      21   Q.  That meant that if you believed your superior told you to

      22   do something that was not Islamically correct, you did not

      23   have to listen to him, isn't that right?

      24   A.  We talk about it.  If he tell me something is not right,

      25   we talk.  Like first time was --

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       1   Q.  If one of your leaders told you to steal from an orphanage

       2   because they didn't like that orphanage, would you do it?

       3   A.  What mean orphanage?  (Interpreted)

       4            No, I don't believe.

       5   Q.  Because it would be unIslamic, wouldn't it?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  If one of your leaders told you that, see that boy on the

       8   street?  I don't like him, he looks different, go and kill

       9   him.  Would you go and kill him?

      10   A.  No.

      11   Q.  Because it would be unIslamic, right?

      12   A.  No, but if he is in building with other military people it

      13   would make a difference.  But nobody tell you go and kill that

      14   baby, that never going to happen.  But if the baby inside

      15   building with military and other staff, that difference.

      16   Q.  Thank you, Mr. Al-Fadl.  Am I correct that if you are told

      17   that you should do something that you personally did not

      18   believe was Islamic, that you had not only the right but the

      19   responsibility not to participate?  Isn't that correct?

      20   A.  Well, in a group we have something fatwah.  There is no

      21   one tell you go and do that.  They make fatwah, they make it

      22   clear, they tell you what the purpose of fatwah, what the

      23   benefit for what we doing.  Everything they explain everything

      24   for you, why they make fatwah, what's the benefit from that

      25   attack or why they doing that.  There is no one come and tell

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   you just go do that.  So everything is fatwah, with shura

       2   council and meeting and lecture.

       3   Q.  The purpose of these meetings and lectures were to

       4   convince you that whatever the order was was Islamically

       5   correct, isn't that right?

       6   A.  It is not only Islamic, because they follow specific

       7   scholar.  Some scholars, they don't believe what we doing.  So

       8   when you say Islamic scholars, that mean all the scholars

       9   agree.  Some scholars don't agree what we doing.

      10   Q.  If the scholars did not agree and you were not convinced

      11   that it was Islamically correct, you would not do it, is that

      12   correct?

      13   A.  If they say fatwah, yes, I do it.

      14   Q.  Even if the Islamic scholars disagreed?

      15   A.  We talk about the scholars in a group.

      16            THE COURT:  If the scholars in al Qaeda agree, then

      17   what happens?

      18            THE WITNESS:  That mean it's fatwah.  If they ask me

      19   to do it, yes.

      20   Q.  Aren't there other scholars that the people in al Qaeda

      21   always discussed?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  When you say scholars, in al Qaeda you had, I guess you

      24   called Abu Hajer, he was not even a member of al Qaeda, was

      25   he?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Could you repeat the question.

       2   Q.  Was one of the scholars you are talking about Abu Hajer?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  He was not even a member, to your knowledge, of al Qaeda,

       5   is that correct?

       6   A.  What I believe, he is one of our people in al Qaeda.

       7   Q.  Didn't you say that you did not know and other people said

       8   that he was not?

       9   A.  Yes.  I never see him --

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.  May he

      11   finish the answer?

      12            THE COURT:  Yes.

      13   A.  I never see him make bayat.  He never tell me I am member

      14   of al Qaeda.  But the time between when we start al Qaeda

      15   until I left al Qaeda, he is arguing and talking about the

      16   stuff in guesthouse, talking about stuff near Bin Laden, and

      17   make fatwah and make a speech.  All that for me, if he is not

      18   al Qaeda member, he can't do that.

      19   Q.  Didn't Abu Rida tell you that he was not a member of al

      20   Qaeda?

      21   A.  Yes, some people say that.  Some people, they say he is

      22   not al Qaeda member, but he help al Qaeda agenda.

      23   Q.  Wasn't Mr. Bin Laden in contact with religious scholars in

      24   Saudi Arabia?

      25   A.  Yes, he got two scholars.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  Didn't he talk about the scholars who were imprisoned in

       2   Saudi Arabia?

       3   A.  Yes, Salman al Auda and Safar al Hawali.

       4            MR. SCHMIDT:  We will try to get the spelling later

       5   for you.

       6   Q.  Didn't he tell you about what their beliefs were?

       7   A.  Could you repeat the question.

       8   Q.  Didn't he tell you what their beliefs were?

       9   A.  Who is tell me?

      10   Q.  Mr. Bin Laden.  The scholars -- withdrawn.

      11            Weren't you aware of those scholars' belief that

      12   force should not be used in the land of the holy places?

      13   A.  Well, if you let me just answer.  Safar al Hawali, he

      14   wrote a book about what he know, and we have discussion.  He

      15   say war, yes, but innocent people is not right.  But make a

      16   war is yes.  And the book is named Kashfel Kuma.

      17   Q.  So innocent people were not to be harmed, isn't that

      18   right?

      19   A.  This what Safar al Hawali believe, yes.

      20   Q.  Just like the Saudis said back in 1993 when someone raised

      21   the idea of the Saudi embassy being bombed, they said no, no

      22   innocents.

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Isn't that the Saudi belief?

      25   A.  Not --

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  Isn't that the Saudi belief, Mr. Al-Fadl?

       2   A.  Let me answer.  Some of our membership, they don't believe

       3   in trying to kill innocent, some of the members, and they left

       4   the group.  But the people that support the fatwah, they stay

       5   in group and that --

       6            THE COURT:  Let him finish.

       7            MR. SCHMIDT:  I apologize.

       8   A.  And I remember that in '93.

       9   Q.  9 --

      10   A.  '93 or '94.

      11   Q.  So now you are telling us for the first time that the

      12   people who didn't believe in killing innocents all left in

      13   1993?

      14   A.  This is what I remember.

      15   Q.  Is that what you are telling us now?

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      17   A.  That what I remember.

      18   Q.  Remember now?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  You never mentioned it to anybody before, did you?

      21            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      22   A.  You ask me questions and sometimes question refresh my

      23   mind and I try to give you right answer.

      24   Q.  Isn't it a fact that the group that talked about the

      25   bombing of the Saudi embassy is the Islamic Jihad of Egypt?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Wasn't that right?

       2   A.  It's not only that.  My first answer, when the people talk

       3   about the attack inside Egypt, some people, they left the

       4   group, they say that's not good thing to do.

       5   Q.  Mr. Al-Fadl, you told us before that the person who raised

       6   the question of bombing an American Embassy in Saudi Arabia

       7   was an Egyptian jihad member?

       8   A.  Yes, Abu el Masry.

       9   Q.  When Sheikh Rahman was arrested in the United States -- do

      10   you remember that?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  The Egyptian jihad people wanted to do something in

      13   revenge, isn't that right?

      14   A.  Correct.

      15   Q.  And nothing was done, isn't that right?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  No one would agree to kill innocents in response to that,

      18   isn't that correct, Mr. Al-Fadl?

      19   A.  Let me answer.

      20   Q.  I asked you a question.  If you can't answer it, don't

      21   answer it.

      22            THE COURT:  He asked you a question is that correct.

      23   Now you can respond to that request.

      24   A.  I remember some people, they left the group, they say we

      25   don't want to do things immediately, we don't like that, and

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Bin Laden say we do, but this is going to take time.

       2   Q.  You never said that to the government.  What you said to

       3   the government, isn't that correct, that nothing was done and

       4   the Egyptian jihad members left because of it; isn't that what

       5   you said?

       6   A.  No, not all of the jihad group.  What I tell them, some of

       7   people, but not all the group.

       8   Q.  Thirteen to 20 members who were in Sudan at that time

       9   left, is that right?

      10   A.  Could you repeat.

      11   Q.  Thirteen to 20 Egyptian Islamic jihad members left the

      12   Sudan at that time.

      13   A.  Yes, it could be that, yes.

      14   Q.  You were very much involved with the NIF when you came

      15   back to the Sudan, isn't that right?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  You worked for the NIF, didn't you?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  In fact, you were under orders from the NIF to deliver

      20   weapons to the NIF militia in its civil war in the south of

      21   Sudan, isn't that right?

      22   A.  At that time in southwest Sudan, yes.

      23   Q.  At that time, that was under the authority of the NIF, the

      24   government of Sudan.

      25   A.  Yes, under militia headquarters.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  And you disobeyed the orders and they put you in jail,

       2   isn't that right?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And eventually you came out and you went to work in Usama

       5   Bin Laden's businesses, isn't that right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  And then after a period of time you went back to work for

       8   the NIF.

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  The NIF were the people who were asking you about this

      11   assassination plot against al Mahdi, isn't that correct?

      12   A.  Correct.

      13   Q.  In fact, you have always been an employee of the NIF since

      14   you returned to the Sudan, haven't you?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  And you always reported to the NIF about what Bin Laden

      17   was doing since Bin Laden came to the Sudan, isn't that right?

      18   A.  I do both.  I take from Bin Laden to NIF, from NIF to Bin

      19   Laden.

      20   Q.  So you played both sides, don't you?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  To your own advantage?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Isn't that right?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  And you got paid by the NIF, didn't you?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  They rewarded you.

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  How much did they pay you?

       6   A.  I don't remember now.

       7   Q.  You didn't tell Bin Laden that you were getting paid by

       8   the NIF for spying on him, did you?

       9   A.  No, but he know I work for the delegation in Sudan.

      10   Q.  But he didn't know that you spy on him.

      11   A.  They say the information you bring from Bin Laden group,

      12   we have great relationship with him, we try to make everything

      13   great for him.  We just want to make sure nobody going to make

      14   something wrong against him or nobody want to do something

      15   inside the group.

      16   Q.  The NIF used you to keep a short leash on Mr. Bin Laden,

      17   is that right?

      18   A.  Yes, anything happen in our group, I tell them and I make

      19   interview for new people coming into Al Qaeda group in Sudan.

      20   Q.  The NIF, the government of the Sudan, right, was able to

      21   obtain weapons on its own from eastern European countries,

      22   weren't they, and China?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  You told us that you embezzled $110,000 from Mr. Bin

      25   Laden, is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  In fact, back in 1991, not only did you go to jail for

       3   disobeying an order, you went to jail for passing a bad check.

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  In fact, back in 1986 you embezzled $600 from your father

       6   so you could go to the United States.

       7   A.  Could you repeat your question.

       8   Q.  Back in 1986 when your father was out of the country and

       9   your brother was running one of the oil presses, he gave you a

      10   check that was in Sudanese pounds, it was approximately $600,

      11   that you used to buy your airplane ticket to the United

      12   States; isn't that right?

      13   A.  No.  My older brother, he runs a business for my dad, and

      14   he make a letter to the embassy for my dad, he give me the

      15   money because he say my dad he want to do that, and this what

      16   happened.  I didn't take any money without my dad order.

      17   That's never happened.

      18   Q.  You told us that you took $110,000 from Bin Laden, is that

      19   correct?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  What company were you working for at that time?

      22   A.  Laden International company, Taba Investment, and Qudurat

      23   Transportation.

      24   Q.  You told us here that what you used that money for was to

      25   buy some residential -- to buy some plots of land for your

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   brother and your sister and you, is that right?

       2   A.  No, my sister, and I buy the other land under my name.

       3   Q.  Didn't you use some of the money to build a factory for

       4   your brother?

       5   A.  No.

       6   Q.  Didn't you in fact build a factory for your brother Adel

       7   in Umduhrman --

       8   A.  No.

       9   Q.  -- called Abu Al-Muwaffaq Oil Press?

      10   A.  No.  My dad help him, because my dad he got three

      11   companies and he help him to make that factory, not me.

      12   Q.  Didn't you tell a government agent on October 21, 1996,

      13   that you embezzled large sums of money from Bin Laden in 1994

      14   and used to buy for yourself many residential lots in

      15   Umduhrman and al Jerafees, and also used the money to build a

      16   factory for your Adel in Umduhrman known as the Abu

      17   Al-Muwaffaq Oil Press?

      18   A.  No.

      19   Q.  I am going to show you what has been marked as 3501-45,

      20   page 147, and I ask the interpreter to read the last paragraph

      21   to him.  May I approach the witness, your Honor?

      22            THE COURT:  Yes.  How much longer?

      23            MR. SCHMIDT:  Half hour, 45 minutes.

      24            (Interpreter complies)

      25   A.  No, that's never happen.  I tell them I got the money and

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   I buy residential but not factory for my brother.

       2   Q.  So is it your testimony now that you never told an agent

       3   of the United States government that you used some of the

       4   money you stole to help your brother build that oil press

       5   factory?

       6   A.  No, I never say that.  Maybe they understand me wrong.

       7   Q.  Some of the ways that you stole this money was that you

       8   diverted commodities to friends of yours to sell, isn't that

       9   right?

      10   A.  Would she help me.  (Interpreted)

      11            Yes, I sell the stuff for them and they give me

      12   commission.

      13   Q.  You didn't sell the stuff for them, you diverted some of

      14   the oil that was coming in through Mr. Bin Laden's connections

      15   to a friend of yours who then sold it and split the profits

      16   with you, isn't that right?

      17   A.  What I remember, I sold the stuff for them and they give

      18   me commission.  They sell it and they give me the money back

      19   and I got the commission.

      20   Q.  You never collected money for Mr. Bin Laden of the

      21   commodities that you gave your friends, isn't that right?

      22   A.  I don't understand what you say.  (Interpreted)

      23            What we do, we sell the stuff, and when I sell the

      24   stuff to them they give me commission, and I bring the money

      25   back to the company, and I take the commission.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12kkbin3
                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  What commodities did you do this with?  (Interpreted)

       2   A.  Sugar and oil and soap.

       3   Q.  One of your friends ended up getting sued by Mr. Bin

       4   Laden's lawyers because of one of your sugar deals, isn't that

       5   right?

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  His name is Sadeek Ali Mohamed, isn't that right?

       8   A.  Correct.

       9   Q.  He is one of the people that you diverted sugar to, he

      10   sold it and didn't pay all the money he owed Mr. Bin Laden,

      11   isn't that right?

      12   A.  No.  I take the commission from Faizel and other guy but

      13   not from al Sadeek.

      14   Q.  You had another arrangement with --

      15   A.  With Faizel but not with Sadeek.

      16   Q.  How much were you supposed to get from Mr. Sadeek?

      17   A.  I don't take any money from al Sadeek.

      18   Q.  You made an arrangement where you gave him $600,000 of

      19   sugar that he never paid back, did he?

      20   A.  He paid some but not all of it.

      21   Q.  And he went to jail because of that.

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  And they sold all of his property and businesses to pay

      24   back.

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   al-Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  You complained that you were able to pay back only so much

       2   money to Mr. Bin Laden, isn't that right?

       3   A.  I pay back I think between 25 to $30,000.

       4   Q.  You still have assets worth money in the Sudan, don't you?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  You have the property in your name, isn't that right?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  And you have your interest with your brother in the oil

       9   press company, don't you?

      10   A.  No.  That's -- that's the company.  That's under Islamic

      11   National front.  The company which my brother, it's under

      12   Islamic National Front.

      13   Q.  What assets do you have besides the property?

      14   A.  I have Azrami company.  It's under my name but it's

      15   umbrella for Islamic National Front.

      16   Q.  When you claimed you had nothing left to give Mr. Bin

      17   Laden back, you had the properties that you used his money to

      18   buy.

      19   A.  Yes.

      20            (Continued on next page)

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  Did you sell the properties to give the money back to

       2   Mr. Bin Laden?

       3   A.  I sell one between 25 to 30 thousand dollars back.

       4   Q.  Did you sell the other properties?

       5   A.  No.

       6   Q.  Isn't it a fact that the American government is giving you

       7   money because you've given up your assets in the Sudan, you

       8   can't get your assets in the Sudan?

       9   A.  Could you repeat the question?

      10   Q.  Isn't it part of your agreement to get the loan from the

      11   American government because you've given up your getting your

      12   assets in the Sudan?

      13   A.  No, they say they going to get me twenty thousand to get

      14   to start my life, is what they say.

      15   Q.  But isn't it that you have substantial -- doesn't it say

      16   that you have substantial assets in the Sudan that you cannot

      17   get to?

      18   A.  But how I'm here now, how I going to say this?

      19   Q.  Now, when, so you still had assets when you told Mr. Bin

      20   Laden to his face that you had no more money to give him, is

      21   that right?

      22   A.  Yes, that's correct.

      23   Q.  You lied to him to his face because you had --

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  -- something that you had to give him, is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  Now, in fact you lied to Mr. Bin Laden or the other people

       3   that you took this oath to their faces at least three times,

       4   right?

       5   A.  Yes.  You ask me why I did that and I tell him he took

       6   money, Egyptian jihad people they got more right, they got

       7   more salary, some new people they got more salaries than the

       8   people that start the group, and I explained that to him.

       9   Q.  You Didn't tell Mr. Bin Laden that you were making money

      10   from the NIF as well, did you?

      11   A.  No, he know, he know I work for the office.

      12   Q.  He knew that you were getting money not only from Tabba,

      13   not only from al Qaeda, but also from the NIF for spying on

      14   him?  He knew?

      15   A.  He knew I work for the office.

      16   Q.  The only reason that you told Al Tayyib that you did steal

      17   the money is that they already had the proof against you,

      18   right?

      19   A.  He asked me first time and I say no, I didn't take any

      20   money.

      21   Q.  Right.  They asked you again and you said no, I didn't

      22   take any money.  And then the third time they had the proof

      23   and you knew that you were in the corner and you said, oh, yes

      24   I did take it?

      25   A.  He asked me.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  Isn't that what happened?

       2   A.  What he tell me, first of all, I tell him I got

       3   commission, I say, yes, what I sell the sugar and oil sell, I

       4   got commission.

       5   Q.  Isn't that the same thing that you did when you talked to

       6   the Americans about your stealing?

       7   A.  No.

       8   Q.  You didn't tell the Americans that you were a thief, did

       9   you?

      10   A.  Yeah, it take me two days until I tell them.

      11   Q.  It took you two months and thirty times to tell them,

      12   isn't that right?

      13   A.  No, when they finish the three weeks about all the

      14   question about group, after that they tell me now we finished

      15   everything, but we need to know something about you, I told

      16   them I don't have anything yet and they say no --

      17   Q.  I apologize?

      18   A.  They say no, we know something about you.  We understand

      19   you did ask, but you have to tell this because we know it.

      20   And the second day I tell them, yes, I took money from Bin

      21   Laden.

      22   Q.  You started talking to the Americans on September 7, 1996,

      23   is that right?

      24   A.  I don't remember the date.

      25   Q.  About that time, right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Yes, yes.

       2   Q.  And you told the Americans on October 21st about the 27th

       3   time that you met with them, that you were a thief, right?

       4   A.  I don't understand what you say.

       5   Q.  Is that right?  You told them about seven weeks, six weeks

       6   later after seeing them about twenty-seven times that you were

       7   a thief, isn't that right?

       8   A.  Well, first time when I saw them we talk about the group,

       9   they never ask me about did I take money.  They ask me

      10   everything, but the last two days they start ask me, we know

      11   now everything about the group.  We want to know something

      12   about you, and you have to tell us that.  I say I don't have

      13   anything.  They say, no, we know something about you.  If you

      14   tell us, we going to trust you.  And the second day I tell

      15   them, yes, I took money from Bin Laden.

      16            THE COURT:  We'll take our midafternoon recess.

      17            (Recess)

      18            (Continued on next page)

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1            (In open court; jury not present)

       2            THE COURT:  All right.  Please be seated.  I asked

       3   the juror whose mother passed away how he was doing, how he

       4   was and he said, I'm all right.  I'm hanging in there.

       5            Let's try and complete this witness today.  I

       6   understand Mr. Schmidt has about 15 more minutes.  The

       7   government tells me it has about 15 minutes of redirect.

       8   Let's make every effort to complete this witness today, and

       9   then to take up any matters relating to tomorrow's agenda.

      10            Will you tell them to bring the jury in.

      11            (Continued on next page)

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1            (Jury present; witness resumed)

       2            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt, you may resume.

       3   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

       4   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, the only reason you told the Americans about

       5   being a thief that is because you thought they already knew

       6   about it, isn't that correct?

       7   A.  Yeah, they tell me that they say we know about that.

       8   Q.  And if they didn't say that, you would have never told

       9   them, isn't that right?

      10   A.  If they don't ask me, yeah.

      11   Q.  That's correct.

      12            Now, when did you start working at al Sadani?

      13   A.  Maybe in '94, year '94.

      14   Q.  Near the end of '94?

      15   A.  I didn't remember which month, but I think during '94.

      16   Q.  Now, you also got into financial trouble with al Sadani,

      17   didn't you?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  There was money missing from al Sadani, isn't that right?

      20   A.  When the money missing because we used the money to

      21   support some of the Islamic National Front, we spend the money

      22   for the people work, bring the militia, like that, and the

      23   government, the Islamic National Front issued a loan from the

      24   bank to support the money we spent.  Until 1995 you don't give

      25   me the money and that's why I stopped working them, and I went

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Kalif Sadur.

       2   Q.  You think the NIF accused you of stealing money, isn't

       3   that right?

       4   A.  It's not like that, but because somebody tell them I give

       5   Egyptian guy he wrote a book against Tayyib and he tell them

       6   Ab Bakkar he did that, he give Abu Bakar had El Masry's money

       7   to wrote book against Tayyib.

       8   Q.  So then the NIF was angry at you, right?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  And they accused you of stealing money from al Sadani,

      11   they accused you?

      12   A.  Yes, they don't pay the money back and they don't give me

      13   the loan from Khartoum bank.

      14   Q.  And that's right, they said that you had the money you had

      15   to pay it back, right?

      16   A.  Yes, because the loan, is a reason in my name, my older

      17   brother name, so all the papers it's our name.  If any

      18   problem, we got the problem.

      19   Q.  And you said that no, it wasn't, we didn't take the money,

      20   these other two people from NIF took the money, right?

      21   A.  It's not like that, because they should, when I spend the

      22   money for the Islamic National Front benefit they should give

      23   me a loan from Khartoum bank, and every time I went to them I

      24   went Dr. Abaka Kabir, Dr. Muslak Sabir, and I told them we

      25   spent a lot of money and we don't have a lot of money and we

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   have to bring that money back to the bank, but later on I hear

       2   somebody tell that office I here to make a tape, wrote book

       3   against Tayyib.

       4   Q.  They said you took the money and you said no, it was

       5   Dr. Abd al-Mun'Imalkhabir, and Mohammed Hashim Hasan, and

       6   Dr. Abdallah Mohammed Yusuf.  You said they took the money,

       7   not me, right?

       8   A.  No, they didn't take it for themselves.  Money spending

       9   for the Islamic National Front work.

      10   Q.  And you said that you forgot to get a receipt from them,

      11   that's why you couldn't show that they took the money?

      12   A.  It's clear you know we spend the money for the work and I

      13   went to Bashihar, he runs the group at that time and I went to

      14   Ahmed Muli Aman.  I tell them the money we spend it for the

      15   office.  I buy car for Abdel Munim Gabir for the war, we buy

      16   house furniture, and a lot of people try to bring the work for

      17   Musada Sinna group, from Narin group, from Muslim brother, so

      18   I tell them this money I spent it for the work.

      19   Q.  Well, then what about the three people, didn't they come

      20   and say, yes, he gave, we got the money, and it was for Sudan?

      21   A.  Well, every time I went over there.  He tell me, we going

      22   to give the loan from Khartoum bank and I got letter from

      23   Ahmed Alima, Dr. Isman the manager of Khartoum bank and in the

      24   letter he tell me, he do great job and if he give him a loan.

      25   That's great.

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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  So you did a great job but nobody believed you?

       2   A.  No, they believe me, but somebody tell them I give Abu al

       3   Masry money for the book against Tayyib.  And at that time he

       4   got his own group, is he got his own group it's fight between

       5   NIF by themselves.

       6   Q.  Now, besides this problem with the money from al Sadani

       7   there was also the loan money that you owed, isn't that right?

       8   A.  Yes.  That's why we want to cover that loan because the

       9   money for the NIF it's come from the bank.

      10   Q.  In other words, based on what you say everybody else has

      11   caused you problems that may put in jail for owing money to

      12   the bank, is that what you're saying?

      13   A.  Yeah, they believe I give Abu Kar El Masry, money because

      14   he make tape and they think or somebody I think tell them I

      15   give the money to Abu Kar.

      16   Q.  And so none of this was your fault.  It was everybody

      17   else's fault, right?

      18   A.  Anyway, you know that Islamic National Front is a lot of

      19   companies they owned by people, but they do the government

      20   job.  It's like umbrella companies, and is a reason that time

      21   is the same, we, myself I own the company, but I run for

      22   Islamic National Front business.

      23   Q.  Now, who, which companies were being audited to determine

      24   how much you took out, was that the Bin Laden companies or is

      25   that the NIF companies?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Could you repeat your question?

       2   Q.  Which companies were being audited to determine how much

       3   you stole?  Was that the Bin Laden companies or the NIF

       4   companies?

       5   A.  No, we talk now about NIF company.

       6   Q.  They had accountants audit your books, right?

       7   A.  I don't understand what you say.

       8   Q.  They had accountants examine your records from the

       9   company, didn't they?

      10            (Witness consults interpreter)

      11   A.  For Sarine, Sarine company?

      12   Q.  Yes.

      13   A.  No, I run the business, I manage at that time for Sarine.

      14   I do the bank.  I do everything, me and I hire people with me.

      15   Q.  Which are the companies that audited the books were

      16   examined?  Was that the Bin Laden companies?

      17   A.  I don't understand what you say.

      18            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      19   A.  I don't know what you mean.  We have a lot of companies in

      20   Bin Laden.

      21   Q.  Somebody sent a representative from the lawyer's office to

      22   examine the records to determine whether you stole money from

      23   the companies?

      24   A.  I think you talk about $110,000.

      25   Q.  So they had, so Bin Laden sent his attorney's office to

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   audit the books at Laden International, is that right?

       2   A.  I don't remember that what I know Faraki asked me the same

       3   time and he say somebody come and tell him you stole the money

       4   and I tell him, yes, I got commission.

       5   Q.  Didn't they audit the books at the company that you were

       6   working for on two separate occasions?

       7   A.  I don't remember any lawyer or any attorney talk to me

       8   about that.

       9   Q.  Didn't you tell the government on October 21, 1996 that

      10   the legal office headed by Hasim abu Baka Al Jali did an

      11   investigation jointly by Bin Laden and the NIF and they

      12   concluded that you stole money?

      13   A.  What I remember Ajani he asked me about because one of the

      14   companies he bought Sudan the salt farm he want me to bring

      15   the license, because it's my name.

      16   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, I'm asking you what you said to the

      17   government back in 1996.  Didn't you tell them that there was

      18   a joint audit of the books of the company that you ran in

      19   1995?

      20   A.  I don't remember that.

      21   Q.  Did you tell them that after that --

      22   A.  I don't remember.

      23   Q.  -- there was a further audit for a month long?

      24   A.  I don't remember, but what I remember when Ajani he talk

      25   to me.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  You don't remember, Mr. Al Fadl --

       2            THE COURT:  Let him finish.

       3            MR. SCHMIDT:  I thought he was finished, Judge.

       4   A.  What I remember Ajani talk to me about the salt farm in

       5   Sudan, it's under my name and he ask we need to switch the

       6   name to other person.

       7   Q.  Well, we'll do it this way.  I'm going to show you and ask

       8   then the interpreter to translate the area that I boxed on

       9   350145, 41, 47.

      10            May I approach the witness, your Honor?

      11            THE COURT:  Yes.

      12            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      13            (Pause)

      14   A.  What was the question?  Repeat the question.  This is the

      15   same I tell you, I know Mahif is one of our group sit down

      16   with me and they say the houses, the farm and we want to

      17   switch it to somebody else that in your name.

      18   Q.  That isn't the question, Mr. Al Fadl.  There were two

      19   separate long audits of the businesses that you were running,

      20   isn't that correct?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  And both of those audits resulted in the determination

      23   that you were a thief, isn't that correct?

      24   A.  Yes, I remember in '95 they sat down with me and they tell

      25   me, he tell me we have proved you stole money and we need all

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   the property under your name to switch it to somebody else,

       2   and we need that money back, and I remember that in '95.

       3   Q.  And the only reason that you finally admitted to Mr. Bin

       4   Laden and Mr. Al Tayyib was because two times they had audits

       5   and it was absolutely certain you couldn't deny it any more,

       6   you were caught, wasn't that correct?

       7   A.  Yes, he tell me somebody tell us you took commission from

       8   the sugar and oil.

       9   Q.  And that was the last time when you had this

      10   conversation -- withdrawn.

      11            The last time that you actually saw Mr. Bin Laden was

      12   in the summer of 1995, isn't that right?

      13   A.  I don't remember the month but in '95.

      14   Q.  It was the summertime of 1995?

      15   A.  I really don't remember but I remember in '95.

      16   Q.  Well, let's see if I can find where you told the

      17   government -- didn't you tell the government back in 1996 that

      18   the last time that you saw Mr. Bin Laden was the summer of

      19   1995?

      20   A.  I remember in '95 but I really don't remember the month or

      21   I remember if I say summer or winter.

      22   Q.  Well, the winter meaning in January or February?

      23   A.  No, the summer in Sudan between March until September and

      24   the winter start from November until January.  We have long

      25   summer in Sudan, six months.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  So what is your best guess as to when you saw him last,

       2   what month?

       3   A.  Probably between May and September or May and October.

       4   Q.  And you didn't leave until February of '95, is that

       5   correct?

       6   A.  Yes, correct.

       7   Q.  You were still going about your business having financial

       8   problems with al Sadani, isn't that right?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  And it wasn't until February that you left?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  And the reason that you left was because you were afraid

      13   of the NIF?

      14   A.  And Bin Laden, also.

      15   Q.  You hadn't seen Bin Laden for months?

      16   A.  But I see the people groups, the membership.

      17   Q.  But nobody bothered you, the NIF was your concern, wasn't

      18   it?

      19            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, --

      20   A.  Try my best to be back to the group and I remember I think

      21   it was Bin Laden talk to him and he say we want to know why

      22   you do that.  We not care about money, but we care about you

      23   the first one that join the group.

      24   Q.  When was that?

      25   A.  I really don't remember the month.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   Q.  Was that after the summer of 1995?

       2   A.  I don't remember really, but I remember that the last

       3   conversation between me and him and I went back to Mahib and I

       4   went back to Abu Rida al Suni and they tell me the best thing

       5   for you if you bring all the money.

       6   Q.  I'm going to show you what's marked 3501-45, page 2.  I

       7   ask you to read the area that has been circled.

       8            May I approach, your Honor?

       9            (Document handed to witness.  Witness consults with

      10   interpreter)

      11            (Pause)

      12   Q.  Does that refresh your recollection as to the last time --

      13   withdrawn.  Does that refresh your recollection?

      14   A.  Yes, summer '95.

      15   Q.  Last time that you saw Mr. Bin Laden was the summer of

      16   1995?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And the time that you left Sudan was in February of 1996,

      19   right?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  Now, you came to the United States and you didn't follow

      22   the visa to go to school, did you?

      23   A.  Could you repeat the question?

      24   Q.  You went to the United States under false pretenses,

      25   didn't you?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   A.  Well, I went to the embassy and gave me I20.  That's why.

       2   Q.  For a student and you never went to school?

       3   A.  No, you're right.

       4            THE COURT:  Are you --

       5            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'm finishing up, your Honor.

       6            THE COURT:  I know you're finishing up, but don't

       7   finish up by being repetitious.

       8            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'm trying not to.

       9   Q.  You took an oath to your first wife and then you violated

      10   that, didn't you?

      11   A.  I don't know what you mean by oath with wife?

      12   Q.  You married your first wife and without permission you

      13   went and married somebody in the United States, isn't that

      14   right?

      15   A.  What I tell you in our religion some scholars they say you

      16   marry the second one, you don't have to tell the first one.

      17   Some scholars say you should tell the first one you going

      18   to marry.  If she want to save you she can, if not, she got

      19   divorce.

      20   Q.  Second one advised you and you got married illegally?

      21   A.  No.

      22   Q.  In the United States?

      23   A.  No, we went to the church and all haka comes and we make

      24   the --

      25   Q.  But the church doesn't allow people to marry a second wife

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   in the United States?

       2   A.  I still don't know.  I'm teenager, I don't know the law,

       3   and I don't know.

       4   Q.  You came and you took an oath to al Qaeda, didn't you?

       5   A.  Yes, bayat.

       6   Q.  And a number of things in there like not stealing you

       7   violated that oath, didn't you?

       8   A.  Yes, I stole some money.

       9   Q.  You went to the bank and promised to pay money back and

      10   you didn't?

      11   A.  This is Islamic National Front their problem, not my

      12   problem, because they say you going to bring the loan from

      13   Khartoum bank and they never did.  And that's why the problem

      14   with them.

      15   Q.  That wasn't your fault, right?

      16   A.  Well, I went to the manager of that Islamic University and

      17   he runs the business for Islamic National Front.  He give me

      18   letter to Dr. Masorji, manager Khartoum bank, and all they say

      19   we going to give you loan, we going to give you loan and when

      20   somebody tell me Abu al Masry.

      21            THE COURT:  This question is only going to lead to

      22   repetition.

      23   Q.  My question, your Honor, did not call for that whole

      24   answer.  I didn't want to interrupt him.

      25            Mr. Al Fadl, is there any oath that you've ever taken

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                   Al Fadl - cross

       1   in your life that you have kept?

       2   A.  Yes.

       3   Q.  What's that?

       4   A.  Muslim.  I do my prayer, and I believe God, I believe my

       5   prophet Mohammed.

       6   Q.  You select the oaths to your God that --

       7   A.  No.

       8   Q.  -- you decide to follow, isn't that right?

       9   A.  No.  When I join the al Qaeda a lot of al Qaeda group I

      10   it's not right job, some because it's good job, some because

      11   it's not good job.  When we are in Pakistan we have only some

      12   book, al Qaeda group we read, but when we went to Sudan it's

      13   more chance for me and other members they read other books,

      14   they enjoy other scholars, they go to its mosque and that's

      15   the difference when we reach Sudan, it's a lot of difference.

      16   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

      17   Q.  Thank you, Mr. Al Fadl.

      18            THE WITNESS:  You welcome.

      19            THE COURT:  Redirect.

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, Judge.

      21   REDIRECT EXAMINATION

      22   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

      23   Q.  If I may approach the witness with 3501-42.

      24            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I have a moment, your Honor, so I

      25   can get up to speed?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1            (Pause)

       2   Q.  May I approach with 3501-41 which I believe has been

       3   received in evidence as defense exhibit A, and I also approach

       4   with what has been marked as 3501-22.

       5            Now, sir, if you look at 3501-41 the copy of defense

       6   exhibit A, that's a document that you looked at the other day

       7   and was offered in evidence by Mr. Baugh.  Do you recall

       8   seeing that document?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  And is that document in Arabic or English?

      11   A.  It's in Arabic.

      12   Q.  Did you look at 3501-42, the other document, one page.

      13            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      14            THE INTERPRETER:  All of it?

      15   Q.  All of it, the one page is that an English translation of

      16   the document that is marked 3501-41.

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  Did you sign the document 3501-42?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  And was that in Europe?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, subject to redaction

      23   which are to be discussed with counsel at a later point, I

      24   just would offer 3501-42 as a translation of defense exhibit

      25   A.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1            THE COURT:  Subject to the?

       2            MR. BAUGH:  Subject to the redaction, yes.

       3            THE COURT:  Received subject to redaction, and that

       4   is received as Government Exhibit?

       5            MR. FITZGERALD:  Government Exhibit 2.

       6            (Government's Exhibit 2 received in evidence)

       7   Q.  And, sir, if I could just ask to be displayed on the

       8   screen for the witness and counsel only, Government Exhibit 1.

       9            Mr. Al Fadl, if you can look at the TV screen to your

      10   left I'm going to page through Government Exhibit 1 and my

      11   only question to you is if you recognize what the document is.

      12            Can you see the document from where you are?

      13            I'm handing you a hard copy of Government Exhibit 1.

      14   If you look through the document and tell us whether or not

      15   you recognize what that document is?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  Do you know what that document is?

      18   A.  I believe this is the second agreement.

      19   Q.  Is that the agreement you testified that you signed once

      20   you came to America?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer that

      23   exhibit again subject to redaction which we can discuss later.

      24            THE COURT:  Received without objection subject to

      25   redaction.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1            (Government's Exhibit 1 received in evidence)

       2   Q.  The other day Mr. Baugh asked you a question about whether

       3   or not you were aware that the Witness Protection Program

       4   expended approximately $794,000 on you and your family.  My

       5   question to you is, whether or not you are aware the medical

       6   expenses, the medical component of those expenses constituted

       7   approximately $308,000?

       8            MR. BAUGH:  Objection to the form.

       9            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Are you aware, sir, that just the expense for documents

      12   for you and your family totaled approximately $132,000?

      13   A.  Yes, if you --

      14            MR. BAUGH:  Objection.

      15            MR. FITZGERALD:  You have to wait for the Judge.

      16   There was an objection:

      17            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      18   Q.  Yes, sir.  Please don't tell us what the medical expenses

      19   were for.  Is that for your family's medical expenses?

      20   A.  Because for my --

      21   Q.  Let's not get into the medical procedure.

      22   A.  Okay.

      23   Q.  Now, sir, we talked, you were asked questions about a

      24   fatwa, and you talked about whether the scholars agree or

      25   disagree and my question to you is this.  If the scholars

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1   within al Qaeda cannot agree among each other, if scholars in

       2   al Qaeda disagree, do they issue a fatwa?

       3            MR. HERMAN:  Judge, objection.  I assume he's going

       4   to answer based on his knowledge.

       5            THE COURT:  His knowledge and his understanding, yes.

       6   Q.  To your understanding, if the al Qaeda, if al Qaeda

       7   scholars, the scholars within al Qaeda disagree on whether

       8   something is Islamically correct or not, does al Qaeda issue a

       9   fatwa?

      10   A.  No, if they don't, if you're not agreed, they not issue

      11   fatwa.

      12   Q.  And if a fatwa is issued as an al Qaeda member, do you

      13   understand that the al Qaeda scholars agree on what has been

      14   issued?

      15   A.  Yes, they agree.

      16   Q.  Now, you were asked questions by Mr. Schmidt about

      17   confidentiality and you stated in response to questions that

      18   you were not told the reason that you were going to Hungary to

      19   meet with a person.  Do you remember those questions?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  And you did testify that you were told that the reason for

      22   going to Zagreb had to do with business, correct?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  So your understanding was that the business in Hungary was

      25   secret?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection, your Honor.  This is a

       2   leading question.

       3            THE COURT:  Yes, sustained to the form of the

       4   question.

       5   Q.  Let me ask you this, sir.  What were you told about the

       6   person whom you were supposed to met in Hungary?

       7   A.  What I told from Abu Sarudi they told me when you go to

       8   the guest house, and somebody in our group he going to meet

       9   you over there, and follow what he tell you.

      10   Q.  So the person you were to meet was a Lebanese guy within

      11   your group, correct?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Do you know whether or not that Lebanese person was Wadih

      14   El Hage?

      15   A.  I really don't know.

      16   Q.  When was it that you went to Budapest?

      17   A.  What, the time?

      18   Q.  Yes.

      19   A.  I think during '92, maybe September '92.

      20   Q.  And do you know as you sit here today whether or not Wadih

      21   El Hage was traveling in Eastern Europe during September and

      22   the fall of 1992?

      23   A.  I really don't remember.

      24            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection to the form of the question,

      25   September 1992.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1            MR. FITZGERALD:  Okay.

       2   Q.  As you sit here today do you know whether or not Wadih El

       3   Hage was traveling in even Europe in September of 1992?

       4   A.  I don't know.  I really don't know.

       5   Q.  Now, you were asked questions by Mr. Schmidt as to whether

       6   or not you told the United States government hundreds of names

       7   during the course of three months of being interviewed and

       8   whether or not you did not mention the name of Wadih El Hage

       9   until October 23, 1997.

      10            Do you recall those questions?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  Do you recall stating that you were not sure whether you

      13   had mentioned the name Wadih before that, do you recall that?

      14            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.  That is not his testimony,

      15   your Honor.

      16            THE COURT:  Rephrase the question.

      17   Q.  Do you know whether or not you mentioned the name Wadia

      18   prior to the date that Mr. Schmidt gave you October 23, 1997?

      19   A.  I know I mentioned the name but I don't know when.  I

      20   don't know what year and what month.

      21   Q.  Let me approach you with what has been marked as 3501-45,

      22   page 146.

      23            MR. SCHMIDT:  What number is that?

      24            MR. FITZGERALD:  3501-45, page 146.

      25            I ask you if that refreshes your recollection that

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4
                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1   you told the United States government about Wadia in October

       2   1996?

       3            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       4            (Pause)

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  Now, you recall earlier Mr. Schmidt asked you questions

       7   about a discussion within al Qaeda as to whether or not you

       8   have an attack in Saudi Arabia that would kill civilians?  Do

       9   you recall those questions?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  He asked you whether or not a person from el jihad had

      12   propose the attack, do you recall that question?

      13   A.  Could she help me?

      14   Q.  I'll speak slower.

      15            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  Who was the person within al jihad who proposed the attack

      18   in Saudi Arabia?

      19   A.  The guy he told me about he want to do something in Saudi

      20   Arabia about Muslims.

      21   Q.  And was Abu haf el Masry part of al Qaeda?

      22   A.  Yes, he's a second guy in committee.

      23   Q.  So he was both a member of al jihad and al Qaeda?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  And you stated earlier in response to a question to Mr.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1   Schmidt that you were first told that if you joined al Qaeda

       2   you could only belong to one group.

       3            Can you explain to the jury how Abu haf el Masry

       4   could belong to both al jihad and al Qaeda?

       5   A.  Because the jihad group, the work for al Qaeda agenda and

       6   for jihad agenda, but always al Qaeda agenda first.

       7   Q.  If a person belongs to al jihad it's not considered a

       8   violation of a promise to only work for al Qaeda?

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection, your Honor, leading

      10   question.

      11            THE COURT:  I know you're trying to watch the clock

      12   and I think it's causing you to ask leading questions.

      13            MR. FITZGERALD:  Okay.

      14   Q.  Could a person belong to both al jihad and al Qaeda?

      15   A.  If what I say you can't join another group, the other

      16   group they don't work for al Qaeda either, but like we have

      17   groups they work and they made bayat to al Qaeda agenda and

      18   jihad group, one of those groups.

      19   Q.  Now, you were asked questions earlier by Mr. Schmidt as to

      20   whether or not the first time you ever told the government

      21   that Bin Laden wanted to retaliate against the United States

      22   for the arrest of Sheik Abu Rahman was today, do you recall

      23   that conversation?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Let me show you 3501-8, page 4 and I'll direct your

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1   attention to the last sentence, actually the last three

       2   sentences of the top paragraph on page 4 of 3501-8, and ask

       3   you if that reflect your recollection -- well, refreshes your

       4   recollection that you stated that as early as November, 1997?

       5            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  Now, you've testified that approximately 13 to 20 people

       8   left al Qaeda when there was not quick retaliation against the

       9   United States for the arrest of Sheik Abdul Rahman?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Can you tell the jury how many people left al Qaeda when

      12   Bin Laden stated that America was the head of the snake and

      13   the main enemy?

      14            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.

      15   A.  I see none.

      16            THE COURT:  I didn't hear the answer.

      17   A.  Nobody.

      18   Q.  Now, Mr. Schmidt asked you earlier today whether or not

      19   there was an awful lot of business going on in the Sudan when

      20   Bin Laden was there.

      21            Do you recall that question?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Was there an awful lot of terrorism going on in the Sudan

      24   when Bin Laden was there?

      25            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.

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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       2   Q.  Was there an awful lot of work that you considered

       3   military going on in the Sudan in 1992, 1993, and 1994?

       4   A.  You talked about al Qaeda group?

       5   Q.  Yes.

       6   A.  Yes.

       7   Q.  You were moving weapons?

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  Explosives?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Training?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Trying to buy uranium?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Trying to get chemical weapons?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  During that time, during the entire time that you were in

      18   the Sudan during the entire time from 1991, '92, '93, and '94,

      19   did anyone in al Qaeda ever tell you that you could not

      20   discuss al Qaeda business military work in front of Wadia El

      21   Hage?

      22   A.  No.

      23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you.  Nothing further.

      24            MR. SCHMIDT:  Just a few questions.

      25            THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Anything further?

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                              al Fadl - recross/Herman

       1            MR. BAUGH:  I have one question or two.

       2            THE COURT:  Nothing on behalf of Odeh.

       3            MR. HERMAN:  Briefly.

       4            THE COURT:  Yes.  My format on recross is to begin by

       5   making a reference to the testimony that has been elicited

       6   since the last time you examined the witness.

       7   RECROSS-EXAMINATION

       8   BY MR. HERMAN:

       9   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, you've been asked a lot of questions about

      10   fatwas and whether a fatwa can be challenged if it's not

      11   Islamically correct.  All right.  Let me just ask you this

      12   question.

      13            Did you say in a sworn affidavit that al Qaeda

      14   organization, and this is 3501-40, an affidavit which if you

      15   want to look at it I'm going to tell you that you signed it,

      16   so if you want look at it to refresh your recollection --

      17            THE COURT:  Finish your question.  Finish your

      18   question.

      19   Q.  Here's the question.

      20            Did you say the al Qaeda organization has members who

      21   made bayat swore to the emir the prince of the organization

      22   Usama Bin Laden?  That sounds like something you would say and

      23   swear to?

      24   A.  I didn't understand.

      25            (Witness consults with interpreter)

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                              al Fadl - recross/Herman

       1            THE COURT:  Can we stay a few minutes later and

       2   complete this witness?  Slow down.  It's my fault.  I rushed

       3   you all.  Slow down.

       4            (Pause)

       5            Please restate your question.

       6   Q.  Here's the question, and if you need the interpreter, the

       7   al Qaeda organization had members who made bayat, that is

       8   sworn allegiance to the emir prince of the organization, Usama

       9   Bin Laden?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  You understand that?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  You said that?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Did you say this?  By taking this oath the member obliges

      16   himself to follow those orders of Usama Bin Laden as long as

      17   they did not violate Islamic law?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  Did you say that, yes or no?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21            MR. HERMAN:  That's all I have.  Thank you, sir.

      22            THE COURT:  Mr. Cohn.

      23   RECROSS EXAMINATION

      24            MR. COHN:

      25   Q.  On redirect Mr. Fitzgerald asked you whether or not a

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                               Al Fadl - recross/Cohn

       1   fatwa would be issued unless all the scholars agreed.  Do you

       2   remember that question and your answer to that?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And you said no, it would not.  Is that right, that all

       5   the scholars had to agree?

       6   A.  In al Qaeda group?

       7   Q.  In al Qaeda.

       8   A.  Yes.

       9   Q.  And that was generally known, was it not, that no fatwa

      10   would be issued unless all the scholars agreed that it was

      11   Islamically correct, is that right?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  And that would be the power of the fatwa that everybody

      14   would know that the scholars, that the Islamic scholars all

      15   agreed that that was Islamically correct under the law.  Is

      16   that right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  And, therefore, there would be no reason to argue with

      19   that if you were somebody who actually heard the fatwa, right?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21   Q.  But to obey the fatwa you of course had to hear what the

      22   fatwa was, somebody had to communicate it to you, didn't they?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  Thank you.

      25            MR. STERN:  We have no questions.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1            THE COURT:  No cross on behalf of K.K. Mohammed.  Mr.

       2   Schmidt.

       3   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

       4   Q.  What was the name of islamic scholars who were in al

       5   Qaeda?

       6   A.  Scholars name?

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

       8            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       9            MR. FITZGERALD:  Scope.

      10            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'm sorry?

      11            THE COURT:  I sustained the objection as being beyond

      12   the scope of the redirect.

      13   Q.  You said that all of the scholars need to agree before a

      14   fatwa was issued, isn't that your testimony?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  Well, who are all of these scholars that have to agree?

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Same objection.

      18            THE COURT:  I'll allow it.

      19   Q.  You may answer.

      20   A.  Okay.  What I remember now I remember Abu Ibrahim Irati,

      21   Abu farajimni, first Egyptian, Ditar Abu Mahis, Abu Mohamed

      22   Said Sharif, and Abu Mat Egyptian, and Bin Laden.

      23   Q.  Bin Laden?

      24   A.  Yes, with Bin Laden.

      25   Q.  He's a religious scholar for the fatwa?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1   A.  No, he's not scholar, but he know a lot in jihad.  He very

       2   focused and he know a lot about jihad.

       3   Q.  And what books or articles have the people that you said

       4   are scholars published?

       5   A.  We --

       6            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

       7            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       8   Q.  In fact, there was no fatwa committee in al Qaeda, was

       9   there?

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  Same objection.

      11            THE COURT:  I didn't hear.

      12   Q.  There was no fatwa committee in al Qaeda, was there?

      13            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, scope.

      14            THE COURT:  I'll allow that.

      15   A.  Yes.  We have fatwa committee in al Qaeda.  That's why I

      16   mentioned those scholars to you and we have book, we have

      17   books farida kalma, just focused about what jihad means, the

      18   fardh al ein and fardhal khafiya, and this is wrote by

      19   Egyptian guy, his name is Ibin Salam.

      20   Q.  Was he there?

      21   A.  No, we use his book, because his book is focused on.

      22   Q.  There was a not a fatwa committee, it was a religious

      23   committee?

      24   A.  The religious committee and the fatwa the same because the

      25   religious committee they doing the fatwa job.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1   Q.  The religious committee, not the fatwa committee?

       2   A.  No, the fatwa, the most job about fatwa.

       3   Q.  Now, you told us that on in November of 1997 you had a

       4   conversation about -- withdrawn.

       5            The first time that you mentioned anything about

       6   retaliation for the arrest of Sheik Rahman was in November of

       7   1997, is that correct?

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, scope.

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  That was --

      10            THE COURT:  That's a reference to 35018.

      11            MR. SCHMIDT:  That is correct.

      12   Q.  Is that right?

      13   A.  When the people retaliation?

      14   Q.  No, the first discussion was in November of 1997.  Is that

      15   right?

      16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, objection.

      17            THE COURT:  The question wasn't what the first

      18   discussion was.  Overruled.  You may answer that.

      19   Q.  No?  Was that no?

      20   A.  After the people --

      21   Q.  The first time that you spoke to an American about those

      22   conversations was in November of 1997?

      23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      24   Q.  Is that your testimony?

      25            THE COURT:  Overruled.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1   A.  I really don't remember the date or the year.

       2   Q.  Well, you had about forty different conversations with

       3   American agents before you ever mentioned anything about the

       4   retaliation, isn't that right?

       5   A.  It could be, yes.  They ask the question.  Whatever they

       6   ask me, I answer.

       7   Q.  The training that the government referred to that went on

       8   in 1992, 1993 and 1994 in the Sudan while you were there was

       9   refreshing?

      10   A.  Yes.  You're right.

      11   Q.  No new person was trained, right?

      12   A.  Could you say again?

      13   Q.  No new people were trained, is that right?

      14   A.  The people they train only for light weapons.

      15   Q.  Now, when you, there was you saw type of training in

      16   Damizine when you visited those two times, right?

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

      18            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      19            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, he talked about how much

      20   training there was and I want to go into what that consists

      21   of.  I think I have a right to do that on recross.

      22            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      23            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'm overruled?

      24            THE COURT:  Yes.

      25   Q.  No chemical weapons, you never saw any type of chemical

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1   weapons anywhere in the Sudan even in the Civil War in the

       2   south of Sudan, isn't that right?

       3   A.  What you mean about chemical weapons?

       4   Q.  You never saw any kind of chemical weapons, did you?

       5   A.  Well, what I hear from the --

       6   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, I asked you if you ever saw --

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

       8   Q.  -- any chemical weapons.  I'm not asking for rumors.

       9            THE COURT:  Sustain.  Sustained.  I have a list of

      10   questions that was asked on redirect.  Begin your question by

      11   saying, I refer to the following question asked you on

      12   redirect, and I ask the following.

      13   Q.  I refer to your answer that there were chemical weapons

      14   were going on in 1992, 1993 and 1994 asked by the prosecutor

      15   earlier today.  You said you never saw any chemical weapons in

      16   the Sudan, is that correct, sir?

      17   A.  No.

      18   Q.  Yes or no?

      19   A.  No, that's not correct.

      20   Q.  You saw chemical weapons?

      21   A.  Yes, we have in Damazine house --

      22   Q.  That's what you saw?

      23   A.  Yes, because the people --

      24   Q.  That's what you call chemical weapons, explosives?

      25   A.  Yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1            MR. SCHMIDT:  Okay.  I have no further questions.

       2   May I have a moment, your Honor?

       3            (Pause)

       4            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'm sorry.  I apologize.

       5   Q.  Now, the government refreshed your recollection on

       6   redirect with a reference to a person name Wadia that was

       7   given on October 21, 1996, by you to government agents.

       8            Do you recall being asked that question on redirect?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Now, the person that you described as Wadia you called an

      11   unidentified Lebanese individual whose name, first name may be

      12   Wadia, isn't that right?

      13            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

      14            THE COURT:  Restate the question.

      15   Q.  The reference to Wadia was the result of you saying that

      16   there were three people who were dressed in suits that went to

      17   the US embassy one day.  Is that correct?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19   Q.  And that people were making fun of them because they were

      20   dressed in western attire as opposed to the normal Islamic

      21   attire that people wore?

      22   A.  Correct.

      23   Q.  And the person that you, people that you said went there

      24   was Usama Algani, right?  That's not Mr. El Hage, right?

      25   A.  No, say, what I remember I say Abu.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I'm trying to limit this

       2   and I'm asking fairly simple questions.

       3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to the comment.

       4            MR. SCHMIDT:  And if he just answers my question --

       5            MR. FITZGERALD:  Move to strike.

       6            THE COURT:  Ask the question.  Ask it so it can be

       7   answered yes or no.  I'll require the witness to answer yes or

       8   no.

       9   Q.  Now, one word Usama Algani, is that correct?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  And this Usama Algani is not Mr. El Hage, is that correct?

      12   A.  What I remember he is abu --

      13            THE COURT:  Now ask him about the other two.

      14            MR. SCHMIDT:  I didn't get a yes out of him, your

      15   Honor.  I asked him is Usama Algani Wadih El Hage and he

      16   hasn't answered that question.

      17   A.  Well, I say no.

      18   Q.  Thank you.

      19   A.  But I tell you --

      20            THE COURT:  No, that's all.  Just answer yes or no.

      21            THE WITNESS:  Okay, okay.

      22   Q.  One other person was Abu Kadisha al Iraqi, is that

      23   correct?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  And the third person you described to the government

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1   agents was an unidentified Lebanese individual apparently also

       2   a US citizen whose first real name may be Wadia.  Isn't that

       3   how you described that third person?

       4            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

       5   A.  Yes, I tell them that if could be Wadia.

       6            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I asked the question --

       7            THE COURT:  Yes is the answer.  Everything after yes

       8   is stricken.

       9   Q.  When they asked you more about this Wadia that you

      10   mentioned for the first time you told them that this Wadia's

      11   name was Abu Ahmed?

      12   A.  Yes, because --

      13   Q.  Is that what you said, Abu Ahmed?

      14   A.  Yes, we use different names.  That's what I told them I

      15   told them he go by Ahmed and he got another name and other

      16   name.

      17   Q.  Isn't it a fact that Mr. El Hage's only name, any Abu name

      18   that you used is Abu Abdullah is father of Abdullah, isn't

      19   that correct, Mr. Al Fadl, yes or no?

      20   A.  I know, yes, I know him also by Abdullah Ginani and when

      21   he asked me come in my mind, the same.

      22   Q.  His oldest son is Abu Abdullah.  You said that here in

      23   court, isn't that right?

      24   A.  I don't know about the son, but in our group you use

      25   nickname even if you don't have kids, like when they give me

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1   at work I don't have kids even, and still father of.

       2   Q.  You have never mentioned anywhere here other than claiming

       3   that the war name is Abu Ahmed, isn't that right?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  You also said that this Abu Ahmed lived in the bachelors

       6   quarters, isn't that right?

       7   A.  What you mean bachelor?

       8   Q.  You said bachelors, single men quarters.  Didn't you tell

       9   the government that?

      10   A.  I really don't remember.  I don't remember.

      11   Q.  Let's look back at this.  May I approach the witness?

      12            THE COURT:  Yes.

      13            (Document handed to witness)

      14            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      15   A.  Yes, I remember that.

      16   Q.  May I have that back, please.  You're saying that this

      17   event occurred in the end of 1993, is that correct?

      18   A.  Yes, I remember they asked me and I tell them that time he

      19   came to the guest house as a single.

      20   Q.  Is it your testimony that at the end of 1993 the Wadia or

      21   Abu Ahmed that you're talking about lived in bachelor quarters

      22   in Khartoum, yes or no, Mr. Al Fadl?

      23   A.  No, this is not, it's hard to say yes or no.  What I mean

      24   to them, he came to the guest house single, but I don't mean

      25   he have wife or no --

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1   Q.  You said --

       2   A.  -- because I didn't --

       3   Q.  You said that he lived in bachelor quarters, isn't that

       4   correct?

       5   A.  For me when say --

       6   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, did you say that to the agents?

       7   A.  Yes, I tell them I saw him in his house, single.

       8   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, did you say that yes or no?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Did you say this this man was about five foot eight, large

      11   chest, almost blondish hair, over forty-five?

      12   A.  I really don't remember that.

      13            (Witness handed document)

      14            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      15   A.  I really don't remember if I say that or no.

      16   Q.  So you may have said he was a blondish man about

      17   forty-five years old?

      18   A.  I really don't remember.

      19   Q.  Did you say that you didn't know whether he was in

      20   Afghanistan?

      21   A.  No, he know he's Afghanistan.

      22   Q.  Did you say to the government on that day when you

      23   described this Wadia that you didn't know if this Wadia was

      24   ever in Afghanistan?

      25   A.  I really don't remember.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1   Q.  Take a look at that bottom again.  See if that refresh

       2   your recollection?

       3            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       4   A.  I really don't remember.

       5   Q.  Whoever this Wadia was, this is the only information that

       6   you had about him until the government told you about, asked

       7   you about Wadia El Hage a year later, isn't that right.

       8   A.  They asked me a lot of questions about him and he give

       9   them answers.

      10   Q.  This is the only thing that you ever mentioned during

      11   those thirty-five or so meetings with US government

      12   representatives in 1996, isn't that right?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14            MR. SCHMIDT:  No further questions.

      15   REDIRECT EXAMINATION

      16   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

      17   Q.  First, Mr. Al Fadl, would you tell us what bachelor

      18   quarters are?  What is that?

      19   A.  It's a guest house for people when they came for visit and

      20   they go back.

      21   Q.  Is that the name of a building?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  Do they check you to see if you have a wife or children

      24   when you go into the building?

      25   A.  No, because you, maybe you live in other country and you

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1   leave your wife and family over there but you come for short

       2   visit and you go back.

       3   Q.  Mr. Schmidt just asked you if the only name that Mr. El

       4   Hage was known by was Abu Abdullah.  Wasn't he known by the

       5   name Abu Sabbur?

       6            MR. SCHMIDT:  The only Abu name that I said --

       7   Q.  Did he have an --

       8   A.  Like what I said before, I known by Abu Sabbur.

       9   Q.  Let me show you 3501-45, page 146 which is the page that

      10   Mr. Schmidt just asked you questions about.  Mr. Schmidt asked

      11   if that was the only information that you told the US

      12   government.  Is it a fact that you told the government on that

      13   date that this person referred to as unidentified was

      14   Lebanese, was a United States citizen, was in the Sudan, was

      15   name Wadia, he worked with Abu Al Yemi, at Laden

      16   International, he visited US and Russia on unknown business,

      17   and he had a good relationship with Usama Bin Laden.  Is that

      18   correct?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  How many people in the Sudan at that time were US citizens

      21   from Lebanon named Wadia?

      22            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.  There is no way of knowing.

      23            THE COURT:  I sustain the objection to that question.

      24   Q.  And, finally, Mr. Schmidt asked you whether or not you did

      25   not tell the government in the first however many meetings

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1   there were about a planned retaliation against United States

       2   for the arrest of Sheik Omr Abdul Rahman?

       3            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection, your Honor.  His testimony

       4   was that there wasn't a plan, not that there was a plan.

       5            THE COURT:  Restate your question.

       6   Q.  Mr. Schmidt asked you questions on when you first talked

       7   to the government about a discussion concerning whether to

       8   retaliate against the United States for the arrest of Sheik

       9   Omar Abdel Rahman.  Do you recall that question.

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  Let me show you 3501-45, pages 1 through 9, and I ask you

      12   to look in particular at pages 6 and 9 and ask you if that

      13   refreshes your recollection as to whether or not in the third

      14   meeting with the government you laid out four different

      15   options that were being discussed as to how to retaliate

      16   against the United States for the arrest of Sheik Abdul

      17   Rahman.

      18            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      19            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is asking what is the

      20   question?

      21   Q.  The question is, did that refresh your recollection

      22   whether or not in the third meeting with representatives of

      23   the United States government you described particular plans

      24   that had been discussed for retaliation against the United

      25   States because of the arrest of Sheik Abdul Rahman.  It's a

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Al Fadl - redirect

       1   yes or no question.  Do not tell us what the plans were.

       2            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       3            THE INTERPRETER:  Which paragraphs?

       4            MR. FITZGERALD:  The ones that are underlined, look

       5   at page 6 and page 9 in blue ink.

       6            (Witness consults with interpreter)

       7   A.  Yes.

       8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Nothing further.

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Very briefly, your Honor.

      10   RECROSS-EXAMINATION

      11   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

      12   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, this group of Sheik Rahman group had their

      13   own residences, separate from --

      14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, scope.

      15            THE COURT:  I didn't hear.

      16   Q.  This group was --

      17            THE COURT:  Which group are we talking about?

      18   Q.  The Sheik Rahman group was physically separated from the

      19   residences of other al Qaeda members, weren't they?

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, scope.

      21            THE COURT:  Yes, sustained.

      22   Q.  You weren't at any of these meetings that supposedly

      23   discussions took place about targeting American interests,

      24   isn't that right?

      25            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, scope.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1            THE COURT:  Sustained.  The only question that was

       2   asked was the date on which he spoke to the US agents about

       3   this matter.

       4            MR. SCHMIDT:  He brought up the knowledge of other

       5   ones, your Honor, and it's not because it's personal

       6   knowledge.  It's what somebody told him.  That's the only

       7   question.

       8            THE COURT:  Then ask one very specific question and

       9   I'll allow it.

      10   Q.  This information about the plans by the Sheik Rahman group

      11   was told to you second hand, isn't that correct?

      12            (Witness consults with interpreter)

      13   A.  Well, I remember we were in the guest house when they were

      14   talk about that.

      15   Q.  Mr. Al Fadl, were you present when these Sheik Rahman

      16   people had the discussion or did somebody tell you about it a

      17   discussion later on?

      18   A.  No, I remember we have talking when I was in the guest

      19   house.

      20   Q.  Did somebody else tell you about those discussions?

      21   A.  We talk inside the guest house about that.

      22            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

      23            THE COURT:  Yes.  Sustained.  Anything else?

      24            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes.

      25   Q.  You seem to have remembered that --

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       2   Q.  In the end of 1993 how long was Mr. El Hage living in

       3   Khartoum?

       4            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, scope.

       5            THE COURT:  Sustained.

       6            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, he said the bachelor

       7   quarters.

       8            THE COURT:  Sustained.  Let's not get into an

       9   argument.

      10            MR. SCHMIDT:  He said the bachelor quarters were

      11   there for a short period of time.

      12            I'll rephrase the question.

      13   Q.  You said that the bachelor quarters were for single people

      14   there for a short period of time visiting Khartoum.  Is that

      15   correct?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  How long had Mr. El Hage been in Khartoum by the end of

      18   1993?

      19   A.  What I remember I saw him in the guest house but later on

      20   I know he leave with somebody and he live in Rial City.

      21   Q.  Let me ask the interpreter to translate this.

      22            How long was Mr. El Hage living in Khartoum by the

      23   end of 1993?  Please interpret it.

      24   A.  I don't know how long.  I didn't count that.

      25   Q.  Didn't you say that you trained him in 1992?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                              Al Fadl - recross/Schmidt

       1   A.  Yes.

       2            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, scope.

       3            MR. SCHMIDT:  I have no other questions.

       4            THE COURT:  Anything further of the witness?

       5            MR. SCHMIDT:  No, your Honor.

       6            THE COURT:  Thank you for your patience, ladies and

       7   gentlemen.  We'll resume tomorrow at 10 a.m.

       8            (Continued on next page)

       9

      10

      11

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1            (Jury not present)

       2            THE COURT:  The next order of business is what?

       3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would suggest that the

       4   next order of business will be I believe the government will

       5   offer in as CNN videotape from 1997.  We'll call an agent who

       6   will testify as to the authentication of certain items seized

       7   in the search of Mr. El Hage's apartment.

       8            THE COURT:  Now, with respect to the tape you plan to

       9   play the tape?

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  Mr. Karas can address that.

      11            MR. KARAS:  Yes, Judge, we're planning on playing the

      12   whole tape.

      13            THE COURT:  Any objection to the tape?

      14            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes.  Yes, your Honor.

      15            THE COURT:  And what is the nature of the objection?

      16            MR. SCHMIDT:  Needlessly gory.

      17            MR. KARAS:  Just the interview.

      18            MR. SCHMIDT:  I withdraw my objection.

      19            THE COURT:  No objection to the interview being

      20   played.  All right.  Then what happens?

      21            MR. FITZGERALD:  An agent who will testify as to the

      22   authentication of items seized in the 1997 search of Mr. El

      23   Hage's residence.  Again Mr. Karas is familiar with any issues

      24   that may be coming up on that.

      25            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we submitted a letter to the

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   Court regarding and in limine motion.  I don't know if there

       2   is any response to that.

       3            MR. WILFORD:  There is, your Honor.  Most

       4   respectfully, the government submitted a motion in limine by

       5   letter to the Court and has provided counsel with 3500

       6   material.  That 3500 material is severely redacted so what the

       7   government in essence did was make a motion granting the

       8   redacted material in advance without giving counsel an

       9   opportunity to review the material and make a decision on its

      10   own whether or not that particular material would be relevant

      11   to any areas of cross-examination which the counsel would like

      12   to go into.

      13            The government would have an opportunity to object or

      14   present to the Court particular areas of that testimony which

      15   they think are beyond where they're going, but for the

      16   government in advance to redact whole hog the entire witness'

      17   prior statements, I think didn't give us a fair opportunity.

      18            THE COURT:  Let me refresh my recollection and see if

      19   my recollection is correct.  The government took the position

      20   that the agent was being called for the sole purpose of

      21   authenticating various exhibits and that the government wanted

      22   a ruling that that was the sole limited purpose of the witness

      23   who was not subject to cross-examination with respect to any

      24   other matters unrelated to the authentication of the exhibit.

      25   Is that the letter we're referring to?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           12K1BIN4

       1            MR. KARAS:  Yes, Judge, the letter mentioned that and

       2   it specified four areas, and we like to exclude

       3   cross-examination.  Just so everybody is clear, the redactions

       4   do not reflect those concerns.  The redactions in the 3500

       5   material are only of things contained in the written document

       6   that are otherwise unrelated at all to the search, and that is

       7   separate and apart from the four issues we had raised in our

       8   in limine letter.

       9            MR. WILFORD:  Your Honor, there is no way for counsel

      10   to know whether or not those issues are relevant.  That's a

      11   decision that the government is making.  They may in fact be

      12   prior statements.

      13            THE COURT:  The government is making a representation

      14   to the Court that the matters redacted had no relevance to

      15   what the subject matter of the witness' testimony is going to

      16   be.  I will ask the government to submit to me by 9 a.m.

      17   tomorrow an unredacted copy so that I can look at that myself.

      18            MR. KARAS:  We have it right now.

      19            MR. DRATEL:  The only other issue with respect to the

      20   four areas that the government wanted to, the government in

      21   limine motion four areas with respect to of certain agencies

      22   which we don't have a problem with that.  We also don't have a

      23   problem with in terms of cross-examination as with respect to

      24   the legality of the Kenyan search not being an issue for the

      25   jury, but with respect with respect to the foreign

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   intelligence aspect of the search we have agreed I think with

       2   the government to reserve that issue for stipulation if in

       3   fact it become relevant.

       4            The fourth issue at the Kenyan warrant and the

       5   validity of warrant, and we would reserve the right to

       6   cross-examination not with respect to the legality of the

       7   search, but with respect to his credibility with respect to

       8   the issue of that warrant.  That is part of the 3500 material.

       9            THE COURT:  I don't understand.  This witness is

      10   going to testify on X day a warrant was executed and these are

      11   the documents seized as a foundation for their being offered.

      12            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, I'm not saying that we're

      13   going to cross him on the actual search.  I'm saying we want

      14   to reserve the right to use the material for credibility

      15   purposes.

      16            THE COURT:  Use what material for credibility

      17   purposes?

      18            MR. DRATEL:  The Kenyan warrant called for stolen

      19   property.  Suppose he had knowledge of that and knew that was

      20   false and he used the warrant anyway, it has nothing to do

      21   with the legality of the search.  It's the government's

      22   position that is set forth in the pretrial procedures with the

      23   Court was that they weren't relying on the Kenyan warrant, so

      24   that's why the Kenyan warrant has nothing to with the legality

      25   of the search, but does go to the agent's credibility should

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   we wish to attack it.

       2            THE COURT:  There is nothing in the world that can't

       3   sought to be justified as a basis for cross under the rubric

       4   of credibility, but assume for a moment the Kenyan warrant was

       5   a ruse.  How does that affect the credibility of the agent's

       6   testimony that documents 1, 2, 3 and 4 were seized in

       7   execution of that warrant?

       8            MR. DRATEL:  The other issue with respect to his

       9   description of the search, your Honor, I don't know what his

      10   testimony is going to be.  That's why I'd like to reserve

      11   that.

      12            THE COURT:  I'll revisit the question after his

      13   direct which I take it is all that you're asking that I do,

      14   but I think you know that you'll have a very heavy burden to

      15   establish for me that issues with respect to the legality of

      16   the Kenya warrant as a matter of Kenyan law are relevant to

      17   the credibility of the agent who is being called solely for

      18   purposes of identifying the results of the search.

      19            MR. DRATEL:  This agent has said in an affidavit he

      20   was presented with that warrant and our position is that he

      21   knew that that warrant was based on, that warrant was not,

      22   there was no stolen property, should not be granted and was

      23   not designed to get stolen property in the search.

      24            THE COURT:  And you believe that that circumstance

      25   should permit him to be cross-examined with respect to his

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   knowledge of the bona fides of the warrant so that the jury

       2   may consider the credibility of his testimony that the things

       3   being proffered are the things which resulted from that

       4   search.

       5            MR. DRATEL:  Not just the things being proffered,

       6   your Honor.  It's also his execution of the search itself.

       7            THE COURT:  I will permit you to revisit the issue

       8   prior to cross-examination.

       9            MR. KARAS:  Just so counsel is aware, we don't even

      10   intend on our direct to elicit that the Kenyans have for being

      11   on the premises for the reason that we don't think that the

      12   legality of the Kenya participation is relevant to the factual

      13   question that's presented by the introduction of the evidence.

      14   So we're not even going to get into that issue at all.

      15            THE COURT:  I'll revisit the issue after I've heard

      16   the direct.  We're only dealing with a permissible scope of

      17   cross, and not whether defendant can call the witness as its

      18   own witness as part of the defense case should that somehow be

      19   relevant.  Mr. Schmidt?

      20            MR. SCHMIDT:  No, I'm just leaning forward, your

      21   Honor.

      22            MR. WILFORD:  Your Honor, there is --

      23            THE COURT:  Let me just explore a moment.  I think

      24   the first order of business today was that you were reserving

      25   some right for further material following the

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   cross-examination of the last witness?  Is that all moot now?

       2            MR. SCHMIDT:  No, it's not.  It's moot as to cross

       3   examination of this witness, but it is not moot as to

       4   production of documents, but we don't --

       5            THE COURT:  Would you let me have in writing what

       6   material you feel you are now entitled to have in light of the

       7   examination of this witness?  Can I have that by Friday

       8   morning?

       9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, if I may, depending on the

      10   following witnesses it may or may not require that.  If I am

      11   going to require the production of documents it would be

      12   documents that I would offer in the defendant's case which is

      13   not ripe yet, but I ask that we wait.  I really do need that

      14   because I don't need to do that extra work.

      15            THE COURT:  All right.  I want to avoid the problem

      16   of having to recall this witness from wherever he is or

      17   wherever he is going in the near future.  Since you tell me

      18   that it relates to the defendant's case.

      19            MR. WILFORD:  Yes, your Honor.  May I bring up

      20   scheduling concerns for the Court's attention?

      21            THE COURT:  Yes.

      22            MR. WILFORD:  Can we speak to the Court out of

      23   public?

      24            THE COURT:  You want to speak to me privately?  Any

      25   objection?  You want a reporter?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1            MR. WILFORD:  No, it's not necessary.

       2            (Discussion off the record in the robing room)

       3            (In open court)

       4            THE COURT:  That matter related to scheduling

       5   sometime next week.  Is there any matter that requires the

       6   Court's attention prior to bringing in the jury tomorrow

       7   morning?

       8            MR. SCHMIDT:  There are still some discovery things

       9   that need to be resolved, some of which we're trying to

      10   resolve and some of them we think we may end up --

      11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, there are some other

      12   issues we're trying to resolve with the defense.  But we'll

      13   have that private squabble later.

      14            THE COURT:  All right.  Let's adjourn then till 9:45

      15   tomorrow.  I'll be here if we need anything further.

      16            (Adjourned to 9:45 a.m., Wednesday, January 21, 2001)

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1

       2                        INDEX OF EXAMINATION

       3   Witness                    D      X      RD     RX

       4   JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL 888  889    1031    1042

       5                                          1055    1058

       6                        GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS

       7   Exhibit No.                                     Received

       8    2 ..........................................1033

       9    1 ..........................................1034

      10

      11

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300

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