19 March 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.

This is the transcript of Day 19 of the trial, 19 March 2001.

See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm

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       1   UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
           SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
       2   ------------------------------x

       3   UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

       4              v.                           S(7) 98 Cr. 1023

       5   USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

       6                  Defendants.

       7   ------------------------------x

       8
                                                   New York, N.Y.
       9                                           March 19, 2001
                                                   10:00 a.m.
      10

      11

      12   Before:

      13                       HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

      14                                           District Judge

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                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1                            APPEARANCES

       2   MARY JO WHITE
                United States Attorney for the
       3        Southern District of New York
           BY:  PATRICK FITZGERALD
       4        KENNETH KARAS
                PAUL BUTLER
       5        Assistant United States Attorneys

       6
           ANTHONY L. RICCO
       7   EDWARD D. WILFORD
           CARL J. HERMAN
       8   SANDRA A. BABCOCK
                Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
       9
           FREDRICK H. COHN
      10   DAVID P. BAUGH
           LAURA GASIOROWSKI
      11        Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali

      12   DAVID STERN
           DAVID RUHNKE
      13        Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

      14
           SAM A. SCHMIDT
      15   JOSHUA DRATEL
           KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
      16        Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage

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                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1            (Pages 2698-2706 sealed)

       2            (In open court; jury present)

       3            THE COURT:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.  I am

       4   sorry to say that our luck has run out and I am afraid we have

       5   lost juror 1254, the third alternate, where you see the empty

       6   seat.  The marshals received a telephone call at 3:00 a.m.

       7   this morning, indicating that she had been taken to the

       8   hospital.  I don't know exactly why.  Perhaps some of you may

       9   know.  In any event, she will not be with us for the balance

      10   of the trial, and I am sure we all wish her a speedy recovery.

      11            One other inquiry since we last raised the issue.

      12   Has anybody heard anything or watched or read anything with

      13   respect to this trial or with respect to anybody related to

      14   this trial?

      15            Very well.  I understand that the next order of

      16   business is a stipulation.

      17            MR. RUHNKE:  Yes, your Honor, two oral stipulations,

      18   very briefly.

      19            If called as witnesses, special agents of the FBI

      20   would testify that they interviewed Abdallah Hamisi in Dar es

      21   Salaam in the fall of 1998 and, at that time, Mr. Hamisi told

      22   the agents that he had known Khalfan Mohamed since 1988.

      23            2.  If called as witnesses, special agents of the FBI

      24   would testify that they interviewed Abuwadih Ahmed Salum in

      25   Dar es Salaam in the fall of 1998, and at that time Mr. Salum

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   told the agents that he had seen Khalfan Mohamed working as a

       2   conductor on a town bus.

       3            Those are the stipulations.

       4            MR. FITZGERALD:  Judge, the government now calls

       5   Special Agent Nanette Schumaker, S-C-H-U-M-A-K-E-R.

       6    NANETTE SCHUMAKER,

       7        called as a witness by the government,

       8        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

       9            (Continued on next page)

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                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   DIRECT EXAMINATION

       2   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

       3   Q.  Can you tell the jury how you are employed.

       4   A.  I am a special agent with the FBI.

       5   Q.  For how long have you been an FBI agent?

       6   A.  Nine years.

       7   Q.  During that time have you worked on an ERT or Evidence

       8   Response Team?

       9   A.  Yes, sir, I have.

      10   Q.  For how long have you served on an Evidence Response Team?

      11   A.  Five years.

      12   Q.  Let me direct your attention to October of 1998.  Did

      13   there come a time when you were deployed to Dar es Salaam,

      14   Tanzania?

      15   A.  Yes.  In early October 1998 I was actually deployed to

      16   Nairobi, Kenya, and then I was asked on the 20th of October to

      17   travel the next day to Dar es Salaam, Tanzania.

      18   Q.  Once you traveled to Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, what was

      19   your assignment?

      20   A.  My assignment was actually to be the team leader of the

      21   search of 213 Ilala.

      22   Q.  Can you tell the jury when the search of 213 Ilala began?

      23   A.  We started approximately on the morning of October 22,

      24   1998.

      25   Q.  Can you tell the jury when the search of 213 Allah

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   concluded.

       2   A.  It concluded on the afternoon of October 24.

       3   Q.  Did the search cover three days?

       4   A.  Yes, sir, it covered three full days.

       5   Q.  Can you tell the jury what procedure you followed when you

       6   arrived at the scene of 213 Ilala.

       7   A.  The first procedure when we got there was to what we call

       8   render the location safe, and that involved sending two FBI

       9   bomb techs as well as, OED explosive ordnance specialists from

      10   Tanzania to go into the compound and make sure that it was

      11   safe for everyone else to enter.

      12   Q.  Did they do that that day?

      13   A.  Yes, sir, they did.

      14   Q.  Did they find anything?

      15   A.  They found a detonator, a very small item on the window

      16   sill of the west side of the compound, house actually.

      17   Q.  What happened after this protective sweep of the premises

      18   at 213 Ilala?

      19   A.  After the sweep, Miss Frances Rivera, our lead

      20   photographer, and myself started doing photographs of the

      21   outside of the compound, not inside, but just outside the

      22   compound.

      23   Q.  What did do you after you photographed the outside of the

      24   compound?

      25   A.  After photographing the outside of the compound, we went

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   inside with Kendrick Williams, the lead bomb tech, to recover

       2   the bomb detonator.  He actually recovered it but we

       3   photographed it prior to recovery.

       4   Q.  After recovering the detonator, what happened next?

       5   A.  They rendered it fully safe.  Then myself and Agent Rivera

       6   went in to begin swabbing inside the house.

       7   Q.  How much of the day did you spend swabbing the inside of

       8   the house?

       9   A.  Starting with putting the Tyvex suits on and everything

      10   else, it took maybe an hour, hour and a half to complete the

      11   whole process.

      12   Q.  What did you do after that?

      13   A.  After that, it was clear to go inside the house and

      14   Miss Rivera and I photographed the interior of the house,

      15   while outside Mr. Hathaway, Agent Hathaway, who is the only

      16   other ERT trained individual on the search, started locating

      17   and tagging items of potential evidence within the compound.

      18   Q.  Can you describe to the jury what you would do, what you

      19   mean by tagging items of potential evidence.

      20   A.  We have little yellow tags that we place on the ground by

      21   something that we think might be evidentiary, and we can go

      22   back later, and we number each item, we photograph it, and

      23   then we lift it and put it either in a plastic bag or paper

      24   bag.

      25   Q.  Let me approach you with what have been premarked

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   Government's Exhibits 1351A through J and ask you to take a

       2   look at these items and see if you recognize what they are.

       3   A.  Yes.  1351A is a photograph of the outside of the

       4   compound, I believe on the outside.

       5   Q.  If you could stop for a moment.  They are not admitted in

       6   evidence.  If you could look at all of them and tell us

       7   whether or not they are fair and accurate pictures of the

       8   things you saw that day when you did the search of 213 Ilala.

       9   A.  Yes, sir, they are all photographs that I was a part of.

      10            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I offer 1351A through J.

      11            THE COURT:  Received.

      12            (Government's Exhibits 1351A through 1351J received

      13   in evidence)

      14   Q.  If we could display 1351A to the jury, could you tell us

      15   what is depicted there.

      16   A.  That is a picture of the outside of the compound, on the

      17   outside.

      18   Q.  If we could move to 1351B.

      19   A.  Yes.  That is the east side, outside the perimeter of the

      20   compound.

      21   Q.  1351C.

      22   A.  That's actually inside the compound.  It's a picture of

      23   the outside of the house on the south side.

      24   Q.  Moving to 1351D.

      25   A.  It's behind the house, but within the compound there is a

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   row of I think six rooms and this reflects those rooms.

       2   Q.  1351E.

       3   A.  Again, that's within the compound but it is the west side

       4   of the house.

       5   Q.  And 1351F.

       6   A.  Still the west side of the house, from a different angle

       7   within the compound.

       8   Q.  Do you notice whether any of the yellow-tagged items are

       9   within the picture as you see it now?

      10   A.  Not this one, no, sir.

      11   Q.  Let me show you 1351G.  What is that?

      12   A.  This is within the compound.  It is the west side of the

      13   house and the little yellow tags are what we would have put

      14   down to mark items that needed to be retrieved later.

      15   Q.  1351H?

      16   A.  I believe this is the north side of the compound behind

      17   the house.  I believe it is what we called the pit.

      18   Q.  We will come back to the pit in a moment.

      19   A.  OK.

      20   Q.  Do you see an item in the lower left corner of that

      21   picture?

      22   A.  A couple items.  There is a broom or whisk, and there is a

      23   long metal piece.

      24   Q.  Moving to 1351I, can you tell us what that is.

      25   A.  Yes, sir, it is the west side of the house, a little

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   closer view of the window sill, and I believe this is where

       2   Agent Williams found the detonator.

       3   Q.  Moving to 1351J.

       4   A.  This is a closeup of the detonator on the window sill

       5   before Agent Williams retrieved it.

       6   Q.  Let me approach you with what has been premarked for

       7   identification as Government's Exhibit 1352.  I ask you to

       8   take a look at Government's Exhibit 1352 and tell us if you

       9   recognize what that is?

      10   A.  Yes, sir, I do.

      11   Q.  What is that?

      12   A.  It is a sketch of the entire compound, including the house

      13   and the back six rooms.

      14   Q.  Is that a fair and accurate sketch of what the compound

      15   looked like on the day that you were searching it?

      16   A.  Yes, sir, it is.

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  I would offer 1352, your Honor.

      18            THE COURT:  Received.

      19            (Government's Exhibit 1352 received in evidence)

      20   Q.  If we could display 1352 for the jury and counsel.  If you

      21   could, using the sketch, describe how the compound is laid

      22   out.

      23   A.  As you can see, the primary entrance to enter and exit the

      24   compound was on the east side, the singular little door there.

      25   On the outside over to the left, where it says paved surface,

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   there were two large doors that were locked.  We could not get

       2   through the lock and we didn't have a key.  In the back was

       3   the garbage pit with the trees, and then the back six rooms.

       4   Q.  During the time that you conducted the search, was there

       5   anyone present besides American and Tanzanian officials?

       6   A.  Yes, sir.  According to Tanzanian law, any time a search

       7   is conducted by the Tanzanian law enforcement authorities, a

       8   witness, a civilian witness must be present, and because we

       9   were working under Tanzanian law we followed this.

      10   Q.  How many witnesses were actually present in the course of

      11   the three days?

      12   A.  There were actually two.  One was called the village

      13   elder, someone appointed or elected by the neighborhood there

      14   surrounding 213 Ilala.

      15   Q.  Let me approach you with what has been marked 1351K and

      16   1351L.  Look at those items and tell us whether or not they

      17   are fair and accurate photographs of things you saw on the

      18   days that you conducted the search.

      19   A.  Yes, sir, they are.

      20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer 1351K and

      21   L.

      22            THE COURT:  Yes, received.

      23            (Government's Exhibits 1351K and 1351L received in

      24   evidence)

      25   Q.  Would you tell the jury, after displaying to the jury

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   1351K, what is depicted in that photograph.

       2   A.  As you can see, it is a singular sink with a small shelf

       3   to the left that was found in room I, noted on the sketch.

       4   Q.  And you mentioned room 5.  Would that be one of the rooms

       5   outside the building?

       6   A.  I am sorry, I as in India.  It was inside the main house.

       7   Q.  Can you tell us what is in 1351L.

       8   A.  You can see it is just a close-up view of the same sink

       9   and you have a better view of the shelf.

      10   Q.  Can you tell us what you did on the second day of your

      11   search.

      12   A.  The second day of search we continued searching the

      13   outside of the compound, which again would have been Agent

      14   D.J. Hathaway and a couple other agents.  Inside the house,

      15   myself and Agent Rivera started dusting for latent

      16   fingerprints and, towards the end of the day, photographing

      17   those fingerprints.  Outside the compound, it was on the

      18   second day that Agent Williams discovered what we know as the

      19   garbage pit.

      20   Q.  Can you explain what the garbage pit was?

      21   A.  It was an area on the north side of the compound that

      22   looked like it had been disturbed.  It wasn't flat and

      23   undisturbed like everything else.  I think it is the custom in

      24   Tanzania to bury garbage.  So we deemed it prudent to dig that

      25   out and see what items of significance we could gather.  That

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   was started on the second day.

       2   Q.  Did you gather any items inside the house on the second

       3   day?

       4   A.  Yes, we found several items of evidence that we

       5   photographed, identified, and lifted.

       6   Q.  Do you recall any particular ones that were taken that

       7   day?

       8   A.  Inside the house the main things were two or three brooms

       9   and then the items from 1351L, a couple razors, a glass

      10   bottle.  I believe that was primarily it.

      11   Q.  What happened on the third day of the search?

      12   A.  The third day of the search we were wrapping up inside the

      13   house, finishing up the photographs and actually lifting the

      14   latent fingerprints, which took a good part of the morning.

      15   Outside the house we continued searching the pit.  We actually

      16   sifted the mud.  Agent Hathaway and a couple other agents

      17   started searching the back six rooms.  They conducted

      18   swabbings of the rooms, dusted for fingerprints, then

      19   photographed and lifted the fingerprints.

      20   Q.  In total, how many items did you recover during the

      21   three-day search?

      22   A.  It was a total of 172 items of evidence, plus the one

      23   detonator, for a total of 173.

      24   Q.  Let me approach you with a subset of those items and I

      25   will show you what is marked for identification as 1355,

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   1357A, B and C, 1358, and 1359.  Actually, if you could tell

       2   us first what 1355 is.

       3   A.  1355 is the detonator that we found on the window sill.

       4            (Continued on next page)

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                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   Q.  Let me approach you with 1357A, B and C.  Can you tell the

       2   jury what these items are?

       3   A.  1357A, B and C are all three brooms or whisks that we

       4   recovered from inside the main house.

       5   Q.  Looking at Government Exhibit 1358 could you tell the jury

       6   what that is?

       7   A.  1358 is the gold razor that we found on the sink in room I

       8   within the house.

       9   Q.  1359, can you tell the jury what that is?

      10   A.  1359 is a bottle.  I'm not sure what the substance is, but

      11   we found it on the shelving to the left of the sink in Room I.

      12   Q.  Then I will approach with you 1363, 1370, 1371, 1373

      13   through 1378.  Starting with 1363, I think is the first item I

      14   gave you, can you tell us what that item is?

      15   A.  It looks like a concrete bag.

      16   Q.  Was that recovered in the search as well?

      17   A.  Yes, sir, it was.

      18   Q.  And as to these items did you prepare and work with others

      19   to prepare and review an evidence recovery log that would list

      20   all of the items that were recovered during the three days?

      21   A.  Yes, sir, throughout the search every item is logged on

      22   the recovery log as to where the item was found, and who

      23   recovered it, and there was on that log.

      24   Q.  Prior to coming to court today did you look at the various

      25   exhibits and verify that they were on the log?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   A.  Yes, sir, I did.

       2   Q.  And do you remember the exhibits that contained your

       3   initials as well?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  Can you tell us what 1370 is?

       6   A.  It looks like a Portland cement bag that we marked as an

       7   item of evidence.

       8   Q.  Will you look at 1371.

       9   A.  1371 is a rag.

      10   Q.  Will you look at 1373 through 1375, those three items

      11   next?

      12   A.  Yes, sir, 1373 is a newspaper.  1374 is a brown twine or

      13   string.  1375 is a grouping of wires, assorted sizes and

      14   shapes.  And 1378 looks like a vacuum sweeper.

      15   Q.  Will you check the number.  Is that 1378 or 77?

      16   A.  I'm sorry that was 77, excuse me.  1378 is a small piece

      17   of aluminum foil.

      18   Q.  Were all those items recovered during the course of the

      19   search at 213 Ilala?

      20   A.  Yes, sir, they were.

      21   Q.  Let me approach you with 1376.  I ask you to take a look

      22   at that.

      23   A.  Yes, sir.  This is a large piece of metal that was

      24   recovered within our search.

      25   Q.  Let me approach you what has been marked as Government

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   Exhibits 1356, 1360, 1361 and 1362.  Can you tell us first

       2   what 1356 is?

       3   A.  1356 is a small piece of red wire that was found on the

       4   22nd of October just outside the house within the compound.

       5   Q.  1360?

       6   A.  1360 is a brown cardboard box which appears some kind of a

       7   letter or piece of paper with handwriting on it.

       8   Q.  At the time you recovered it, do you know if the letter

       9   was visible within the box?

      10   A.  No, sir, it was not.  All we could see was just the box.

      11   It was folded together.

      12   Q.  Next exhibit would be 1361.

      13   A.  1361 appears to be a small piece of aluminum foil that was

      14   recovered on the 23rd of October.

      15   Q.  And 1362?

      16   A.  1362 is a piece of newspaper with nonEnglish writing on

      17   it.

      18   Q.  Were all those items recovered over the course of the

      19   three days at 213 Ilala?

      20   A.  Yes, sir, they were.

      21   Q.  Let me approach you now with exhibits 1364 through 1369

      22   and then 1372.  Can you tell us first what 1364 is?

      23   A.  1364 is some kind of a round cardboard appearing object.

      24   Q.  And 1365?

      25   A.  1365 is the top of some kind of a lid, the lid to a can I

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   guess.

       2   Q.  1366?

       3   A.  1366 is a small piece of paper with some sort of writing

       4   on it or print.

       5   Q.  1367?

       6   A.  1367 appears to be a small piece of black tape.

       7   Q.  1368?

       8   A.  1368 is a series of Q tips.

       9   Q.  1369?

      10   A.  1369 is another piece of newspaper.

      11   Q.  1372 which is to your right?

      12   A.  1372 is a bag, silver colored bag, chemical bag I believe

      13   it says.

      14   Q.  And were items 1364 through 69 and 1372 additional items

      15   that were recovered during the search of 213 Ilala?

      16   A.  Yes, sir.

      17   Q.  And, finally, let me approach you with four exhibits, 1379

      18   through 1382.  Looking at 1379 can you tell us what that item

      19   is?

      20   A.  1379 is a series of glass vials with single Q tip swabs in

      21   them that would have been taken as swabbings.

      22   Q.  And 1380?

      23   A.  Again, it's a series of glass vials with single Q tip

      24   swabs that would represent swabbings taken from the residence.

      25   Q.  And 1381?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                                 Schumaker - direct

       1   A.  Again, it's a series of glass vials with single Q tip

       2   swabs.

       3   Q.  1382?

       4   A.  Again, it's a series of glass vials with single cotton

       5   balls.

       6   Q.  And with regard to 1379 and 1381 would those be control

       7   swabbings?

       8   A.  I would have to reflect to the log to see.  1379 and 1381?

       9   Q.  Yes.

      10   A.  Yes.  1379 appears to be the swabbing taken before

      11   swabbing inside of the house.

      12            MR. FITZGERALD:  Let the record reflect, your Honor,

      13   that the witness was shown the recovery log for that date and

      14   I shall put the 3500 number on the record at the break.

      15            THE COURT:  Very well.

      16   A.  I believe 1381 is the control swabbings from the back six

      17   rooms.

      18            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, at this time the

      19   government would offer the foregoing exhibits 1355, 1375A

      20   through C; 1358, 59, 63, 70, 71, 73 through 78; 1356, 60 to

      21   62, and 64 to 69, 72 and 1364, 1372 and 1379 through 1382.

      22            THE COURT:  Received.

      23            (Government's Exhibits 1355, 1375A through C; 1358,

      24   59, 63, 70, 71, 73 through 78; 1356, 60 to 62, and 64 to 69,

      25   72 and 1364, 1372 and 1379 through 1382 received in evidence)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                              Schumaker - cross/Ruhnke

       1            MR. FITZGERALD:  I have no further questions.

       2            THE COURT:  Mr. Ruhnke on behalf of defendant KK

       3   Mohamed.

       4   CROSS-EXAMINATION

       5   BY MR. RUHNKE:

       6   Q.  Good morning.

       7   A.  Good morning.

       8   Q.  You testified that you originally traveled to Kenya, is

       9   that correct?

      10   A.  Yes, sir, that's correct.

      11   Q.  When did you arrive in Nairobi?

      12   A.  It was on the 21st, sometime in the morning we took a

      13   flight from Nairobi.

      14   Q.  From Nairobi to Dar es Salaam?

      15   A.  Yes, sir.

      16   Q.  And that's a relatively short flight, hour and a half or

      17   so from Nairobi to Dar es Salaam?

      18   A.  No, not necessary less because we flew through another

      19   area.  It took awhile.  We didn't get into Dar es Salaam, it

      20   was after lunch I believe.

      21   Q.  While you were in Dar es Salaam, did you have occasion to

      22   visit the scene of the explosion?

      23   A.  I believe someone drove us by there, but that was the

      24   extent of it.

      25   Q.  And you conducted this search in Ilala, Dar es Salaam,

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2725
           13J1BIN2
                              Schumaker - cross/Ruhnke

       1   correct?

       2   A.  Yes, sir.

       3   Q.  The house number 113 in Ilala, can you describe the

       4   general location, what the surrounding neighborhood was like?

       5   A.  It would be pretty tough.  I mean I was only there for

       6   three days.  I couldn't really.  It's been a long time since I

       7   was there. I know there were houses surrounding it.

       8   Q.  And to get to the particular house, 213 Ilala, do you

       9   recall that you had to leave a relatively main road, paved

      10   road and follow it various roads, essentially dirt roads back

      11   and forth to get the actual location?

      12   A.  Yes, sir, I believe that's correct.

      13   Q.  Took five maybe ten minutes to get from the main road into

      14   the house itself?

      15   A.  Maybe five minutes, yes.

      16   Q.  Do you recall whether or not it was the rainy season when

      17   you were there?

      18   A.  No, it was extremely hot.

      19   Q.  And do you recall whether the roads were dry that you

      20   traveled on as you cut back to the house?

      21   A.  I don't recall.  They were dirt roads, but I don't recall.

      22   Oh, actually I take that back.  When we started the search on

      23   the 22nd I remember them saying that there had been torrential

      24   downpours the evening before.

      25   Q.  Do you remember that the name of the paved road that you

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                              Schumaker - cross/Ruhnke

       1   left to get back to the house at 213 Ilala was you Huru Road?

       2   A.  No, sir.  I really couldn't tell you any other names of

       3   the roads.

       4   Q.  Do you have happen to remember that the area in which the

       5   embassy was located is a section of Dar es Salam which is on

       6   the Indian Ocean called Oyster Bay?  Do you remember that?

       7   A.  I do recall that the embassy was by the Indian Ocean, yes.

       8   Q.  Did you ever have occasion to travel from the address or

       9   the house at 213 Ilala through Dar es Salaam to the embassy?

      10   A.  Not directly, no, because I was not staying at a hotel

      11   near the embassy.  I was staying somewhere else and again

      12   someone else was driving, so I was not paying attention to

      13   where I went.

      14   Q.  In terms of someone else driving, how would you describe

      15   the traffic conditions in downtown Dar es Salaam?

      16   A.  Not as bad as Manhattan.

      17   Q.  Chaotic come to mind?

      18   A.  I'm sorry?

      19   Q.  Sort of chaotic, lots of cars, lots of people on the

      20   street selling things?

      21   A.  I guess certain portions of it were, but, again, even not

      22   as much as maybe Nairobi.  I don't recall it being the traffic

      23   problem that Nairobi was.

      24            MR. RUHNKE:  Thank you, agent.  No more questions.

      25            THE COURT:  Anything further of this witness?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                                   Foster - direct

       1            MR. FITZGERALD:  No.

       2            THE COURT:  You may step down.

       3            (Witness excused)

       4            The government may call the next witness.

       5            MR. FITZGERALD:  Government calls Alisa Foster.

       6    ALISA MARTIN FOSTER,

       7        called as a witness by the government,

       8        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

       9   DIRECT EXAMINATION

      10   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

      11   Q.  Good morning, agent.

      12   A.  Good morning.

      13   Q.  Agent Foster, you testified here last week, correct?

      14   A.  Yes, I did.

      15   Q.  You testified about a search in Nairobi and a search in

      16   the Commos Islands?

      17   A.  Yes, sir.

      18   Q.  Did there come a time in the summer or fall of 1998 when

      19   you were deployed to Dar es Salaam Tanzania?

      20   A.  Yes, sir.

      21   Q.  Will you tell the jury when it was that you were deployed

      22   to Dar es Salaam?

      23   A.  In September 10th I was deployed to Dar es Salaam to

      24   search a white Suzuki truck.

      25   Q.  What day did you actually conduct the search?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                                   Foster - direct

       1   A.  September 11, the next day.

       2   Q.  Let me approach you with what has been premarked as

       3   Government Exhibits 1410A through D, and 1410F, 1410A through

       4   F.  Now, first looking at 1410A to D, are those fair and

       5   accurate pictures of the vehicle you searched that day?

       6   A.  Yes, sir.

       7            MR. FITZGERALD:  I would offer Government Exhibits

       8   1410A through D.

       9            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.

      10            THE COURT:  Received.

      11            (Government's Exhibits 1410A through D received in

      12   evidence)

      13            MR. FITZGERALD:  If we could display 141 A.

      14            Agent Foster, can you tell jury what that is?

      15   A.  I'm sorry?

      16   Q.  Can you tell the jury what that is a picture of?

      17   A.  That's a picture of the white Suzuki truck that I searched

      18   on September 11 in Dar es Salaam.

      19   Q.  Let me just flip through 1410B, C and D.

      20   A.  That's the side-view of the same truck.

      21   Q.  That's a view of the front inside of the white truck?

      22   A.  That is the back seat of the Suzuki.

      23   Q.  Now, did there come time when you did something as part of

      24   your search duties with regard to the white Suzuki truck?

      25   A.  Yes, sir.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                                   Foster - direct

       1   Q.  What did you do?

       2   A.  I swabbed the vehicle for explosive residue.

       3   Q.  Did you swab the inside or the outside?

       4   A.  The inside.  The dash, the turn signal between the seats

       5   the back seats, the lining of the roof interior.

       6   Q.  The places that you searched, are they depicted on 1410E

       7   and F?

       8   A.  Yes, sir.

       9            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer 1410E and

      10   F?

      11            THE COURT:  Received.

      12            (Government's Exhibits 1410E and F received in

      13   evidence)

      14            MR. FITZGERALD:  If we could display 1410E.

      15            Is this a blank grid for this search?

      16   A.  Yes, sir, it is.

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  If we can show 1410F.

      18            What's on 1410F?

      19   A.  That is, it's the same set but there are numbers where

      20   evidence swabbings and also other evidence was taken from the

      21   vehicle.

      22   Q.  Let me approach you with what has been premarked as 1411A

      23   and B.  If you could look at 1411A first.  Tell us if you

      24   recognize what the items of that are contained within 1411A?

      25   A.  Yes, I do.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                                   Foster - direct

       1   Q.  What are they?

       2   A.  These are swabbings taken from the Suzuki, different areas

       3   of the Suzuki.

       4   Q.  And prior to coming to court today have you had a chance

       5   to look at those swabbings and compare them with the evidence

       6   recovery log?

       7   A.  Yes, sir, I did.

       8   Q.  If you could look at 1411B.  Tell us if you recognize

       9   what's contained in that exhibit?

      10   A.  Yes, sir, I do.

      11   Q.  What's contained in 1411B?

      12   A.  The control swabs.

      13   Q.  Again, did you have a chance to look at those items in

      14   that exhibit before coming to court and compare them with the

      15   evidence recovery log?

      16   A.  Yes, sir, I did and they match.

      17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, the government would

      18   offer 1411A and B.

      19            THE COURT:  Received.

      20            (Government's Exhibits 1411A and B received in

      21   evidence)

      22            MR. FITZGERALD:  I have no further questions.

      23            MR. RUHNKE:  No questions.

      24            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

      25            (Witness excused)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN2
                                   Pierce - direct

       1            MR. FITZGERALD:  The government calls Special Agent

       2   Andrew Pierce.

       3    ANDREW PIERCE,

       4        called as a witness by the government,

       5        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:.

       6   DIRECT EXAMINATION

       7   BY MR. FITZGERALD:

       8   Q.  Mr. Pierce, can you tell the jury what you do for a

       9   living?

      10   A.  I'm a Special Agent with the FBI.

      11   Q.  Would you just keep your voice up a little bit, or just

      12   speak closer to the microphone.

      13            How long have you been an FBI agent?

      14   A.  A little over four years.

      15   Q.  To what office are you assigned?

      16   A.  The Washington field office.

      17   Q.  Did there come a time in September of 1998 when you were

      18   deployed to Dar es Salaam Tanzania?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Did there come a time when you participated in a search on

      21   September 11 of 1998?

      22   A.  Yes.

      23   Q.  What was the search that you participated in?

      24   A.  It was a search of a Suzuki Samurai.

      25   Q.  What role did you play in the search?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2732
           13J1BIN2
                                   Pierce - direct

       1   A.  I was the acquiring agent of all the evidence taken from

       2   the Samurai.

       3   Q.  Can you explain to the jury what role the acquiring agent

       4   plays?

       5   A.  It was my job to be at the scene of the search.  I was not

       6   physically removing the evidence, but there was an evidence

       7   response team there to do that.  They're trained to do that.

       8   I was to actually acquire the evidence that they removed from

       9   the vehicle and to see it was properly packaged and sealed.

      10   When I was satisfied that was done, I initialled it and then

      11   it entered the chain of custody from there.

      12   Q.  Let me approach you with a number of items, Government

      13   Exhibits 1412 through 1419, and then 1424.

      14            If you could look at what has been marked Government

      15   Exhibit 1412 first.  Tell us if you recognize it, and, if so,

      16   what it is?

      17   A.  I do recognize this.  It has my initials on the tape, and

      18   I have my writing, and it's metal parts from the passenger

      19   compartment of the Samurai.

      20   Q.  Looking next to Government Exhibit 1413, can you tell us

      21   if you recognize it, and, if so, what it is?

      22   A.  Yes, I recognize the brush.  It was taken from the

      23   Samurai, and my initials are also on the packaging.

      24   Q.  Look at Government Exhibit 1414.  Tell us if you recognize

      25   it, and, if so, what it is?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2733
           13J1BIN2
                                   Pierce - direct

       1   A.  I also recognize this.  It has my writing and my initials

       2   on the seal, and the fork and paper napkins from the Samurai,

       3   the back seat floor.

       4   Q.  Let me approach you with what's been marked as Government

       5   Exhibits 1415, 16 and 17.  Starting with Government Exhibit

       6   1415, would you look at that and tell us whether or not you

       7   recognize it, and, if so, what it is?

       8   A.  I do recognize this.  It has my initials on the seal, and

       9   these were rubber-like parts that were removed from under the

      10   driver's seat.

      11   Q.  The same question with regard to Government Exhibit 1416?

      12   A.  Yes, I do recognize this, also.  It's got my initials on

      13   here, and it's labled as a roll of window tint.  It's some

      14   dark plastic material.

      15   Q.  Do you know where that was found?

      16   A.  Pardon me?

      17   Q.  Was that in the Suzuki Samurai as well?

      18   A.  This was taken from the Suzuki, also.

      19   Q.  With regard to Government Exhibit 1417 in front of you,

      20   can you tell us if you recognize that, and, if so, what it is?

      21   A.  I also recognize this.  It has my initials on it and it is

      22   a window handle that was taken from the dashboard.  It was not

      23   actually on the window, on the door.  It was laying on the

      24   dashboard of the Suzuki.

      25   Q.  Let me approach you with 1418, 1419 and 1424.  Looking

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2734
           13J1BIN2
                                   Pierce - direct

       1   first at 1418, can you tell us if you recognize that, and, if

       2   so, what it is?

       3   A.  I do recognize this.  It has my initials on it, also.

       4   These were other items taken from the Samurai just an

       5   assortment of items that we just decided to package together.

       6   Q.  Government Exhibit 14149 which would be the orange bucket

       7   in front of you.  Would you look at that and see if you

       8   recognize it and tell us what is contained within that item?

       9   A.  I do recognize it.  It has my writing on it and my

      10   initials.  And it's and L-shaped rubber piece from behind the

      11   back seat and it was approximately three feet in length from

      12   the Samurai.

      13   Q.  Finally, 1424, which is to your right in front of you.  If

      14   you look at that and tell us if you recognize it, and, if so,

      15   what it is?

      16   A.  I do recognize this.  A set of keys taken from the

      17   Samurai.

      18            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

      19   Exhibits 1412 through 1419 and 1424.

      20            THE COURT:  Received.

      21            (Government's Exhibits 1412 through 1419 and 1424

      22   received in evidence)

      23            MR. FITZGERALD:  I have no further questions.

      24            MR. RUHNKE:  No questions, your Honor.

      25            THE COURT:  Mr. Wilford, on behalf of defendant Odeh.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2735
           13J1BIN2
                               Pierce - cross/Wilford

       1   CROSS-EXAMINATION

       2   BY MR. WILFORD:

       3   Q.  Good morning, agent.

       4   A.  Good morning.

       5   Q.  How you doing?

       6   A.  Very good thanks.

       7   Q.  As the acquiring agent you are, you stated, responsible

       8   for making sure that the items that come into your custody are

       9   properly packaged and sealed; is that correct?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11   Q.  And it's at that point that you said they enter the chain

      12   of custody, is that correct?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  Now, that's pursuant to an FBI protocol, isn't that

      15   correct?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  And it details, does it not, how items that are received

      18   by FBI agents must be cared for and controlled until such time

      19   as they are turned over to the lab, is that correct?

      20   A.  Yes.

      21            MR. WILFORD:  Thank you.  Nothing further.

      22            THE COURT:  Thank you, agent.  You may step down.

      23            (Witness excused)

      24            The government may call its next witness.

      25            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, the government calls Kathleen

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2736
           13J1BIN2
                                   Lundy - direct

       1   Lundy.

       2    KATHLEEN M. LUNDY,

       3        called as a witness by the government,

       4        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:.

       5   DIRECT EXAMINATION

       6   BY MR. KARAS:

       7   Q.  Good morning.

       8   A.  Good morning.

       9   Q.  Can you tell us how you're employed?

      10   A.  I'm employed in the FBI laboratory in Washington, D.C.

      11   I'm assigned to the elemental analysis group of the materials

      12   analysis unit in our laboratory where I'm a forensics

      13   examiner.

      14   Q.  And for how long have you been with the FBI laboratory?

      15   A.  It was 15 years at the end of this January.

      16   Q.  For how long have you been a qualified forensics examiner?

      17   A.  Approximately five and a half years.

      18   Q.  Can you tell the jury a little bit about your educational

      19   background?

      20   A.  I received a bachelor of science degree in metallurgy from

      21   the Pennsylvania State University in May of 1985.

      22   Q.  And have you received specific training in the area of

      23   forensics examination?

      24   A.  Yes, I have.  From the day that I began my employment with

      25   the FBI laboratory I was assigned to work for an examiner in

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2737
           13J1BIN2
                                   Lundy - direct

       1   what was called the elemental analysis unit, and I was taught

       2   the correct evidence handling procedures, how to prepare

       3   samples for analysis.  Eventually how to operate the

       4   instrumentation and review the results.

       5            All this was in the laboratory on a daily basis.  And

       6   I was also afforded the opportunity to attend training courses

       7   offered at our research facility at Quantico, and also by the

       8   universities in the area such as George Washington University,

       9   who has a graduate forensic science program, University of

      10   Maryland, Lehigh University, University of Virginia; also able

      11   to attend training courses offered by the manufacturers of the

      12   instruments that we use in the laboratory, and to attend

      13   analytical seminars in chemistry and the forensic science

      14   seminars to keep current with what's being done in the field

      15   of elemental analysis.

      16   Q.  Can you tell us what elemental analysis is?

      17   A.  What we do in our group is to use a variety of different

      18   instruments in order to analyze items of evidence that we

      19   receive to determine their elemental or chemical makeup.  Some

      20   of these are what we call qualitative analyses where we're

      21   just trying to determine which chemical elements make up the

      22   specimens and others of quantitative analyses where we

      23   actually determine which elements present in the specimens and

      24   the concentrations or amounts, and a great, most of the work

      25   that I do is to compare different items of evidence to

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2738
           13J1BIN2
                                   Lundy - direct

       1   determine if they have the same chemical makeup or elemental

       2   makeup, or if they're different, to try to determine whether

       3   or not these different pieces are from the same source or

       4   different sources.

       5   Q.  Can you give us an example or some examples of the types

       6   of items that you have analyzed over the years as part of your

       7   elemental analysis?

       8   A.  A lot of the work that I do is the analysis and comparison

       9   of bullets, shot pellets, lead and steel, bee bees, copper

      10   wire, steel plate, steel pipe, and in another case steel gas

      11   cylinder fragments.

      12   Q.  Are you familiar with the phrase ICP analysis?

      13   A.  Yes, very familiar.

      14   Q.  Can you tell us what ICP is?

      15   A.  ICP stands for inductive coupled plasma.  The full name of

      16   that type of instrumentation is inductive coupled plasma

      17   atomic spectroscopy, and it's the instrumental technique that

      18   we use to perform the chemical analyses of the bullets or

      19   pellets or the steel or copper wire in our laboratory.

      20   Q.  Now, you mentioned steel.  How many times have you been

      21   asked to conduct an elemental analysis on steel items?

      22   A.  Since I've become an examiner I've had seven different

      23   cases that I've been assigned to where a comparative steel

      24   analysis was requested.

      25   Q.  Can you tell us in your career as a forensic examiner how

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2739
           13J1BIN2
                                   Lundy - direct

       1   many times you have used the ICP method of elemental analysis

       2   on items or exhibits you've been asked to examine?

       3   A.  In the five and a half years or so that I've been an

       4   examiner I've been assigned to somewhere around 300 cases, and

       5   in just about all of these cases ICP was the analytical

       6   technique used and does involve thousands of analyses.

       7   Q.  Ms. Lundy, did there come a time you were asked to examine

       8   what were identified to you as steel cylinder fragments?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  In connection with the analysis that you performed did you

      11   visit the steel cylinder manufacturing facility?

      12   A.  Yes, I did.  I visited the Taylor Wharton Gas Equipment

      13   Division of the Harco Corporation.  It's located in

      14   Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

      15   Q.  Did you have an opportunity to speak to an industry expert

      16   regarding steel cylinders?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  Now, can you tell us exactly what it is that you were

      19   asked to determine as part of your analysis?

      20   A.  What I was asked to do was to look at and perform analyses

      21   on approximately two hundred fragments of steel gas cylinders

      22   in order to try to determine how many actual cylinders these

      23   different fragments might represent.

      24   Q.  And were these fragments that you understood had been

      25   recovered in the vicinity of the American Embassy in Dar es

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2740
           13J1BIN2
                                   Lundy - direct

       1   Salaam Tanzania?

       2   A.  Yes, that's correct.

       3   Q.  Can you tell us how it is you went about your analysis of

       4   these fragments.

       5   A.  At the same time that I started receiving the gas cylinder

       6   fragments I was also given three cylinders as examplars.

       7   There were two oxygen cylinders and one acetylene cylinder,

       8   and they were brought to me as being representative of the

       9   type of cylinders the fragments would have been from.

      10            So analysis was conducted on the exemplar cylinders

      11   to determine whether or not they were one piece cylinders,

      12   whether or not the seal was homogenous or compositionally the

      13   same throughout, and, also, if there were any attachments to

      14   the cylinders, what kind of seal those different attachments

      15   were made of so that when the fragments were analyzed I could

      16   interpret the results.

      17   Q.  I'm going to approach you with what has been marked in

      18   evidence as Government Exhibit 1132.

      19            Can you tell us if you recognize that item?

      20   A.  Yes, I do.  It's one of the fragments that I received in

      21   the laboratory.  It contains my initials in two different

      22   places on the fragment.

      23   Q.  When you obtained your examplars did you then use the ICP

      24   method of determining the elemental composition of the various

      25   fragments that you analyzed?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2741
           13J1BIN2
                                   Lundy - direct

       1   A.  Yes.  ICP was used as the technique to perform all the

       2   analyses in this case.

       3   Q.  And can you tell us what conclusion you reached about the

       4   number of cylinders that may have been originally in the

       5   vicinity of the Dar es Salaam embassy?

       6   A.  When the analysis was completed I determined that based on

       7   the results of the two hundred fragments that were analyzed

       8   that those fragments represented at least 20 different gas

       9   cylinders.

      10   Q.  Ms. Lundy, I'm going to approach you with what has been

      11   marked for identification as Government Exhibit 1145 and ask

      12   you to take a look at it.  Can you tell us what that is?

      13   A.  This is the summary of the ICP analysis results on the gas

      14   cylinder fragments.

      15   Q.  Is that a summary that you compared to your notes in the

      16   reports that you prepared in connection with your examination?

      17   A.  Yes, it is.

      18   Q.  Does that summary actually reflect the results of your

      19   analysis?

      20   A.  Yes, it does.

      21            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we offer Government Exhibit

      22   1145.

      23            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.

      24            THE COURT:  Received.

      25            (Government's Exhibit 1145 received in evidence)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2742
           13J1BIN2
                                   Lundy - direct

       1            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 1145, please.

       2   Q.  Now, if you could tell us, Ms. Lundy, what the Roman

       3   numerals on are on the left-hand column?

       4   A.  The numbers in the left-hand column is just a number that

       5   was assigned to a different composition group.  Each one of

       6   those groups was with a Q number indicates that the specimens

       7   associated with that have the same composition as each other,

       8   but between the different groups there are differences in the

       9   elemental composition of the seal.

      10   Q.  The next column which says specimens, the two numbers are

      11   what?

      12   A.  Those were the specimen numbers assigned to the individual

      13   fragments that were analyzed in the FBI laboratory.

      14   Q.  After you broke down the fragments into their respective

      15   composition groups can you tell us whether or not photographs

      16   were taken of the fragments that comprised these composition

      17   groups?

      18   A.  Yes, a photograph was taken of each composition group.

      19   Q.  I'm going to approach, Ms. Lundy, with what has been

      20   premarked for identification as Government Exhibits 1146

      21   through 1164.

      22            Have you had opportunity to review those exhibits

      23   before you came to court today?

      24   A.  Yes, I did.

      25   Q.  Can you tell us what they are?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2743
           13J1BIN2
                                   Lundy - direct

       1   A.  Each one of these exhibits is a photograph of the fragment

       2   separated into their different composition groups.

       3            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer

       4   Government Exhibits 1146 through 1164 and also 1156A, 1162A

       5   and 1163 A.

       6            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.

       7            THE COURT:  Received.

       8            (Government's Exhibits 1146 through 1164 and also

       9   1156A, 1162A and 1163A received in evidence)

      10            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 1162 A, please.

      11   Q.  Now, Ms. Lundy, after you had assigned the pieces to their

      12   respective composition groups, did you try to actually piece

      13   them together to see if they made up more of a whole of a

      14   cylinder tank?

      15   A.  Well, when the, after the fragments were analyzed and

      16   placed into the different composition groups we started

      17   looking at them and seeing that in some cases you could

      18   actually put the pieces back together as in this photograph

      19   that's now being displayed.

      20            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, I have no further questions.

      21            MR. RUHNKE:  No questions.

      22            THE COURT:  You may step down.

      23            (Witness excused)

      24            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, the government calls Rick

      25   Leas.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2744
           13J1BIN2
                                    Leas - direct

       1    RICHARD L. LEAS,

       2        called as a witness by the government,

       3        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

       4   DIRECT EXAMINATION

       5   BY MR. KARAS:

       6   Q.  Good morning, sir.

       7   A.  Good morning.

       8   Q.  Can you tell us how you're employed?

       9   A.  I'm employed as a fingerprint specialist at the Federal

      10   Bureau of Investigation in Washington, D.C.

      11   Q.  For how long have you been a fingerprint specialist at the

      12   FBI?

      13   A.  I've been a fingerprint specialist for 16 years in two

      14   weeks.  April 1st it will be 16 years.

      15   Q.  Can you tell us a little bit about the training you

      16   received to become a fingerprint specialist?

      17   A.  Upon, when I first became working at the FBI in 1970 I was

      18   trained in the classification, searching and the handling of

      19   inked cards.  In 1985 I entered into the latent fingerprint

      20   section where I became a fingerprint specialist.

      21            Upon entering in to the latent section I went through

      22   one year of training in the processing, the handling of

      23   evidence, the comparison of latent prints for one full year

      24   until I was qualified as a fingerprint specialist.

      25   Q.  Now, did there come a time, Mr. Leas, you were asked to

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2745
           13J1BIN2
                                    Leas - direct

       1   examine items that had been brought from Dar es Salaam

       2   Tanzania in connection with the embassy bombing?

       3   A.  Yes.

       4   Q.  And what task were you given, sir, in connection with

       5   those items?

       6   A.  I was asked to examine these items for the presence of

       7   latent prints to determine if latent prints were present or

       8   could be developed on these items, and if latent prints were

       9   present or developed I would have them photographed and then I

      10   would compare these latent prints with the inked prints of

      11   individuals.

      12   Q.  In conducting your examination of these items did you

      13   follow the suggested FBI protocol for the processing of latent

      14   fingerprints?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  Mr. Leas, I'm going to approach with what has been marked

      17   for identification as Government Exhibit 1461.

      18            Mr. Leas, in the course of your processing of these

      19   various exhibits were you able to recover latent prints from

      20   some of the items?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Can you tell us whether or not you were also able to

      23   identify these prints by comparing them to inked fingerprints?

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  Can you tell us what Government Exhibit 1461 is?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2746
           13J1BIN2
                                    Leas - direct

       1   A.  Government Exhibit 1461 is a summary of some of the items

       2   that I examined, some of the latent prints I developed and

       3   some of the latent prints that I identified.

       4   Q.  Have you compared that summary analysis with the notes and

       5   the reports that you prepared in connection with your

       6   examination of the items?

       7   A.  Yes.

       8   Q.  Is the information that is contained on the summary

       9   accurate?

      10   A.  Yes.

      11            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we offer Government Exhibit

      12   1461.

      13            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.

      14            THE COURT:  Received.

      15            (Government's Exhibit 1461 received in evidence)

      16            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 1461.

      17            Now, Mr. Leas, the fourth column over where it says

      18   method?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  Can you just tell us briefly what the NIN stands for?

      21   A.  The NIN stands for Ninhydrin.  Ninhydrin is a chemical

      22   agent that is dissolved into a carrying agent which consists

      23   primarily of petroleum ether, and it's sprayed onto an item to

      24   develop latent prints.

      25   Q.  The next column over where it says latents lifted and it

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2747
           13J1BIN2
                                    Leas - direct

       1   says 5-FPTS, does that mean you found five identifiable latent

       2   fingerprints on that item?

       3   A.  That means that five fingerprints that were developed on

       4   that item were identified with Khalfan Khamis Mohamed.

       5   Q.  When you say identified with Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, can

       6   you tell us exactly what you mean by that?

       7   A.  Upon developing these prints and having them photographed

       8   and then further comparing these latent prints with the inked

       9   fingerprints of Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, I was able to

      10   determine that five latent fingerprints that were developed on

      11   that item were in fact the same as the fingerprints on the

      12   same print card that went to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed's name.

      13   Q.  Now, with respect to the next item there, Government

      14   Exhibit 1420, have you prepared an enlargement of where you

      15   identified the latent print?

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  In particular, the palm print that's listed there?

      18   A.  Yes.

      19            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, may I ask that Mr. Leas be

      20   allowed to step down?

      21            THE COURT:  Yes.

      22            (Witness left stand)

      23   Q.  Mr. Leas, I've put before you what has been marked for

      24   identification as Government Exhibit 1420-LP-1.

      25            Can you tell us what that is?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2748
           13J1BIN2
                                    Leas - direct

       1   A.  Yes, this is an enlargement of a portion of Government

       2   Exhibit 1420.

       3   Q.  Did you help prepare that enlargement yourself?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor we offer Government Exhibit

       6   1420-LP-1.

       7            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.

       8            THE COURT:  Received.

       9            (Government's Exhibit 1420-LP-1 received in evidence)

      10   Q.  If you can also take a look right behind you what has been

      11   marked for identification as Government Exhibit 1420-LP-2 and

      12   can you tell us what that is?

      13   A.  Government Exhibit 1420-LP-2 is --

      14   Q.  Just tell us what it is.

      15   A.  Okay.  It's an enlargement of a palm print, enlargement

      16   marked latent palm print enlargement of the latent palm print

      17   which was developed on Government Exhibit 1420.

      18            The enlargement marked inked palm print is an

      19   enlargement of a portion of the inked palm print of Khalfan

      20   Khamis Mohamed.

      21            MR. KARAS:  At this time we offer Government Exhibit

      22   1420-LP-2.

      23            MR. RUHNKE:  Without objection.

      24            THE COURT:  Received.

      25            (Government's Exhibit 1420-LP-2 received in evidence)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2749
           13J1BIN2
                                    Leas - direct

       1   Q.  Mr. Leas, if you could with the larger picture if you

       2   could just turn that around and show the jury exactly what it

       3   is that is depicted in that picture?

       4   A.  This exhibit 1420-LP-1 is a portion of the exhibit,

       5   Government Exhibit 1420.  What is on here is latent prints

       6   that were developed on the exhibit 1420.  And in the lower

       7   left-hand corner is the latent palm print that was developed

       8   on here that was compared with the palm print of Khalfan

       9   Khamis Mohammed.  Also on here are latent fingerprints that

      10   were developed with the Ninhydrin process.

      11   Q.  Thank you.  If you could take a look at 1420-LP-2 and

      12   explain to the jury, first of all, what those red numbers are

      13   around both photographs there?

      14   A.  The red numbers and the lines that are coming from the

      15   numbers illustrate ridge characteristics that are present in

      16   both the latent palm print and the inked palm print.

      17   Q.  Were you able to compare the latent palm print with the

      18   inked palm print and draw any conclusion?

      19   A.  Yes.

      20   Q.  What was the conclusion?

      21   A.  In comparing the latent palm print with the inked palm

      22   print I was able to determine that the latent palm print that

      23   was developed on Government Exhibit 1420 and the inked palm

      24   print present on the fingerprints or palm print card of

      25   Khalfan Khamis Mohammed came from, were made by one and the

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2750
           13J1BIN2
                                    Leas - direct

       1   same palm.

       2   Q.  Can you tell us the basis of that conclusion?

       3   A.  The basis for this conclusion is determined by comparing

       4   the ridge characteristics of the latent palm print and seeing

       5   if the ridge characteristics on the latent palm print also are

       6   present in the inked palm print in the same relevant portion

       7   and area.

       8            And when you find that they are, that's when you

       9   determine that they do indeed come from the same palm.

      10   Q.  Can you just give us a couple of examples where you were

      11   able to make the comparison?

      12   A.  Yes.  If I could direct your attention to the enlargement

      13   marked latent palm print, in the top right-hand corner of the

      14   photograph approximately 3 inches down from the top towards

      15   the right border, if you would direct your attention, it's the

      16   ridge flowing upward and ending, ridge characteristic number

      17   1.  From ridge characteristic number 1, moving across one

      18   intervening ridge to the next ridge is also a ridge flowing

      19   upward and ending.  Where this ridge ends I've indicated ridge

      20   characteristic number 2.

      21            From ridge characteristic number 2 moving to the left

      22   and to the next ridge that ridge lays down and ends.  Where

      23   this ends I've illustrated ridge characteristic 3.

      24            From ridge characteristic 3 moving across one ridge

      25   to the next ridge there is a ridge flowing upwards and that

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2751
           13J1BIN2
                                    Leas - direct

       1   where this ends I've indicated ridge characteristic 4.

       2            Now, moving to the enlargement marked inked palm

       3   print and bearing in mind for these two palm prints to be made

       4   by the same palm the same ridge characteristics must also

       5   appear in the inked palm print in the same relevant position

       6   and area, so on the inked palm print upper right-hand corner

       7   approximately 3 inches from the top edge is a ridge flowing

       8   upward and ending.  Where this ridge ends I've indicated ridge

       9   characteristic 1.

      10            Moving across one intervening ridge to the next ridge

      11   it is flowing upward and ending.  Where it ends I've indicated

      12   ridge characteristic 2.  Moving across one intervening ridge

      13   to the next it flows downward and ends.  Where it ends I've

      14   indicated ridge characteristic number 3.

      15            From ridge characteristic number 3 moving across one

      16   intervening ridge to the next ridge is a ridge flowing upward.

      17   Where it ends I've indicated ridge characteristic number 4.

      18            You can see these four ridge characteristics on the

      19   latent palm print and the inked palm print are in the same

      20   relevant position and area on both prints.

      21            Now, these four characteristics, plus these others I

      22   have marked on here, and others that are present in both the

      23   inked and the latent palm print that I determined that the

      24   latent palm print developed on Government Exhibit 1420 and the

      25   inked palm print from palm print card of Khalfan Khamis

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2752
           13J1BIN2
                                    Leas - direct

       1   Mohammed were made by one and the same palm.

       2            MR. KARAS:  Thank you, Mr. Leas.  I have no further

       3   questions.

       4            MR. RUHNKE:  No questions.

       5            THE COURT:  Thank you.

       6            (Witness excused)

       7            THE COURT:  You are excused.

       8            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, the government calls Ron

       9   Kelly.

      10    RON KELLY, resumed.

      11            THE COURT:  Mr. Kelly, the Court advises you that

      12   you're still under oath.

      13   DIRECT EXAMINATION

      14   BY MR. KARAS:

      15   Q.  Good morning, sir.

      16   A.  Good morning.

      17   Q.  I believe you previously testified that you worked in the

      18   chemistry unit at the FBI?

      19   A.  It the explosives unit of the FBI.

      20   Q.  Excuse me.  Can you tell us a little bit about your

      21   educational background?

      22   A.  Certainly.  In 1977 I graduated from the University of

      23   Maryland with a bachelors of science degree in chemistry, and

      24   I continued one additional year taking courses in law

      25   enforcement and criminology.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2753
           13J1BIN2
                                   Kelly - direct

       1   Q.  Can you tell us a little bit about the training you've

       2   received in the area of chemistry and explosives?

       3   A.  1978 I joined the FBI laboratory and was assigned to the

       4   chemistry unit at the time.  There under the tutelage of

       5   experienced chemists and other examiners in the unit I got a

       6   lot of on-the-job training that was pertinent to the

       7   examinations that I'd be performing in the unit.

       8            Additionally, I attended many courses at our training

       9   facility at Quantico, Virginia, having to do again with the

      10   instrumentation and forensic analyses that I would perform in

      11   the unit.  Augmenting that I took many courses offered by

      12   private agencies, other government agencies, and companies

      13   that we dealt with as far as instrumentation that we used in

      14   our laboratory to perform our analysis.

      15            In addition to that, I have received training in the

      16   area of evidence collection and some field investigative

      17   techniques.

      18   Q.  Now, in fact, have you helped process crime scenes

      19   yourself, Mr. Kelly?

      20   A.  Yes, I have.  I have been to several of the major

      21   explosion investigations that we've been involved in such as

      22   Oklahoma City, TWA 800, and the bombings at the embassies here

      23   in Africa.

      24   Q.  Did there come a time that you were asked to perform an

      25   examination of various items that were retrieved from the

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2754
           13J1BIN2
                                   Kelly - direct

       1   vicinity of the American Embassy in Dar es Salaam?

       2   A.  Yes, I was.

       3   Q.  Can you tell us what you were asked to do in connection

       4   with those items?

       5   A.  My main responsibility with the evidence that I received

       6   was to perform chemical examination for the presence of

       7   explosives or explosives residues on the various items that I

       8   received.

       9   Q.  Can you tell us whether or not there is a standard

      10   protocol that the FBI lab uses to determine the existence of

      11   chemical residue on items?

      12   A.  Yes.  We have a standard examination protocol which I

      13   followed in this case.

      14   Q.  Did you conduct examinations you were requested to

      15   conduct?

      16   A.  Yes, I did.

      17   Q.  Can you tell us whether or not, generally speaking, you

      18   found that there was chemical residue left on some of the

      19   items that you examined?

      20   A.  Yes, there was chemical residues of two explosives found

      21   on many of the items that I examined in this case.

      22   Q.  Did you prepare reports and take notes during your

      23   examination of these items?

      24   A.  Yes, I did.

      25   Q.  Sir, I'm going to approach you with what has been

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2755
           13J1BIN2
                                   Kelly - direct

       1   premarked for identification as Government Exhibit 1462 and

       2   ask you to take a look at it.

       3            Do you recognize that exhibit, sir?

       4   A.  Yes, I do.

       5   Q.  Can you tell us what it is?

       6   A.  This is a summary chart of the analysis, chemical analysis

       7   that I performed on some of the items that were submitted for

       8   explosive residue analysis.

       9   Q.  Have you compared this chart with the reports and the

      10   notes that you prepared during your examination?

      11   A.  Yes, I have.

      12   Q.  Can you tell us whether or not the information contained

      13   on that summary chart is accurate?

      14   A.  The information contained in this summary chart is a fair

      15   and accurate representation of the examination result that I

      16   obtained while performing chemical residue analysis on the

      17   items described therein.

      18            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time the government

      19   offers exhibit 1462.

      20            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.

      21            THE COURT:  Received.

      22            (Government's Exhibit 1462 received in evidence)

      23            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 1462, please.

      24   Q.  Now, Mr. Kelly, the very first category of items there you

      25   see at the top says US Embassy Dar es Salaam?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2756
           13J1BIN2
                                   Kelly - direct

       1   A.  Yes, I do.

       2   Q.  The FBI number Q4 and the Government Exhibit number 1110.

       3   The debris from the crater, do you see that?

       4   A.  Yes, I do.

       5   Q.  Now, have you been to crime scenes where you have seen a

       6   bomb crater?

       7   A.  Yes, I have.

       8   Q.  Can you tell us what effect, if any, the existence of

       9   water standing on top of the bomb crater would have on TNT

      10   residue that would be at the bottom of that crater?

      11   A.  With TNT residue water, small amounts of water would or

      12   could act as an insulator in some cases to protect the TNT

      13   that may be present on the items within the crater.

      14   Q.  Now, Mr. Kelly, can you tell us whether or not TNT residue

      15   left on items is stable or unstable so that it would evaporate

      16   over time?

      17   A.  TNT is a fairly stable explosive.  It will evaporate over

      18   an extended period of time, but for the most part when we're

      19   dealing with explosives in general, TNT is a fairly stable

      20   material that would last a fairly long time.

      21   Q.  If somebody were to take clothes and wash them a couple of

      22   times what effect, if any, would that have on any TNT residue

      23   on those clothes?

      24   A.  Again, most explosives on clothing if the clothing is

      25   washed in a fairly typical laundry detergent, a couple of

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2757
           13J1BIN2
                                   Kelly - direct

       1   washings would eventually remove explosives from the material.

       2   Other emulsifiers are in detergents to remove grease and grime

       3   would also be effective in removing explosives.

       4            MR. KARAS:  Thank you Mr. Kelly.  I have no further

       5   questions.

       6            THE COURT:  Cross-examination by Mr. Ruhnke on behalf

       7   of defendant KK Mohamed.

       8   CROSS-EXAMINATION

       9   BY MR. RUHNKE:

      10   Q.  Agent, if I recall your testimony when you here before,

      11   you testified that you examined and tested for trace amounts

      12   of residue, is that correct?

      13   A.  In the laboratory or are you referring to?

      14   Q.  Yes.

      15   A.  We examined for both trace amounts of explosives, but we

      16   can also examine bulk explosives, also.

      17   Q.  But in this case your examination was directed primarily

      18   to trace analysis, correct?

      19   A.  That's correct.  I don't recall, there was a couple of

      20   items that we did examine for bulk explosives, just very few.

      21   The majority of the items by far were for trace amounts of

      22   explosives.

      23   Q.  And when you do trace analysis you're testifying for or

      24   trying to discovery what are microscopic and even

      25   submicroscopic residue of explosives is that correct?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2758
           13J1BIN2
                            Kelly - cross/Ruhnke/Wilford

       1   A.  That is correct.

       2   Q.  And just so I'm clear on this, when you talk about

       3   somebody having TNT residue on their blue jeans or on an item,

       4   we're not talking about it being an explosive hazard, are we?

       5   A.  No.  It is not explosive hazard in those quantities.

       6            MR. RUHNKE:  Right.  Thank you.

       7            MR. WILFORD:  I'm sorry, your Honor.

       8            THE COURT:  Mr. Wilford.

       9   CROSS-EXAMINATION

      10   BY MR. WILFORD:

      11   Q.  Good morning, Agent Kelly.

      12   A.  Good morning.

      13   Q.  Agent Kelly, when you were discussing just a moment ago

      14   with Mr. Karas the TNT residue you were referring to residue

      15   that would remain after an explosion or prior to an explosion?

      16   A.  In the particular case we were discussing we were

      17   discussing debris in a crater so that would be referring to an

      18   incident that would occur after an explosion.

      19   Q.  Would it be fair to say, Agent Kelly, that there is a

      20   difference in the molecular structure of the both pre and

      21   postexplosion?

      22   A.  Actually, no.  The TNT itself is a compound which again is

      23   not altered by the explosion per se if it's remaining there

      24   after the explosion.  It's the residues of TNT and explosion

      25   would be molecularly the same as the TNT prior to the

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2759
           13J1BIN2
                                Kelly - cross/Wilford

       1   explosion.  TNT though usually is mostly consumed in an

       2   explosion and there'd be just very, very small quantities

       3   left, but it would still be the same molecular structure.

       4            (Continued on next page)

       5

       6

       7

       8

       9

      10

      11

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2760
           13jkbin3
                                    Kelly - cross

       1   Q.  Do you remember Mr. Karas asking you a question regarding

       2   the washing of clothes and the effect that would have on the

       3   TNT residue?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  You said that after a few washings with normal soap

       6   emulsifiers would in fact dissipate the TNT so that you

       7   wouldn't be able to find the residue; is that correct?

       8   A.  That is in correct.

       9   Q.  If the clothes in fact were not washed, if they were

      10   placed in a bag and held in the bag for several weeks without

      11   being washed at all, you would in fact then find TNT residue;

      12   is that correct?

      13   A.  If those items of clothing had been exposed to fairly

      14   significant quantities of explosives, yes, that TNT would

      15   definitely remain on those clothings after several weeks.

      16   Q.  Do you have any way of measuring the area on a particular

      17   piece of clothing on which TNT residue was found?  Would it be

      18   from a particular grid, centimeters by centimeters or inches

      19   by inches, or would you just say TNT residue was found?

      20   A.  Generally speaking we vacuum the clothing items.  In

      21   particular we try to vacuum areas which are going to be in

      22   contact with the person's hands or touching area.  So we would

      23   be doing pockets where generally hands would be going.  Again,

      24   those would be the most likely areas where a transfer of

      25   explosive residue would be found.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2761
           13jkbin3
                                    Kelly - cross

       1   Q.  But for clothes that were in a bag, some uncontaminated

       2   with respect to TNT and TNT-contaminated clothes that were in

       3   a bag, you would have no way of knowing which part was

       4   transferred to which part, would you?

       5            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, objection to form.

       6            THE COURT:  Overruled.  Do you understand the

       7   question?

       8            THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.

       9            THE COURT:  You may answer.

      10   A.  Items of clothing that are commingled in a bag, the action

      11   of just putting them in and the surfaces of the clothing

      12   rubbing could transfer TNT from pieces with clothes to a piece

      13   of clothing without exposure, yes.

      14            (Continued on next page)

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2762
           13jkbin3

       1            MR. WILFORD:  Thank you very much.  Nothing further

       2   of this witness.

       3            THE COURT:  Anything further of this witness?

       4            MR. KARAS:  No, your Honor.

       5            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

       6            (Witness excused)

       7            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we would propose to read some

       8   stipulations.  The first is marked for identification as

       9   Government's Exhibit 51.

      10            It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the

      11   parties as follows.

      12            1.  Government's Exhibits 20 through 24 are true and

      13   accurate copies of the documents on file concerning the

      14   applications for Kenyan identity cards, with photographs and

      15   fingerprints, of Sheik Ahmed Salim Swedan, Fahid Mohammed

      16   Ally, Mohammed Karama Salim, Mohammad Fadhil Mustafa, and

      17   Fazul Abdelahi Mohamed, without fingerprints.

      18            2.  It is stipulated that an FBI agent would testify

      19   that the copy of fingerprints of Fazul Abdelahi Mohamed were

      20   sent to the FBI and affixed to an FBI fingerprint card of

      21   which a true and accurate copy is Government's Exhibit 25.

      22            Your Honor, at this time we offer Government's

      23   Exhibit 51 and the exhibits referenced therein.

      24            THE COURT:  Received.  That is 51 and Exhibits 20

      25   through 24 and 25.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13jkbin3

       1            (Government's Exhibits 20 through 25 and 51 received

       2   in evidence)

       3            MR. KARAS:  This is a stipulation marked for

       4   identification as Government's Exhibit 66.  It is hereby

       5   stipulated and agreed by and between the parties that if

       6   called as a witness at trial, a law enforcement officer would

       7   testify that he took the fingerprints and palm prints of

       8   Khalfan Khamis Mohamed on October 7, 1999, in New York, and

       9   that Government's Exhibits 26A and 26B are fair and accurate

      10   copies of the fingerprint and palm print cards on which he

      11   marked these fingerprints and palm prints.

      12            Your Honor, at this time we offer Government's

      13   Exhibits 66 and Government's Exhibits 26A and B.

      14            THE COURT:  Received.

      15            (Government's Exhibits 26A, 26B and 66 received in

      16   evidence)

      17            MR. KARAS:  The next stipulation is marked for

      18   identification as Government's Exhibit 67.  It is hereby

      19   stipulated and agreed as follows:

      20            1.  Government's Exhibit 255 is a fair and accurate

      21   map of Dar es Salaam, Tanzania.

      22            2.  Government's Exhibit 256 is a fair and accurate

      23   map of the shown portions of Tanzania, Kenya and Somalia.

      24            3.  Government's Exhibit 258 is a fair and accurate

      25   map of the eastern coasts of Kenya and Tanzania.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13jkbin3

       1            4.  Government's Exhibit 257 is a fair and accurate

       2   map of the southern portion of the continent of Africa.

       3            At this time, your Honor, we offer Government's

       4   Exhibit 67 and the exhibits referenced.

       5            THE COURT:  66, 255, 256, 257, 258 are received.

       6            (Government's Exhibits 66 and 255 through 258

       7   received in evidence)

       8            MR. KARAS:  Finally, stipulation marked for

       9   identification as Government's Exhibit 70.  It is hereby

      10   stipulated and agreed by and between the parties as follows:

      11            1.  On October 5, 1999, representatives from the

      12   South African Home Affairs Office, HAO, conducted a lawful

      13   search of the premises located at 14 Aquarius Road, Capetown,

      14   South Africa.  During this search, HAO officers recovered one

      15   jacket, marked as Government's Exhibit 1010, which had in one

      16   of the pockets a set of keys, marked as Government's Exhibit

      17   1011.

      18            2.  Thereafter, on October 5, 1999, South African HAO

      19   officers, in the company of special agents from the FBI,

      20   conducted a search of a room within the residential premises

      21   known as 58 Pine Street, Capetown, South Africa.  If called to

      22   testify, one of the persons participating in or present for

      23   the search would testify that the room was locked, but the

      24   keys found in the jacket located at 14 Aquarius Road opened

      25   the door.  Before the search was conducted, a special agent

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13jkbin3

       1   from the Diplomatic Security Service, United States Department

       2   of State, conducted explosives detection swipes in the room

       3   and found no explosives residue.

       4            3.  Government's Exhibits 1012A through 1012L are

       5   photographs taken of 58 Pine Street and the room within the

       6   day it was searched on October 5, 1999.

       7            4.  During the search of 58 Pine Street, HAO officers

       8   and FBI special agents recovered the following:  One

       9   vaccination certificate in the name of Zahran Nassor, marked

      10   Government's Exhibit 1015; one cloth bag, marked as 1016; one

      11   white skull cap, marked as 1017; one Tanzanian passport in the

      12   name Zahran Nassor Maulid, marked as 1018; one piece of paper

      13   with "things to do" written on top, 1019; two business cards

      14   for Burger World, marked 1020.

      15            FBI agents obtained custody of the items found at 58

      16   Pine Street and 14 Aquarius Road on October 5, 1999, which

      17   were transported to the United States via airplane and brought

      18   to the forensics laboratory at FBI headquarters in Washington,

      19   D.C.

      20            At this time, your Honor, we offer Government's

      21   Exhibit 70 and the exhibits referenced therein.

      22            THE COURT:  Government's Exhibits 70 and 1015 through

      23   1020 are received.

      24            (Government's Exhibits 70, 1010, 1011, 1015 through

      25   1020, and 1012A through 1012L received in evidence)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13jkbin3

       1            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, now might be a good time for

       2   a break.

       3            THE COURT:  We will take a break.  As a matter of

       4   fact, we will take a break through the lunch hour.  We will

       5   take a break until 2:00.

       6            (Jury excused)

       7            THE COURT:  Would counsel like to have an opportunity

       8   to confer with each other before we resume the matters that

       9   were begun in the robing room?

      10            COUNSEL:  Yes, your Honor.

      11            MR. COHN:  In addition, the government gave us this

      12   morning 3500 material for a witness I won't name here.

      13   3584-1, which I would like to take up with the court.

      14            THE COURT:  Why don't we take all those matters up at

      15   12:15.

      16            MR. WILFORD:  12:30, your Honor.

      17            (Recess)

      18            (Pages 2767-2788 sealed)

      19            (Luncheon recess)

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4

       1                 A F T E R N O O N    S E S S I O N

       2                            1:50 p.m.

       3            (Pages 2789 through 2792 sealed)

       4            (In open court; jury present)

       5            THE COURT:  Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm

       6   advised that the next witness will testify as to post-arrest

       7   statements made by KK Mohamed to law enforcement personnel.  I

       8   instruct you that these statements are received and may be

       9   considered by you solely as evidence against KK Mohamed and

      10   not considered by you to any extent with regard to any other

      11   defendants now on trial.

      12            I advise you also that the same rule applies as to

      13   statements made by Al-'Owhali and Odeh after their arrest.

      14   Those statements may be considered by you solely as to the

      15   defendant making the statement and may not be considered by

      16   you to any extent with regard to any other defendants.

      17            Although I will repeat these rulings in greater

      18   detail in my final instruction to you, and you will have a

      19   copy of them before you begin your deliberations, this may be

      20   a good time to advise you why the law makes a distinction

      21   between statements made by alleged conspirators before their

      22   arrest and those made after their arrest.

      23            The rules of evidence generally provide that if a

      24   jury finds beyond a reasonable doubt that a conspiracy

      25   existed, then any acts done or statements made in furtherance

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4

       1   of that conspiracy may be considered against any other

       2   defendant you also find to have been a member of that

       3   conspiracy.

       4            For this rule to apply, the jury must first determine

       5   that the statements made by alleged coconspirators were made

       6   during the existence and in furtherance of the conspiracy.

       7   With exceptions not relevant to this case, statements made by

       8   defendants are not statements made in furtherance of the

       9   conspiracy and therefore may not be considered with regard to

      10   any other defendant.

      11            I repeat, therefore, that evidence or of statements

      12   made after their arrest by defendants Al-'Owhali, Odeh, and KK

      13   Mohamed, are received in evidence, but are to be considered by

      14   you solely as to the specific defendant making such statement.

      15            The government may call its next witness.

      16            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, the government calls Special

      17   Agent Abigail Perkins.

      18    ABIGAIL PERKINS,

      19        called as a witness by the government,

      20        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

      21   DIRECT EXAMINATION

      22   BY MR. KARAS:

      23   Q.  Good afternoon, Agent Perkins.

      24   A.  Good afternoon.

      25   Q.  Who do you work for?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   A.  The FBI.

       2   Q.  For how long have you worked for the FBI?

       3   A.  For five plus years.

       4   Q.  Have you been assigned to the investigation of the bombing

       5   of the American Embassy in Dar es Salaam Tanzania?

       6   A.  Yes, I have.

       7   Q.  Can you tell the jury where you were on October 5, 199?

       8   A.  I was in Cape Town, South Africa.

       9   Q.  And did there come a time when you were in Cape Town,

      10   South Africa that you met Khalfan Khamis Mohamed?

      11   A.  Yes, I did.

      12   Q.  Where exactly did you meet him?

      13   A.  At the Cape Town International Airport in a holding cell.

      14   Q.  In whose custody was Mr. Mohamed at that time?

      15   A.  The home affairs officers in Cape Town.

      16   Q.  Can you tell us what the home affairs office is?

      17   A.  Basically they are immigration officials.

      18   Q.  Now, did there come a time that you interviewed Khalfan

      19   Khamis Mohamed?

      20   A.  Yes, I did.

      21   Q.  And when was that?

      22   A.  October 5, 1999.

      23   Q.  At approximately what time?

      24   A.  At approximately 1:15.

      25   Q.  In the afternoon?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   A.  In the afternoon.

       2   Q.  Can you tell us what happened when you first met Khalfan

       3   Khamis Mohamed?

       4   A.  Myself and Special Agent Mike Forsee.  We introduced

       5   ourselves.  We told him we were representatives of the US

       6   government, and identified ourselves as FBI agents.

       7   Q.  And what did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say in response to

       8   anything?

       9   A.  He said he knew who the FBI was.

      10   Q.  After he said he knew what the FBI was, what did you do

      11   next?

      12   A.  We then asked him that if he did decide to speak to us

      13   could he speak to us in English.

      14   Q.  What did he say?

      15   A.  He said that he could.

      16   Q.  Did you ask him how it was he came to learn English?

      17   A.  Yes, we did.

      18   Q.  What did he say?

      19   A.  He told us that he had taken, he had learned English in

      20   primary, secondary school; that he had taken a class in Dar es

      21   Salaam in English, and that over the course of the last year

      22   or more that he had spent in Cape Town, South Africa he had

      23   spoken predominantly English.

      24   Q.  After you ascertained that Khalfan Khamis Mohamed spoke

      25   and understood English, what happened next?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   A.  We then told him that he was not in our custody and that

       2   even though he was not in our custody, the American government

       3   custody, that he was entitled to certain rights, and we wanted

       4   to explain those rights to him.

       5   Q.  And then what happened?

       6   A.  At that point we pulled out a form that was written in

       7   English and had written at the top, advice of rights.  We

       8   explained to him first we wanted him to understand that if he

       9   had any questions whatsoever, he didn't understand something

      10   we were talking to him about, to please stop us and that we

      11   would explain it to him further.

      12            We told him that he should tell the truth, and we

      13   told him that if he did decide to speak to us, that was

      14   something we could share with the court and with the

      15   prosecutors, but that he should not entertain that we could

      16   promise him any benefit whatever if he did decide to speak to

      17   us.

      18   Q.  After you so informed Mr. Mohamed, what did you do next?

      19   A.  At that point we took the form and read it to him as he

      20   looked on.

      21   Q.  After you read this form to him, what happened?

      22   A.  After reading the form to him we asked him, do you

      23   understand what has just been read to you.

      24   Q.  What did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say in response?

      25   A.  He stated affirmatively that he did.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  Did you ask him anything else?

       2   A.  Yes, we did.  We asked him specifically did he understand

       3   what the word "rights" meant and he affirmatively said that he

       4   did.  We then asked him if he knew what a lawyer was and he

       5   again said that he did.

       6   Q.  At that time did you show Khalfan Khamis Mohamed anything

       7   else?

       8   A.  Yes, we did.

       9   Q.  What was that?

      10   A.  At that point we showed him a Swahili printed version of

      11   the English form we had just read to him.

      12   Q.  What did you do with that Swahili form?

      13   A.  We asked Khalfan to read the Swahili form to himself.

      14   Q.  And did he?

      15   A.  Yes, he did.

      16   Q.  After he read the Swahili form what happened next?

      17   A.  At that point we asked him did the Swahili version of the

      18   form that he had read to himself, was it the same as the

      19   English version that we had read to him, and he said that it

      20   was.

      21   Q.  Did you ask him if he understood his rights as depicted in

      22   the Swahili form?

      23   A.  Yes, we did.

      24   Q.  And what did he say?

      25   A.  He said that he did understand his rights and was willing

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   to speak with us.

       2   Q.  After he said he was willing to speak with you, what, if

       3   anything, did he do?

       4   A.  At that point he signed both forms, the English form and

       5   the Swahili form.

       6   Q.  Agent Perkins, I'm going to approach with what has been

       7   premarked for identification as Government Exhibits 1052A and

       8   B.

       9            Can you tell us what 1052A is?

      10   A.  1052A is the English advice of rights form that I've just

      11   spoken of.

      12   Q.  Who signed it at the bottom?

      13   A.  I signed at the bottom as well as Special Agent Mike

      14   Forsee and Khalfan Khamis Mohamed signed it as well.

      15   Q.  Is there a date and time indicated at the signature?

      16   A.  Yes, there is.  1:30 p.m. October 5, 1999.

      17   Q.  Can you take a look at 1052B and tell us what is?

      18   A.  1052B is the Swahili translated version of the English

      19   form that I've just spoken of as well.

      20   Q.  Are there any signatures at the bottom of that?

      21   A.  It contains my signature, the signature of Mike Forsee and

      22   the signature of Khalfan Khamis Mohamed.

      23            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer

      24   Government Exhibits 1052A and B.

      25            MR. STERN: No objection.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1            THE COURT:  Received.

       2            (Government's Exhibits 1052A and B received in

       3   evidence.

       4            MR. KARAS:  If we can display 1052A please.

       5   Q.  After Khalfan Khamis Mohamed signed those two forms what,

       6   if anything, did he ask you?

       7   A.  At that point he asked us, does this mean I'm going to see

       8   America.

       9   Q.  What did you say in response?

      10   A.  We told him, yes, there is a good chance that he would.

      11   Q.  And what, if anything else, did he ask you next?

      12   A.  Then he asked us if his case had already begun in America.

      13   Q.  What did you say?

      14   A.  We told him that it had.

      15   Q.  And did you tell him anything about that case in America?

      16   A.  We did.  We explained to him a little bit about how

      17   evidence is presented to a grand jury and the grand jury

      18   issues an indictment.  At that point we asked him do you know

      19   what evidence is?

      20   Q.  And what did he say?

      21   A.  He said evidence is proof.

      22   Q.  Then what happened?

      23   A.  We said the indictment warrants were issued for him, and

      24   at that point we showed him copies of two different warrants

      25   containing the charges against him.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  And did he indicate whether or not he understood the

       2   charges that had been brought against him?

       3   A.  He did.  He said that he read the warrants, looked at both

       4   of them and said that he understood the charges against him.

       5   Q.  Now, after you showed him the warrants and he indicated he

       6   understood the charges, what happened next?

       7   A.  At that point we wanted to inform him that we were showing

       8   him the warrants, the reason for showing him the warrant was

       9   not that he was under arrest pursuant to the warrants, but

      10   that we wanted him to understand the charges that he had

      11   against him as well as the purpose of the interview, why we

      12   were there to talk to him.

      13   Q.  Did he indicate his willingness to talk to you at that

      14   point?

      15   A.  He did.  He said he understood the charges and he was

      16   willing to speak to us.

      17   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you why he was

      18   willing to talk to you?

      19   A.  He said that basically because we had found him where he

      20   was in Cape Town, that we already knew everything, so there

      21   was no reason for him to tell us one thing when we knew that

      22   in fact another was true.

      23   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed if he had read anything

      24   about his participation in the bombings in the media?

      25   A.  Yes, we did.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  What did he say?

       2   A.  He said that he had seen some things on the news but he

       3   had not really read anything about himself or the others

       4   involved in the bombing.

       5   Q.  Now, you mentioned earlier that the interview began

       6   approximately 1 in the afternoon.  Can you tell us what time

       7   the interview ended that day?

       8   A.  It ended at about around 10:15 or so.

       9   Q.  Where exactly did the interview take place that day?

      10   A.  It took place in the same holding cell where I had met him

      11   at the Cape Town International Airport.

      12   Q.  Can you please describe to the jury what that holding cell

      13   looked like?

      14   A.  As you enter the holding cell it had a door with bars that

      15   served as the door.  You walk into the room.  To the left was

      16   a bathroom, and then as you walk further into the room it kind

      17   of opened up to your left.  It had carpet on the floor.  There

      18   was two single beds one against one side of the wall and one

      19   against the other side of the wall.

      20   Q.  During the interview that day on the 5th was Khalfan

      21   Khamis Mohamed handcuffed?

      22   A.  He was not.

      23   Q.  And did either you or Agent Forsee have any firearms with

      24   you?

      25   A.  No, we did not.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  Was there anybody else in the room aside from you, Agent

       2   Forsee and Khalfan Khamis Mohamed?

       3   A.  There were not.

       4   Q.  Now, what, if anything, did you tell Khalfan Khamis

       5   Mohamed with respect to breaks that he could take during the

       6   interview?

       7   A.  We told him that at any point if he needed a break for

       8   food, for water, for a rest room break or for prayer, whatever

       9   he needed he could stop us at any time, we would accommodate

      10   him.

      11   Q.  And did he take any break during the interview that day?

      12   A.  Yes, he did.

      13   Q.  When he returned from the breaks what, if anything, did

      14   you ask him?

      15   A.  We would generally tell him, do you mind if we ask you

      16   more questions, and, you can stop whenever you want.

      17   Q.  Did he ever indicate an unwillingness to answer your

      18   questions?

      19   A.  He always was willing to answer our questions.

      20   Q.  Now, did you interview Khalfan Khamis Mohamed the next day

      21   October 6?

      22   A.  Yes, we did.

      23   Q.  At approximately what time did the interview begin that

      24   day?

      25   A.  That day it was about 12:30.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  And before you began the interview what, if anything, did

       2   you do?

       3   A.  Before beginning that interview as, we had done the day

       4   previously, we again advised him of his rights using the

       5   English form as well as the translated Swahili form reading

       6   the English form to him, having him read the Swahili form and

       7   again asking him if he had any questions, did he understand

       8   his rights.  He said that he did and he again signed both

       9   forms.

      10   Q.  Agent Perkins, I'm going to approach with what have been

      11   marked for identification as Government Exhibits 1052C and D.

      12   A.  1052C is the advice of rights form that we showed to

      13   Khalfan with our signatures, mine, Special agent Forsee and

      14   Khalfan Khamis Mohammed signed.

      15   Q.  And 1052D?

      16   A.  1052D is the Swahili translation of that form that I

      17   signed, Mike Forsee signed and Khalfan Khamis Mohammed signed.

      18            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer

      19   government 1052C and D.

      20            MR. STERN:  No objection.

      21            THE COURT:  Received.

      22            (Government's Exhibits 1052C and D received in

      23   evidence)

      24   Q.  Where did the interview take place on October 6?

      25   A.  October 6 it was in the same holding cell.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2805
           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  And can you tell us whether or not you had the same

       2   arrangements with regard to breaks during the interview?

       3   A.  Yes, we did.

       4   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed take any breaks during the

       5   interview that day?

       6   A.  He did.  In fact, after we started the interview about

       7   twenty minutes into the interview he requested a prayer break

       8   and he took a 50 minute prayer break.

       9   Q.  How long did that interview last on the 6th?

      10   A.  That interview lasted until about 3:30, 3:40.

      11   Q.  In the afternoon?

      12   A.  In the afternoon.

      13   Q.  Now, did there come a time later on in the evening of

      14   October 6th that you and Khalfan Khamis Mohamed and others

      15   boarded an airplane?

      16   A.  Yes, we did.

      17   Q.  Can you tell us where that airplane went?

      18   A.  It went to the United States.

      19   Q.  Where in the United States?

      20   A.  Stuart Air Force base in Newburgh.

      21   Q.  Did you interview Khalfan Khamis Mohamed during the flight

      22   back to New York?

      23   A.  We did.

      24   Q.  Before you began the interview what, if anything, did you

      25   do?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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           13J1BIN4
                                  Perkins - direct

       1   A.  At that point on the we sat down with him on the airplane

       2   we informed him he was now in our custody, he was now in the

       3   custody of the United States; that as a result of that we had

       4   to show him a different form.  He was entitled to certain

       5   rights, but it was a different form than we read previously

       6   since he was now in our custody, and under arrest pursuant to

       7   the two warrants that had been shown to him on October 5th.

       8   Q.  And was there a Swahili version of that form?

       9   A.  Yes, there was.

      10   Q.  And what did you do with those forms?

      11   A.  We read the English form to him, asked him if he

      12   understood his rights.  He said he did, and he signed that

      13   form.  We then gave him the Swahili version of the same form,

      14   had him read that form, asked him if he understood his rights.

      15   Again, said that he did, and he said he was willing to speak

      16   to us.

      17   Q.  After he said he was willing to speak to you, did you do

      18   anything with those forms?

      19   A.  He signed both forms in our presence.

      20   Q.  Agent Perkins, I'm approaching with what has been marked

      21   for identification as Government Exhibits 1052E and F.  Are

      22   those the forms that Khalfan Khamis Mohammed signed on the

      23   airplane?

      24   A.  Yes, they are.

      25            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we offer Government Exhibits

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       1   1052E and F.

       2            MR. STERN:  No objection.

       3            THE COURT:  Received.

       4            (Government's Exhibits 1052E and F received in

       5   evidence)

       6   Q.  Was there similar arrangements with respect to breaks

       7   during the interview on the plane?

       8   A.  Yes, there was.

       9   Q.  Now, Agent Perkins, do you see Khalfan Khamis Mohamed here

      10   in the courtroom today?

      11            MR. STERN:  Identification is stipulated.

      12            THE COURT:  Identification is conceded.

      13   Q.  Agent Perkins, can you tell us whether or not Khalfan

      14   Khamis Mohammed looks the same today as when you saw him on

      15   October 5th and 6th?

      16   A.  On October 5th he had a very sparse little beard of a

      17   beard, and a little more of a growth of a goatee.  His beard

      18   is much fuller here today.  He was not wearing glasses at that

      19   time either.

      20   Q.  Now, did you talk to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about any

      21   trips he took to Afghanistan?

      22   A.  Yes, we did.

      23   Q.  And when did he say he was in Afghanistan?

      24   A.  He said he was in Afghanistan in 1994.

      25   Q.  And did he tell you who it was that told him about the

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       1   possibilities of going to Afghanistan?

       2   A.  He said that Fahad is the one who introduced him to

       3   training in Afghanistan.

       4   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you when it was he

       5   met Fahad?

       6   A.  He met Fahad sometime prior to that prior to 1994.

       7   Q.  Where was it that he met him?

       8   A.  He met in Dar es Salaam.

       9   Q.  How was it that he met him?

      10   A.  He was introduced to Fahad through a mutual friend by the

      11   name of Suliman.

      12   Q.  Why did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say he went to Afghanistan?

      13   A.  He said he went there for religious and weapons training.

      14   Q.  And did he indicate to you whether or not he saw Fahad in

      15   Afghanistan at this training?

      16   A.  He did.  He said Fahad had preceded him to the training by

      17   about a month.

      18   Q.  And did Mr. Mohamed indicate to you whether or not he

      19   heard about Usama Bin Laden while he was in Afghanistan?

      20   A.  He stated that he did.

      21   Q.  Can you tell us whether or not he said he heard anything

      22   about talk of jihad against the United States while he was in

      23   Afghanistan?

      24   A.  He said he heard jihad against the United States being

      25   discussed there.

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       1   Q.  What was the name of the camp that Khalfan Khamis Mohammed

       2   said he went to in Afghanistan?

       3   A.  Manakando.

       4   Q.  And did he indicate to you what group he understood to be

       5   responsible for running that camp?

       6   A.  He did he said it was Har Qatar.

       7   Q.  And how long did he say he was in Afghanistan?

       8   A.  He said he was there about nine to ten months.

       9   Q.  What type of training did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say he

      10   received in Afghanistan?

      11   A.  He said he received training in weapons and explosives,

      12   religious training.

      13   Q.  Did he distinguish between basic and advanced training?

      14   A.  Yes, he did.

      15   Q.  And what was he taught in basic training?

      16   A.  In basic training he described having training in some

      17   light weapons, handguns and rifles, surface to air missiles

      18   and rocket launchers.

      19   Q.  What about advanced training?  How did one get into

      20   advanced training according to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed?

      21   A.  He stated you had to be selected to go to advanced

      22   training.

      23   Q.  Was he selected?

      24   A.  Yes, he was.

      25   Q.  What types of advanced training did he say he received?

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       1   A.  He described explosive type training, connecting wires and

       2   detonators.

       3   Q.  Did Mr. Mohamed indicate to you his purpose for going to

       4   receive such training?

       5   A.  He said his purpose was to learn how to help his Muslim

       6   brothers, if necessary, through armed struggle.

       7   Q.  When approximately did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say he left

       8   Afghanistan?

       9   A.  He left sometime in 1995.

      10   Q.  Did he leave anything behind?

      11   A.  He did.

      12   Q.  What was that?

      13   A.  He left a point of contact address for his brother

      14   Mohammed in Dar es Salaam.

      15   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed whether or not he ever

      16   heard of the term bayat?

      17   A.  Yes, we did.

      18   Q.  What did he say?

      19   A.  He said he had not.

      20   Q.  And did you ask him about the term al Qaeda?

      21   A.  Yes, we did.

      22   Q.  And what did he say?

      23   A.  He said that al Qaeda was a formula system for what they

      24   had carried out, talking about the bombing.

      25   Q.  And did you ask him whether or not he'd ever heard of a

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       1   group called al Qaeda?

       2   A.  We did.

       3   Q.  And what did he say in response?

       4   A.  He claimed that he'd never heard of a group called al

       5   Qaeda.

       6            MR. STERN:  Objection.

       7            THE COURT:  Overruled.

       8   Q.  Now, did you talk to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about any

       9   trips he had taken to Mombasa, Kenya?

      10   A.  Yes, we did.

      11   Q.  And did he say how many times he went there?

      12   A.  He went there three different times.

      13   Q.  And did you ask him about some of the people he said he

      14   met there?

      15   A.  Yes, we did.

      16   Q.  Can you tell us who were some of the people he claimed to

      17   have met?

      18   A.  He knew that Fahad was from Mombasa and he went there to

      19   visit with Fahad, and Fahad introduced him to some others, a

      20   man by the name of Hussain, and a man by the name of Sheik.

      21   Q.  And did he indicate to you whether or not he met a person

      22   by the name of Suliman in Mombasa?

      23   A.  He did.  He did meet up with Suliman in Mombasa.

      24   Q.  What did Mr. Mohamed say that Suliman did for a living?

      25   A.  He said he worked on a fishing boat.

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       1   Q.  And where did he say this boat went?

       2   A.  Mombasa, Limu, Kenya, and Somalia.

       3   Q.  And did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you if the boat

       4   was used for any purpose other than fishing?

       5   A.  He did.

       6   Q.  What was that?

       7   A.  He said it was also used for jihad.

       8   Q.  You mentioned there were a couple of other people that

       9   Khalfan Khamis Mohamed met in Mombasa?

      10   A.  That's correct.

      11   Q.  Who are they?

      12   A.  He said a man by the name of Hussain, and a man by the

      13   name of Sheik.

      14   Q.  Now, did you talk to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about any

      15   trips he might have taken to Somalia?

      16   A.  Yes, we did.

      17   Q.  And when did he say he went to Somalia?

      18   A.  He said he went to Somalia in 1997.

      19   Q.  What did he say he did there?

      20   A.  He said he went there, he went there twice, and the first

      21   time he went there he was told by Hussain that they had some

      22   Muslim brothers that needed help, and he told Khalfan to go

      23   and help his Muslim brothers there.

      24   Q.  What did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say he did when he went to

      25   Somalia?

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       1   A.  He said he assisted at the training at the training camp

       2   there and he described how he saw things similar to what he

       3   had seen in Afghanistan, the light weapons, handguns, rifles,

       4   surface to air missiles and rocket launchers.

       5   Q.  And did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you how it was

       6   he got to Somalia during this trip there?

       7   A.  He did.

       8   Q.  What did he say?

       9   A.  He said that Suliman dropped him off using the fishing

      10   boat.

      11   Q.  Now, Agent Perkins, did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed if

      12   he participated in the bombing of the American Embassy in Dar

      13   es Salam?

      14   A.  Yes, we did.

      15   Q.  What did he say?

      16   A.  He said that he was involved with a group of what he

      17   called brothers, and that they were involved in a jihad

      18   against America, including the bombing of the American Embassy

      19   in Dar es Salam.

      20   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed who were the brothers

      21   with whom he participated in the bombing?

      22   A.  Yes, we did.

      23   Q.  What were the names he gave you?

      24   A.  He said a man by the name of Ahmed Khalfan, who was from

      25   Zanzibar, Tanzania; a man by the name of Fahad from Mombasa,

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       1   Kenya; a man by the name of Sheik from Mombasa Kenya; a man by

       2   the name of Hussain who he also knew by the name Mustafa, who

       3   was from Mombasa, Kenya.

       4            He said there was a man by the name of Abdu Rachman

       5   who he described as the engineer for the bomb, the man who

       6   came to set the bomb to wire the bomb, and he said there was a

       7   man by the name of Ahmed who he described as the suicide

       8   driver of the bomb truck.

       9   Q.  Now, during the course of your interview with Khalfan

      10   Khamis Mohamed did show him photographs of individuals?

      11   A.  Yes, we did.

      12   Q.  And did he recognize individuals?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  How was it that you had him indicate that recognition?

      15   A.  We asked him to write the name that he knew the person by

      16   on the back of the photograph.

      17   Q.  Agent Perkins, I'm going to approach you with what have

      18   been premarked for identification as Government Exhibits

      19   1050F, 1050T, 1050K and 1050I.  Starting with 1050F, can you

      20   tell us what is?

      21   A.  This is one of the photographs we showed to Khalfan during

      22   the course of the interview.

      23   Q.  Did he indicate whether or not he recognized the person in

      24   that photograph?

      25   A.  Yes, he did.

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       1   Q.  How did he so indicate?

       2   A.  He wrote the name, as I stated, on the back that he knew

       3   the individual by.  He wrote the name Ahmed Khalfan and signed

       4   his name.

       5   Q.  And now with respect to 105D, 1050I and 1050K, did Khalfan

       6   Khamis Mohamed indicate to you whether he recognized those

       7   individuals?

       8   A.  Yes, he did.

       9   Q.  How did he so indicate?

      10   A.  1050D he stated that he knew this man by the name of Fahad

      11   and he signed the back of that photograph.  1050K he stated

      12   that he knew this man by the name of Sheik and he wrote the

      13   name Sheik on the back, and signed his name on the back.

      14   1050I he stated he knew this man by the name of Hussain or

      15   Mustafa and he wrote those two names on the back as well as

      16   his signature on the back.

      17            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time the government

      18   offers 1050F, 1050T, 1050I and 1050K.

      19            MR. STERN:  No objection.

      20            THE COURT:  Received.

      21            (Government's Exhibits 1050F, 1050T and 1050K

      22   received in evidence)

      23   BY MR. KARAS:

      24   Q.  If we can display 1050F, please.

      25            Now, Agent Perkins, did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

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       1   describe this person Ahmed the driver that you mentioned

       2   earlier?

       3   A.  Yes, he did.

       4   Q.  What did he say he looked like?

       5   A.  He said he was very light and he had blonde hair.

       6   Q.  Now, did you talk to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about whether

       7   or not he had a meeting with Hussain in March or April of

       8   1998?

       9   A.  Yes, we did.

      10   Q.  And what did he say happened during that meeting?

      11   A.  He said during that meeting Hussain approached Khalfan and

      12   he told him that he was going to ask him to help with

      13   something, and that if Khalfan decided not to help with it

      14   that he had to keep the fact that Hussain had even asked him

      15   to help a secret.  And he then asked Khalfan if he would

      16   assist with a jihad job.

      17   Q.  And what, according to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, did he say?

      18   A.  Khalfan said he responded that he could keep a secret and

      19   that he would assist with the jihad job.

      20   Q.  Now, at the time that he was told about this jihad job was

      21   he told exactly what the target of the jihad job was?

      22   A.  He stated that he was not told.

      23   Q.  And did there come a time he told you that he was informed

      24   about the target of the jihad job?

      25   A.  Yes, he was.

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       1   Q.  And what was the target of the jihad job?

       2   A.  The American Embassy in Dar es Salam.

       3   Q.  When was it he claimed he was told about that?

       4   A.  He said that before Hussain left prior to the bombing

       5   about five days before, he was informed that the target, the

       6   location of the target was the American Embassy in Dar es

       7   Salam.

       8   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed if he understood that

       9   everybody who was in the group of brothers knew the target of

      10   the jihad job?

      11   A.  He did.  We asked him specifically to make sure that, was

      12   there anyone in the group that had been duped or fooled into

      13   participating in this jihad in this bombing, and he said that

      14   in fact, no, that everyone knew, everyone knew what was going

      15   on, and, that, in fact, they could not have carried out their

      16   mission if everyone wasn't aware of what was going on.

      17   Q.  Now, did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed describe generally for you

      18   the roles that each person played in the bombing of the

      19   embassy?

      20   A.  Yes, he did.

      21   Q.  And what was his role?

      22   A.  His responsibility was, among other things, to get

      23   transportation for the group and to get a house where they

      24   ended up making the bomb in.

      25   Q.  What was the role of Fahad and Ahmed Khalfan?

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       1   A.  Fahad and Ahmed Khalfan both together were responsible for

       2   bringing in the components of the bomb, the cylinder tanks,

       3   TNT, detonators, that sort of thing using the Suzuki that

       4   Khalfan purchased.

       5   Q.  What about the person identified as Sheik?

       6   A.  Sheik was responsible for bringing the truck.

       7   Q.  And Abdul Rahman?

       8   A.  Abdul Rahman he described as an engineer, the person who

       9   came to set to wire the bomb.

      10   Q.  And, finally, the person identified as Ahmed the driver?

      11   A.  Ahmed the driver came and he assisted some with the wiring

      12   but he came there, his purpose was to be the suicide driver of

      13   the truck.

      14   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you where it was he lived

      15   in the first part of 1998?

      16   A.  Yes, he did.

      17   Q.  Where did he say he lived?

      18   A.  He said he was living in-house in the Magomeni area of Dar

      19   es Salam.

      20   Q.  How was it that he found out about that house?

      21   A.  He said that he had a friend by the name of Abu Wadih and

      22   Abu Wadih was living in a two-family house.  He introduced

      23   Khalfan to his brother-in-law who was the owner of this

      24   two-family house and Khalfan rented the other side of the

      25   two-family house sharing a wall with Abu Wadih.

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       1   Q.  Did ask you Khalfan Khamis Mohamed if anybody ever moved

       2   into him at the Magomeni flat?

       3   A.  Yes, we did.

       4   Q.  Who is that?

       5   A.  He said that around March or April time frame of 1998,

       6   that Hussain came there to live on a permanent basis and

       7   brought his wife and two children.

       8   Q.  He mentioned that he came, Hussain came to live on a

       9   permanent business.  Had he been living there on a

      10   nonpermanent basis beforehand?

      11   A.  He did.  He said Hussain was traveling back and forth

      12   between Dar es Salam and Mombasa, Kenya and he would spend a

      13   couple of weeks to a month at a time in each place.

      14   Q.  You mentioned that Hussain and his wife and children moved

      15   in.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed if he knew the name of

      16   Hussain's wife?

      17   A.  Yes, he did.

      18   Q.  And what did he say?

      19   A.  He said that he thought Hussain's wife's name was Fatima.

      20   Q.  And did he know the name of Hussain's children?

      21   A.  He said they had son who was three to four years old by

      22   the name Anis, and they had a daughter who was about a year

      23   old by the name of Usa.

      24   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you what, if

      25   anything, the group used that Magomeni house for?

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       1   A.  He did.

       2   Q.  What was that?

       3   A.  He said that besides staying there and the different

       4   individuals coming there to visit, that Ahmed Khalfan and

       5   Fahad brought TNT to that location.

       6   Q.  How was it stored?

       7   A.  He said that when, he said the TNT was basically stored in

       8   what he described as a rice bag.  He said it was like an

       9   interwoven bag that you couldn't see into and that the top of

      10   the bag had been sewn shut so that you couldn't see that it

      11   was TNT in the bag.

      12   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you that there was

      13   a time that he and Hussain moved out of the Magomeni house?

      14   A.  Yes, he did.

      15   Q.  Did he tell you why?

      16   A.  He did.  He said that Hussain came to him at some point

      17   and told him that the house they were living in, the Magomeni

      18   house, would not serve the purpose of the mission and the

      19   group, and he specifically requested Khalfan to go find him

      20   another house that would serve their purpose.

      21   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you that he left

      22   anything behind in the Magomeni house when they left?

      23   A.  Yes, he did.

      24   Q.  What was that?

      25   A.  He said he left behind a fan a table and some carpet.

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       1   Q.  Did you talk to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about the purchase

       2   of a Suzuki?

       3   A.  Yes, we did.

       4   Q.  What did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you about that?

       5   A.  He said that Hussain came to him at some point and

       6   requested that he go out and get transportation for Hussain

       7   Fahad.

       8   Q.  What did he do?

       9   A.  So Khalfan went out and purchased the Suzuki.

      10   Q.  Did he tell you what color it was?

      11   A.  He said it was white and it had a green sticker on the

      12   side.

      13   Q.  Did he tell you who, if anybody, went with him to purchase

      14   the Suzuki?

      15   A.  He did.

      16   Q.  Who was that?

      17   A.  He said that Fahad went along with him.  That Khalfan

      18   acted as the purchaser and Fahad acted as a witness to that

      19   purchase.

      20   Q.  What was the Suzuki used for?

      21   A.  Khalfan said the Suzuki was used for basically bringing in

      22   all the components that was used in the bomb.  It was used

      23   besides for transportation, it was used to bring all of those

      24   items into the later house where they built the bomb.

      25   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed whether or not he ever

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       1   drove the Suzuki?

       2   A.  Yes, we did.

       3   Q.  What did he say?

       4   A.  He said that he could not drive.

       5   Q.  And did he indicate to you whether any other members of

       6   the group did not drive?

       7   A.  Yes, he did.

       8   Q.  Who was that?

       9   A.  He said that Ahmed Khalfan also could not drive.

      10   Q.  And how was it that he Ahmed Khalfan got around town?

      11   A.  He said that Ahmed Khalfan road on a bike with fat tires.

      12   Q.  Now, you mentioned earlier that Khalfan Khamis Mohamed and

      13   Hussain moved out of the house in Magomeni.  What did Khalfan

      14   Khamis Mohamed tell you about where they moved to?

      15   A.  He said that they moved to a house in Ilala.

      16   Q.  How was it that they found that house?

      17   A.  Hussain had told him to find a house, so Khalfan went to a

      18   broker or middleman and went looking for houses suitable for

      19   what Hussain had described.

      20   Q.  And did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed remember the name of the

      21   broker?

      22   A.  He did.  He said it was Mr. Mohamed.

      23   Q.  And what did Mr. Mohamed look like according to

      24   Mr. Khalfan Khamis Mohamed?

      25   A.  Khalfan described him as tall, skinny and old.

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       1   Q.  Now, you mentioned Ilala.  Is that an area within Dar es

       2   Salam?

       3   A.  Yes, it is.

       4   Q.  Who, if anybody, went with Khalfan Khamis Mohamed when he

       5   went to Ilala looking for a house?

       6   A.  Hussain went with Khalfan.

       7   Q.  And what were the requirements that Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

       8   and Hussain were looking for in this new house?

       9   A.  They were looking for a single family house with high

      10   walls, a gate, and a compound area, and they specifically

      11   didn't want other people in the community to be able to see

      12   into the interior of that compound area.

      13   Q.  And did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you whether or

      14   not they found such a place?

      15   A.  He did.

      16   Q.  How many places had they looked at before they settled on

      17   the one they rented?

      18   A.  He said they saw two other houses and the third house was

      19   the Ilala house that they rented.

      20   Q.  For how long did they rent that third house in Ilala?

      21   A.  They rented it, they contractually obligated themselves to

      22   a year.

      23   Q.  Who provided the money for the one-year rent?

      24   A.  Hussain gave the money to Khalfan and Khalfan actually

      25   gave that money to the owner.

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       1   Q.  Agent Perkins, I'm approaching with what has been marked

       2   for identification as Government Exhibit 1055, and I'll ask

       3   you to take a look at it.

       4            Can you tell us what that document is?

       5   A.  This is a copy of a contract that we showed to Khalfan

       6   during the course of the interview.

       7   Q.  What did he say when you showed him that?

       8   A.  He said this was the contract for the house in Ilala that

       9   he and Hussain had.

      10   Q.  Did he identify where it was he signed that contract?

      11   A.  Yes, he did.  He pointed to his signature at the bottom.

      12   Q.  Did he identify where Hussain had sign that contract?

      13   A.  Yes, he did.  He stated that the signature written Husan

      14   Ali was the signature of Hussain.

      15   Q.  Now, did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed to sign that

      16   particular copy that you showed him?

      17   A.  Yes, we did.

      18   Q.  Did he do so?

      19   A.  Yes, he did.

      20            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer

      21   Government Exhibit 1055.

      22            MR. STERN:  No objection.

      23            THE COURT:  Received.

      24            (Government's Exhibit 1055 received in evidence)

      25   Q.  Now, did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you whether or not he

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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   and Hussain and Hussain's family moved into that house?

       2   A.  He said that they did.

       3   Q.  Agent Perkins, I'm going to approach and show you what has

       4   been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 1056 and

       5   ask you to take a look at it.

       6            Can you tell us what that exhibit is?

       7   A.  This is a copy of a photograph that was shown to Khalfan

       8   during the questioning and the interview.

       9   Q.  Did he recognize what is in that photograph?

      10   A.  Yes, he did.

      11   Q.  What did he say was in that photograph?

      12   A.  He said this is a photograph of the Ilala house that he

      13   and Hussain had rented.

      14   Q.  Have you yourself been to the Ilala house?

      15   A.  Yes, I have.

      16   Q.  Do you recognize that picture?

      17   A.  Yes, I do.

      18   Q.  What do you recognize that picture to be?

      19   A.  A picture of house number 213 Ilala.

      20            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer

      21   Government Exhibit 1056.

      22            MR. STERN:  No objection.

      23            THE COURT:  Received.

      24            (Government's Exhibit 1056 received in evidence)

      25   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about any visitors that

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   came to the Ilala house that he rented?

       2   A.  Yes, we did.

       3   Q.  Who was it that he said came to visit?

       4   A.  He said that Ahmed Khalfan and Fahad came several times to

       5   the house there.

       6   Q.  And how is it they would get there?

       7   A.  They would travel in the SUV that Khalfan had purchased.

       8   Q.  Did anyone else come to visit the house?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Who was that?

      11   A.  He said Sheik also came to the house on one occasion.

      12   Q.  Did you also ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about additional

      13   people who came to live at the Ilala house?

      14   A.  Yes, we did.

      15   Q.  Who did he indicate came to live there?

      16   A.  He stated that Abdul Rahman came about a week prior to the

      17   bomb and came there to stay for that week period, as did Ahmed

      18   who was a suicide driver of the truck.

      19   Q.  Now, did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about the

      20   components of the bomb that was used at the American Embassy

      21   in Dar es Salam?

      22   A.  Yes, we did.

      23   Q.  What did he tell you comprised the bomb?

      24   A.  He told us that the bomb was made up of cylinder tanks,

      25   TNT and wooden boxes, detonators, wiring.  There were two

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   large heavy duty truck light batteries, and there were three

       2   to four bags of fertilizer and some sand bags that were used

       3   to fill the gaps in the back of the truck.

       4   Q.  Who was it that brought the TNT?

       5   A.  He said Ahmed Khalfan and Fahad brought the TNT.

       6   Q.  How was it stored?

       7   A.  Stored in the rice bag that looked like interwoven rice

       8   bag which was sewn shut at the top.

       9   Q.  How was it that Ahmed Khalfan and Fahad transported the

      10   TNT?

      11   A.  They used the Suzuki that Khalfan had purchased.

      12   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you about what the TNT

      13   looked like?

      14   A.  Yes, he did.

      15   Q.  What did he describe it as looking like?

      16   A.  He said it was cylinder in shape about the size of a soda

      17   can.  He said it had heavy wrapped paper on it.  He said there

      18   may have been some writing on it.  He said there were four

      19   hundred to five hundred pieces of the TNT.

      20   Q.  And did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed describe what the group did

      21   with this TNT?

      22   A.  He did.  He said they ground up the TNT.

      23   Q.  Who ground up the NT?

      24   A.  Khalfan specifically was involved in it, that was part of

      25   his responsibilities to grind the TNT along with Abdu Rachman.

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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   The two of them mainly were responsible for doing the grinding

       2   and had he had some assistance he said from Hussain and Ahmed

       3   the suicide driver.

       4   Q.  What was it they did with the TNT they ground?

       5   A.  After they ground the TNT up they put it into the

       6   specially made wooden boxes with wooden lids that were nailed

       7   shut.

       8   Q.  How many boxes of TNT did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say were

       9   used in the bombs?

      10   A.  He stated that there were more than twenty boxes of TNT.

      11   Q.  Agent Perkins, I'm going to approach with what has been

      12   premarked for identification as Government Exhibit 1057 and

      13   ask you to take a look at it.

      14            Can you tell us what exhibit 1057 is?

      15   A.  This is a photograph of a grinder that was shown to

      16   Khalfan during the course of the interview.

      17            (Continued on next page)

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22

      23

      24

      25

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       1   Q.  Did he recognize it?

       2   A.  Yes, he did.

       3   Q.  What did he recognize it to be?

       4   A.  He said that this was a photograph of the grinder that he

       5   used and others used to grind the TNT.

       6            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer Exhibit

       7   1057.

       8            MR. STERN:  No objection.

       9            THE COURT:  Received.

      10            (Government's Exhibit 1057 received in evidence.

      11   Q.  You mentioned earlier that cylinder tanks were used in the

      12   bomb.  Who was responsible for bringing those?

      13   A.  He said Ahmed Khalfan and Fahad brought the cylinder

      14   tanks.

      15   Q.  How did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say they transported the

      16   cylinder tanks?

      17   A.  They brought the tanks to Ilala using the Suzuki.

      18   Q.  How many cylinder tanks were used in the bomb?

      19   A.  He estimated that there were more than 15 cylinder tanks.

      20   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed describe what those tanks

      21   looked like?

      22   A.  He did.  He said that there were some tall tanks and some

      23   short tanks, and he described that they were pretty heavy.  He

      24   remembered when he was moving them that they were heavy.  He

      25   wasn't sure if there was anything in them or nothing but they

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       1   were heavy.

       2   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed know why they were used in the

       3   bomb?

       4   A.  He did not.

       5   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed describe the detonators used in

       6   the bomb?

       7   A.  He did.

       8   Q.  What description did he give?

       9   A.  He said they were aluminum, they were electrical, and that

      10   they had two wires coming out the ends.

      11   Q.  I am going to approach with what has been premarked for

      12   identification as Government's Exhibit 1053 and ask you to

      13   take a look at it.  Can you tell us what that is?

      14   A.  This is a depiction of what Khalfan -- we had him draw a

      15   depiction of what the detonator would have looked like and

      16   this is his drawing.

      17            MR. KARAS:  At this time we offer Government's

      18   Exhibit 1053.

      19            MR. STERN:  No objection.

      20            (Government's Exhibit 1053 received in evidence)

      21            MR. KARAS:  If we could display that for the jury.

      22   Q.  How many detonators did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say were

      23   used in the bomb?

      24   A.  He said there were more than a hundred.

      25   Q.  Who was it that brought these detonators?

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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   A.  Ahmed Fahad and Khalfan brought the detonators.

       2   Q.  After the group assembled the components of the bomb, what

       3   did they do with them?

       4   A.  They put them into a truck.

       5   Q.  Who was it that provided the truck?

       6   A.  Sheikh had brought the truck.

       7   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed what kind of business

       8   Sheikh was in?

       9   A.  Yes, we did.

      10   Q.  What did he say?

      11   A.  He was that he was in the lorry business, trucking

      12   business.

      13   Q.  When Sheikh provided the truck, where was it that he

      14   stored it?

      15   A.  He brought it to the Ilala house and left it there.

      16   Q.  What if anything did Hussein do to conceal the truck from

      17   public view?

      18   A.  Once the truck was there, Khalfan said that Hussein built

      19   an interior gate.  There was the compound area with the big

      20   gate, and where the truck was pulled to the left-hand side,

      21   Hussein had built a partition or a gate there so that if the

      22   exterior gate of the Ilala house were opened and people were

      23   walking by they could not see in to see the truck parked at

      24   the house.

      25   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed give you a description of the

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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   truck?

       2   A.  Yes, he did.

       3   Q.  What description was that?

       4   A.  He said it was, the cab area was white and the cargo area

       5   was cream in color, that it had about six tires, two in the

       6   front, four in the back.  He described it as a refrigeration,

       7   freezer, meat, fish type truck.

       8   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you whether or not he

       9   thought there were any alterations made in the back of the

      10   truck?

      11   A.  He did.  He said he observed when the truck got there that

      12   there was metal that had been bolted and welded into a frame

      13   in the back of the truck.

      14   Q.  What did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed understand the frames to

      15   be used for?

      16   A.  The frames were to be used to stabilize the cylinder tanks

      17   upright in the back of the truck.

      18   Q.  You mentioned earlier, Agent Perkins, that the group

      19   loaded components of the bomb into the truck.  Who exactly did

      20   Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say loaded those components into the

      21   back of the truck?

      22   A.  Khalfan stated that he assisted carrying cylinder tanks

      23   and boxes of TNT into the back of the truck, as did basically

      24   all the people who were there, Abdul Rahman, Hussein, Fahad.

      25   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed describe to you how exactly it

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   was that the boxes and the cylinders were placed into the back

       2   of the truck?

       3   A.  Yes, he did.

       4   Q.  What was the description he gave?

       5   A.  He said that the cylinder tanks were placed down into the

       6   frame and then they intermixed boxes of TNT such that it was a

       7   cylinder tank, box of TNT, cylinder tank, box of TNT, until

       8   the interior of the frame was full, and starting from the

       9   cargo area closest to the cab working back to the back of the

      10   truck, they continued the configuration cylinder tank, TNT,

      11   cylinder tank.

      12   Q.  How was it that the cylinder tanks were secured in the

      13   back?

      14   A.  He said besides the framework, they used rope to tie off

      15   the framework and stabilize it.

      16   Q.  What about the rest of the components?  Where were they

      17   placed in the truck, according to Mr. Mohamed?

      18   A.  As I said before, there were three or four bags of

      19   fertilizer and some sandbags, and they were placed into the

      20   truck to fill the gaps and stabilize the truck.

      21   Q.  What about the batteries that you mentioned earlier?

      22   A.  The two batteries were on a base and they were in the very

      23   rear of the truck.

      24   Q.  Agent Perkins, approaching with what has been premarked

      25   for identification as Government's Exhibit 1054, I ask you to

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   take a look at that.  Can you tell us what that document is.

       2   A.  This is a drawing that was completed by Special Agent

       3   Forsee.  After we had gotten the description from Khalfan with

       4   regard to the configuration in the back of the truck, Special

       5   Agent Forsee drew this configuration of the truck and we

       6   showed it to Khalfan and asked him if this was a fair

       7   depiction of what he was describing.

       8   Q.  What did he say?

       9   A.  He stated that it was.

      10            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer

      11   Government's Exhibit 1054.

      12            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.

      13            THE COURT:  Received.

      14            (Government's Exhibit 1054 received in evidence)

      15            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 1054.

      16   Q.  Agent Perkins, do you see on the left-hand side there is

      17   written wall of iron and wood to hide contents.  Can you tell

      18   us what that is referring to.

      19   A.  Yes.  In the very rear of the truck Khalfan described that

      20   they had, what was there was a partition of wood and metal

      21   such that the rear of the truck had two double doors that

      22   opened up, and he said if the two double doors were opened up,

      23   this partition would prevent someone from seeing into the back

      24   of the truck and seeing the bomb.

      25   Q.  After Khalfan Khamis Mohamed and the others loaded the

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       1   components onto the truck, who wired the bomb?

       2   A.  Abdul Rahman did the wiring and he was assisted by Ahmed

       3   the driver.

       4   Q.  How did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed describe the way in which

       5   Abdul Rahman worked?

       6   A.  He said that he worked with all confidence, and no notes

       7   and no books.

       8   Q.  How was the bomb wired?  What did it look like when it was

       9   wired?

      10   A.  He said they took five or six detonators per box of TNT,

      11   and that wire was run back to the batteries, and then there

      12   was wire to the front of the truck, that there was a push

      13   button in the front of the truck on the dashboard that Ahmed

      14   the driver would use to ignite the bomb, and he had to be in

      15   the truck to do that.

      16   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about how the group

      17   communicated among its members and with others?

      18   A.  Yes, we did.

      19   Q.  In particular, did you ask him whether or not there was a

      20   phone at the Magomeni house?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Was there none?

      23   A.  He said there was not.

      24   Q.  What about any phones at the Ilala house?

      25   A.  He said there were no phones at the Ilala house.

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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  How did the group communicate?

       2   A.  They used a cell phone.

       3   Q.  Who provided the cell phone?

       4   A.  Hussein had the cell phone but Khalfan said that he

       5   thought Ahmed Khalfan assisted him to get the cell phone.

       6   Q.  Who was the person that Khalfan Khamis Mohamed said

       7   primarily used the cell phone?

       8   A.  Hussein kept the cell phone in his control.

       9   Q.  Did there come a time that Hussein left before the embassy

      10   was bombed?

      11   A.  Yes, he did.

      12   Q.  When he left, who did he give, Hussein give the cell phone

      13   to?

      14   A.  He gave the cell phone to Ahmed the driver.

      15   Q.  Before Hussein left, did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate

      16   whether he ever overheard the name Saleh?

      17   A.  Yes, he did.

      18   Q.  In what context did he overhear that name?

      19   A.  When Hussein was talking on the phone with some other

      20   people he would overhear the name Saleh, and Khalfan stated

      21   when Hussein was talking with others in the group, Ahmed

      22   Khalfan, Abdul Rahman, he would hear the name Saleh mentioned.

      23   Q.  You mentioned when he left, Hussein gave the cell phone to

      24   Ahmed the driver, is that right?

      25   A.  That is correct.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed ever see Ahmed the driver use

       2   the cell phone?

       3   A.  He said that when they were there by themselves and Ahmed

       4   the driver had possession of the phone, that he was making and

       5   receiving phone calls using that cell phone up to and

       6   including the day of the bombing.

       7   Q.  When was the last time Khalfan Khamis Mohamed said he saw

       8   the cell phone?

       9   A.  He said on the morning of the bombing when Ahmed the

      10   driver got in the truck, he took that phone with him.

      11   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed was the plan was for

      12   the members of the group to depart before the bombing?

      13   A.  Yes, we did.

      14   Q.  What was the plan?

      15   A.  Hussein approached Khalfan before leaving and told him

      16   everyone was going to leave before the bomb happened and that

      17   they could not leave Ahmed the driver by himself, that he

      18   could not speak the language, someone had to stay behind, and

      19   Khalfan agreed, volunteered to stay behind with the driver.

      20   Q.  Aside from Khalfan Khamis Mohamed and the driver, did the

      21   other members leave before the bombing?

      22   A.  Yes, they did.

      23   Q.  Who was the first to leave?

      24   A.  The first was Sheikh, after he brought the truck to the

      25   Ilala house.  He brought the truck and left.

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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  Where did he go?

       2   A.  He said to Mombasa, Kenya.

       3   Q.  Who left after Sheikh?

       4   A.  Hussein left next.

       5   Q.  Where did he go?

       6   A.  He and his family took a bus to Mombasa, Kenya.

       7   Q.  After Hussein?

       8   A.  Then Fahad left.

       9   Q.  Where did Fahad go?

      10   A.  He also went to Mombasa, Kenya, on a bus.

      11   Q.  How many days before the bombing did Fahad leave?

      12   A.  He left three to four days before the bombing.

      13   Q.  What about Hussein?

      14   A.  Hussein left four to five days before the bombing.

      15   Q.  If I asked already, I'm sorry.  What about Sheikh?

      16   A.  Sheikh left 7 to 10 days before the bombing.

      17   Q.  What about Ahmed Khalfan and Abdul Rahman?

      18   A.  They left two to three days before the bombing.

      19   Q.  Before the bombing, did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to

      20   you that the person known as Ahmed the driver asked him to do

      21   something?

      22   A.  Yes, he did.

      23   Q.  What did Ahmed the driver ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed to

      24   do?

      25   A.  He wanted him to mail a package for him.

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       1   Q.  To where?

       2   A.  To Egypt.

       3   Q.  What if anything did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say he did?

       4   A.  He said that he took the package, which he said contained

       5   documents, he went to the DHL office in Dar es Salaam and

       6   mailed the package a couple days before the bombing to Egypt.

       7   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate what name he put down

       8   as the sender of the package?

       9   A.  He stated that he thought he had put his own name down.

      10   Q.  Did Mr. Mohamed describe any difficulties that he and

      11   Ahmed the driver had with the truck before the bombing?

      12   A.  Yes, he did.

      13   Q.  What were those difficulties?

      14   A.  He said that Ahmed the driver had gone out to check on the

      15   truck, make sure everything was OK.  He came back in, telling

      16   Khalfan that the truck had sunk in the sand on one side.  So

      17   he and Khalfan together worked for, he said, several hours to

      18   try to get the truck unstuck.

      19   Q.  Did they get the truck unstuck?

      20   A.  Yes, they did.

      21   Q.  How many days was this before the bombing?

      22   A.  This was a couple days before the bombing.

      23   Q.  What happened after Khalfan and Ahmed the driver got the

      24   truck unstuck in the mud?

      25   A.  Subsequent to that, Ahmed the driver came to Khalfan and

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       1   he said that in talking with the brothers he had passed on the

       2   message about the truck getting stuck and the brothers had

       3   wanted Khalfan to have a tow truck stand by on the morning of

       4   the bombing just in case it was stuck that morning.

       5   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed agree to do that?

       6   A.  Yes, he did.

       7   Q.  Did he tell you whether or not he made those arrangements?

       8   A.  He said that he made those arrangements.

       9   Q.  What time of day did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say that the

      10   bomb was supposed to go off?

      11   A.  By 10:00 -- they were going to leave at 10:00.

      12   Q.  This was what day?

      13   A.  August 7, 1998.

      14   Q.  When you say they were going to leave, who is they?

      15   A.  Ahmed the driver got into the driver's side of the truck

      16   and Khalfan Khamis Mohamed got into the passenger side of the

      17   truck.

      18   Q.  Where was the truck when they left?

      19   A.  The truck was still at the Ilala house.

      20   Q.  When did the truck go when they left?

      21   A.  He said the truck pulled out, and as you pull out of the

      22   Ilala house there is a canteen to the right.  So they drove

      23   past the canteen and headed to Uhuru Street.

      24   Q.  What happened at the truck got to Uhuru Street?

      25   A.  At that point the truck stopped, Khalfan got out of the

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   truck, and he said he watched as Ahmed the driver took a right

       2   towards Mandella Road.

       3   Q.  Where did Khalfan go?

       4   A.  He returned to the Ilala house.

       5   Q.  What did Khalfan do when he got back to the Ilala house?

       6   A.  He said that he went back to the Ilala house and prayed

       7   for a very long time for Ahmed the driver, and he waited to

       8   hear the sound of the explosion.

       9   Q.  Did he hear the sound of the explosion?

      10   A.  He did not.

      11   Q.  Then what did he do?

      12   A.  He was getting very concerned, so he started listening to

      13   the radio to see if he could hear a report of the explosion,

      14   and he did not hear a report of the explosion on the radio

      15   either.

      16   Q.  So then what did he do?

      17   A.  Then he started watching television to see if he would

      18   hear a report of the explosion, and at that point he said that

      19   he did see on the television that the explosion had happened.

      20   Q.  Did he tell you how he felt when he saw the explosion had

      21   happened?

      22   A.  He did.  He said he was very happy.

      23   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed how he felt when he

      24   learned that only nine Americans had died in the blast?

      25   A.  He said that he was not sorry for that.

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       1            THE COURT:  I am sorry.  I didn't hear you.

       2            THE WITNESS:  He said he was not sorry for that.

       3   Q.  You mentioned earlier that one of Khalfan Khamis Mohamed's

       4   responsibilities was to take care of the housing.  Was there

       5   any other responsibility that went along with that?

       6   A.  Could you repeat the question.

       7   Q.  Sure.  Was he responsible for anything else in connection

       8   with the house aside from obtaining it?

       9   A.  He was.  At the end he stated that because the house was

      10   his full responsibility, part of that responsibility included

      11   cleaning the house before he left.  He cleaned the house and

      12   he said he put the items that he cleaned up into a garbage can

      13   in the back.

      14   Q.  After he put the items into a garbage bin in the back,

      15   what else did he do?

      16   A.  Then he said he contacted his nephew Sleyyum.

      17   Q.  What did he say to his nephew?

      18   A.  He said he asked his nephew to remove some items from the

      19   house.

      20   Q.  What did he want his nephew Sleyyum to remove from the

      21   house?

      22   A.  He said there was the grinder, some kitchen utensils,

      23   mattresses, curtains, child's toilet.

      24   Q.  Was there a suitcase?

      25   A.  And there was a suitcase.

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       1   Q.  What did he ask his nephew to do with these items?

       2   A.  He wanted his nephew specifically with regard to the

       3   grinder to take the grinder to his sister Rahma's house and

       4   have her provide them to their mother.

       5   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed provide any specific

       6   instructions with respect to the grinder?

       7   A.  Yes, he did.

       8   Q.  What were those instructions?

       9   A.  He said that he wanted to make sure that Sleyyum passed

      10   the message to his sister to clean the grinder thoroughly

      11   because it was used for unclean things.

      12   Q.  Agent Perkins, I am going to approach with what has been

      13   premarked for identification as Government's Exhibit 1058 and

      14   ask that you take a look at it.  Do you recognize that

      15   exhibit?

      16   A.  Yes, I do.

      17   Q.  What is that?

      18   A.  This is a copy of a photograph that was shown to Khalfan

      19   of a piece of luggage.

      20   Q.  Can you tell us whether or not Khalfan recognized that

      21   piece of luggage?

      22   A.  He did.  He said that he recognized it as a piece of

      23   luggage that he gave to his nephew Sleyyum.

      24            MR. KARAS:  At this time we offer Exhibit 1058.

      25            MR. STERN:  No objection.

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       1            THE COURT:  Received.

       2            (Government's Exhibit 1058 received in evidence)

       3            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 1058, please.

       4   Q.  Down at the bottom where it says Khalfan Khamis Mohamed,

       5   whose writing is that?

       6   A.  That is his signature at the bottom and Mike Forsee put

       7   the date.

       8   Q.  Did you talk to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about his efforts

       9   to obtain a passport?

      10   A.  Yes, we did.

      11   Q.  What did he tell you was the first thing he did in his

      12   efforts to obtain the passport?

      13   A.  He said that he knew, because he didn't have a secondary

      14   school certificate that he needed to find one, and he knew a

      15   friend of one of his brothers Rubeya, he went to his brother's

      16   friend Zahran Nassor Maulid requested a secondary school

      17   certificate.

      18   Q.  Did he get the school certificate?

      19   A.  Yes, he did.

      20   Q.  Did he get any other documents from Zahran Nassor Maulid?

      21   A.  Yes.  He then requested Zahran to provide him with his

      22   birth certificate.

      23   Q.  With Zahran's?

      24   A.  With Zahran's own birth certificate, yes.

      25   Q.  Did Zahran Nassor Maulid indicate whether he got that

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       1   birth certificate?

       2   A.  He did.

       3   Q.  Agent Perkins, I am going to approach with what has been

       4   marked for identification as Government's Exhibit 1061 and ask

       5   you to take a look at it.  Can you tell us what that document

       6   is?

       7   A.  This is a copy of a birth certificate in the name of

       8   Zahran Nassor Maulid that was shown to Khalfan during the

       9   course of the interview.

      10   Q.  Did he recognize that?

      11   A.  Yes, he did.

      12   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you what if any

      13   changes he caused to be made to that certificate?

      14   A.  Yes, he did.  He said that he had requested Zahran to make

      15   three changes that he recalled.

      16   Q.  What were those changes?

      17   A.  He requested Zahran to change the tribe of the father to

      18   Shargi and the occupation of the father to businessman and the

      19   name of the mother to Khalfan's true mother's name.

      20   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed sign that copy of the birth

      21   certificate for you?

      22   A.  Yes, he did.

      23            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer Exhibit

      24   1061.

      25            MR. STERN:  No objection.

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       1            THE COURT:  Received.

       2            (Government's Exhibit 1061 received in evidence)

       3            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 1061.

       4   Q.  Where the changes are made, what did Khalfan Khamis

       5   Mohamed do?

       6   A.  He initialed the places where the changes were made.

       7   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you about any other

       8   documents he received from Zahran Nassor Maulid?

       9   A.  Yes, he did.

      10   Q.  What were those documents?

      11   A.  He said that he also requested two birth certificates in

      12   the names of Usama and Sumaiyya, his brother Mohamed's

      13   children.

      14   Q.  Agent Perkins, I am going to approach with what have been

      15   marked for identification as Government's Exhibits 1062A and B

      16   and ask you to take a look at them.  Can you tell us what

      17   those two documents are?

      18   A.  These are copies of two birth certificates, one in the

      19   name of Usama and one in the name of Sumaiyya, that were shown

      20   to Khalfan during the course of the interview.

      21   Q.  Did he recognize those as the documents that he had

      22   obtained from Zahran?

      23   A.  Yes, he did.

      24            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we offer 1062A and B.

      25            THE COURT:  Received.

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       1            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.

       2            THE COURT:  Received.

       3            (Government's Exhibits 1062A and 1062B received in

       4   evidence)

       5   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you whether or not he had

       6   applied for a passport in the name of Zahran Nassor Maulid?

       7   A.  Yes, he did.

       8   Q.  Who if anyone helped him with that application?

       9   A.  He claimed that he didn't remember the name of the person

      10   who helped him.

      11   Q.  Agent Perkins, I am going to approach with what has been

      12   marked Government's Exhibit 1059 for identification and ask

      13   you to take a look at that.  Can you tell us what that

      14   document is?

      15   A.  This is a copy of a passport application in the name

      16   Zahran Nassor Maulid containing Khalfan Khamis Mohamed's

      17   photograph.

      18   Q.  Did you show that document to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed?

      19   A.  Yes, we did.

      20   Q.  Did he tell you that he signed that document?

      21   A.  Yes, he did.

      22            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we offer 1059.

      23            THE COURT:  Received.

      24            (Government's Exhibit 1059 received in evidence)

      25   Q.  What if anything did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you about

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       1   his efforts to flee Kenya after the bombing?  What is the

       2   first thing he did?

       3   A.  On the morning of the bomb he had actually gone to buy a

       4   bus ticket to leave.

       5   Q.  Did he attempt to obtain any travel documents to go to

       6   other countries?

       7   A.  Yes, he did.

       8   Q.  Where did he attempt to get a visa?

       9   A.  He said that a week before the bombing he went to the

      10   Yemeni Embassy and attempted to get a Yemeni visa, and about

      11   two days before the bombing he went to the South African

      12   Embassy to get a South African visa.

      13   Q.  In what names did he receive the visas?

      14   A.  In the name Zahran Nasser Maulid.

      15   Q.  Where did he decide to go after the bombing?

      16   A.  He went to South Africa.

      17            MR. KARAS:  If we could display what is in evidence

      18   as Government's Exhibit 1057, please.

      19   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you how it was that he got

      20   from Dar es Salaam to South Africa?

      21   A.  Yes.  He said that he took a took a bus to the border of

      22   Tanzania and Mozambique, passed through Mozambique, and then

      23   on to South Africa.

      24   Q.  When did he leave Dar es Salaam?

      25   A.  He left Dar es Salaam on August 8, the day after the

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       1   bombing.

       2   Q.  Where in South Africa did he go?

       3   A.  In Capetown, South Africa.

       4   Q.  What did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed do with respect to his

       5   immigration status when he arrived?

       6   A.  He said when he got to South Africa, the only way that he

       7   could assure his ability to stay there would be to file for

       8   political asylum there.

       9   Q.  During the interview did you also show Khalfan Khamis

      10   Mohamed other documents that you understood to have been taken

      11   from his residence in South Africa?

      12   A.  Yes, we did.

      13   Q.  I am going to approach with what has been marked for

      14   identification as Government's Exhibits 1065A and B.  Are

      15   those two documents that you showed to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed?

      16   A.  Yes, they are.

      17   Q.  Did he recognize some of the items that were on those

      18   documents?

      19   A.  Yes, he did.

      20            MR. KARAS:  At this time we offer Government's

      21   Exhibits 1065A and 1065B.

      22            MR. STERN:  No objection.

      23            THE COURT:  Received.

      24            (Government's Exhibits 1065A and 1065B received in

      25   evidence)

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       1            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 1065A, please.

       2   Q.  Agent Perkins, do you see where there are letters A, B, C

       3   and D circled?

       4   A.  Yes, I do.

       5   Q.  Who put those there?

       6   A.  Special Agent Forsee did.

       7   Q.  Starting with the document near the circled letter A, the

       8   document entitled "Things to do," do you see that?

       9   A.  Yes, I do.

      10   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed what those numbers

      11   were?

      12   A.  Yes, we did.  He said that there were telephone numbers,

      13   and written to the right of them were names written in the

      14   Arabic.

      15   Q.  Who gave him those numbers?

      16   A.  Khalfan said that Ahmed Khalfan had returned from a trip

      17   to Kenya, and when he got back he had this piece of paper with

      18   the telephone numbers on them.  He said that Saleh had asked

      19   Ahmed Khalfan to pass these numbers to Khalfan and tell him if

      20   at any point he needed help, these were the people that would

      21   receive them.

      22   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed what the word to the

      23   right there meant?

      24   A.  Yes.  Next to the number 219036, he said written in Arabic

      25   next to that was the name Abdul Rahman.

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       1   Q.  The number below that, 415923, did he tell you what the

       2   word next to that meant?

       3   A.  He said he could not read that name.

       4   Q.  And the third number, 0321215257, did Khalfan Khamis

       5   Mohamed tell you about the word next to that number?

       6   A.  He did.  He said that was the name Nadim in Arabic.

       7   Q.  The first two numbers, where were they located, according

       8   to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed?

       9   A.  He said the first two were numbers in Yemen.  The third

      10   was a number in Pakistan.

      11   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed if he ever tried to

      12   contact those numbers?

      13   A.  Yes, we did.

      14   Q.  What did he say?

      15   A.  He said that he had in fact tried to call these numbers.

      16   Q.  Did he try to call the first number?

      17   A.  He did.  He said that on one occasion in June of '99, that

      18   he tried 219036 and he identified himself as Khalfan from

      19   Tanzania and said that Saleh had asked him to call and he

      20   asked for Abdel Rahman.  The person who answered the phone

      21   said that they were Abdel Rahman, and basically what do you

      22   want or what do you need, and at that point the phone cut off.

      23   Q.  Why did the phone cut off?

      24   A.  He said that he only had a 20-rand phone card and the

      25   money ran off the card.

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       1   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed why he called the

       2   219036 number?

       3   A.  Yes, we did, and we asked him basically were you in some

       4   kind of trouble, is that why you were calling these numbers,

       5   and he said no, I just wanted to see if they worked, and he

       6   checked to see if they worked and that was all he needed to

       7   do.

       8   Q.  By the way, 1065B, can you tell us what is written on

       9   1065B?

      10   A.  1065B is, he had requested the Yemeni code numbers,

      11   telephone code numbers, and they are written there, Aden

      12   and --

      13   Q.  I am sorry, the Exhibit 1065B.

      14   A.  I am sorry.  This was a copy of another document that I

      15   was told had been recovered from his possession in his

      16   residence in Capetown.  These were the same two numbers that

      17   had been on the "things to do" sheet, numbers 1 and 2.  He

      18   said those were the same numbers written backwards.

      19   Q.  If we could display 1065A again.  If we could focus in on

      20   the "things to do" sheet.

      21            Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed if he tried to

      22   contact the other two telephone numbers listed there?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  What did he say happened?

      25   A.  He said that he had attempted to call the other two

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       1   numbers as well but neither one went through.

       2   Q.  If we could focus in on the item marked C on that page.

       3   Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about the information

       4   contained next to the letter C there?

       5   A.  Yes, we did.

       6   Q.  What did he say?

       7   A.  He said that this was a false name that he was trying to

       8   create for himself to get a South African identification with

       9   the date of birth, false date of birth, and the address at the

      10   bottom was the address where this false identification could

      11   be mailed to.

      12   Q.  Agent Perkins, I am going to approach with what has been

      13   marked for identification as Government's Exhibit 1064 and ask

      14   that you take a look at it.

      15            Is that another document that you showed to Khalfan

      16   Khamis Mohamed during your interview?

      17   A.  Yes, it is.

      18   Q.  Can you tell us whether or not he recognized what was on

      19   that document?

      20   A.  He did.  He said this was the name of a person that had

      21   been given to him and two contact numbers, an individual who

      22   could get false documents, travel documents if he needed to

      23   get out of the country.

      24            MR. KARAS:  At this time we offer Government's

      25   Exhibit 1064.

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       1            MR. STERN:  No objections.

       2            THE COURT:  Received.

       3            (Government's Exhibit 1064 received in evidence)

       4            MR. KARAS:  And if we could display it.

       5   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you who Mr. Nico was?

       6   A.  Yes.  This is what I was referencing, that he was a person

       7   to contact for false documents.

       8   Q.  Was that in Tanzania or in South Africa?

       9   A.  That was in South Africa.

      10   Q.  Next, Agent Perkins, I am going to show you what is

      11   premarked for identification as 1066C.  Can you tell us

      12   whether or not that is a document that you showed to Khalfan

      13   Khamis Mohamed?

      14   A.  Yes, it is.

      15   Q.  Can you tell us whether or not he recognized it?

      16   A.  Yes, he did.

      17            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer

      18   Government's Exhibit 1066C.

      19            THE COURT:  Received.

      20            (Government's Exhibit 1066C received in evidence)

      21            MR. KARAS:  And if we could display 1066C.  If we

      22   could focus in on the area next to the circled letter A.

      23   Q.  Once again, Agent Perkins, who put the circled letters

      24   there, A, B and C on that document?

      25   A.  Agent Forsee did that.

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       1   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about the information

       2   contained next to the letter A?

       3   A.  Yes, we did.

       4   Q.  What did he say?

       5   A.  He said that this S. Sibongle, and there was a bank

       6   account number, that was a bank account that if he needed

       7   money sent to, they could put it in the bank account for him.

       8   Q.  Do you see the number at the top, 032121522567?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  Do you recognize that number from some other document?

      11   A.  Yes, I do.

      12   Q.  What is that number?

      13   A.  This is the third number on that list of three numbers,

      14   the things to do from the top.  The third number was from

      15   Pakistan.

      16   Q.  I am going to approach with what has been marked for

      17   identification as Government's Exhibit 1060 and ask that you

      18   take a look at it.  Can you tell us what Government's Exhibit

      19   1060 is?

      20   A.  Yes.  This is a copy of a letter that was shown -- it is

      21   written in Swahili -- that was shown to Khalfan Khamis during

      22   the course of the interview.

      23   Q.  What is your understanding where that letter came from?

      24   A.  This was taken at a search at 213 Ilala.

      25   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed state whether he recognized

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       1   that letter?

       2   A.  Yes he stated that he did.

       3            MR. KARAS:  At this time we offer Government's

       4   Exhibit 1060.

       5            MR. STERN:  No objection.

       6            THE COURT:  Received.

       7            (Government's Exhibit 1060 received in evidence)

       8   Q.  What is your understanding what language that letter is

       9   written in?

      10   A.  It is written in Swahili.

      11   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed to translate and

      12   summarize that letter for you?

      13   A.  Yes, we asked for a rough translation of it.

      14   Q.  What did he say was the gist of that letter?

      15   A.  He said that he was trying to contact his brother Nasser

      16   in Canada and he wanted his brother Nasser to pass a message

      17   to his brother Mohamed who lived in London.  He was basically

      18   referencing the difficulty that he was having in getting a

      19   visa.  So we asked him where was he getting his visa, what was

      20   he talking about what difficulty he was having.  He said that

      21   he was trying to get a Pakistani visa and he wanted to pass a

      22   message to his brother Mohamed that he was traveling from

      23   Tanzania to Pakistan.

      24   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about the date

      25   referenced at the top and what appears to be the date

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       1   referenced in the text of the letter?

       2   A.  Yes, we did.  We asked him whether the date written at the

       3   top 6/7/98, what date that was, and he said it was July 6 of

       4   '98, an indication of when he had written the letter.

       5   Q.  What did he say about the date that appears in the text of

       6   the letter?

       7   A.  The date in the text is written 8/6/98.  So we asked him

       8   what that date would have referenced, and he said because the

       9   date at the top was July and if you looked at the date at the

      10   bottom it would be June, and before he would have written a

      11   letter that he may have meant August 6 of '98 when he

      12   referenced that date in the letter.

      13   Q.  In Tanzania, when they want to indicate a date, say, for

      14   example, today's date, March 19, 2001, how would they indicate

      15   that with the slashes?

      16   A.  They would do the day first, then the month, then the

      17   year.

      18   Q.  Was there a reference in that letter, according to Khalfan

      19   Khamis Mohamed, about those guys?

      20   A.  Yes.  We asked him what he meant by a reference to telling

      21   those guys.

      22   Q.  What did he say about those guys?

      23   A.  He claimed to us that he didn't know what he meant by

      24   those guys.

      25   Q.  Agent Perkins, during the course of your discussions with

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       1   Khalfan Khamis Mohamed did the topic of Usama Bin Laden come

       2   up?

       3   A.  Yes, it did.  It came up several times during the course

       4   of the interview.

       5   Q.  Generally speaking, what if anything did Khalfan Khamis

       6   Mohamed say about Bin Laden as a leader?

       7   A.  He described him as a sheik, a scholar and a leader.

       8   Q.  What if anything did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed say about his

       9   perception of the relationship between Bin Laden and the group

      10   he was a part of in Dar es Salaam?

      11   A.  He stated that he knew that people in Usama Bin Laden's

      12   group were supportive of people in their group, and he said

      13   that based on the fact that those two groups have the same

      14   beliefs, that he in fact considered himself as well as the

      15   others in the group in Dar es Salaam to be part of Usama Bin

      16   Laden's group.

      17   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed indicate to you whether or not

      18   he knew the name of Bin Laden's group?

      19   A.  He did not.

      20   Q.  Did he indicate to you whether or not he ever met Usama

      21   Bin Laden?

      22   A.  He stated that he did not.

      23   Q.  Did you talk to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about the views of

      24   others in the Dar es Salaam group with respect to Bin Laden?

      25   A.  Yes, we did.

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       1   Q.  What did he tell you?

       2   A.  He told us that he knew, that he had discussed that

       3   Hussein had said that Usama Bin Laden, he respected him,

       4   Hussein respected his beliefs, and he said that he thought

       5   Hussein had actually met Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan, and

       6   he said that possibly Hussein's beliefs about Usama Bin Laden

       7   had made him do what he did with regard to the bombing.

       8   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed if he was aware of any

       9   fatwahs issued by Usama Bin Laden?

      10   A.  He stated that he was not aware.

      11   Q.  Did you ask him whether he was aware of Bin Laden's views

      12   towards America?

      13   A.  Yes.

      14   Q.  What did he say?

      15   A.  That he understood from BBC, CNN, that sort of thing, that

      16   Usama Bin Laden disliked America.

      17   Q.  Can you tell us whether or not Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

      18   considered himself to be part of a jihad?

      19   A.  Yes, he did.

      20   Q.  Did he tell you what he perceived Bin Laden to be in terms

      21   of whether or not he was a leader of that jihad?

      22   A.  He stated, and this was near the end of the interview in

      23   terms of talking about Usama Bin Laden, he said that Usama Bin

      24   Laden is our leader in jihad.

      25   Q.  During the course of your interview with Khalfan Khamis

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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       1   Mohamed, did you ask him what he would do if given the choice

       2   between going to Tanzania and the United States from South

       3   Africa?

       4   A.  Yes, he did.

       5   Q.  What did he say?

       6   A.  He responded two times, take me to America.

       7   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about why he

       8   participated in the bombing of the American Embassy?

       9   A.  Yes, we did.

      10   Q.  What did he say?

      11   A.  He said that based on his study of Islam, he felt it was

      12   his obligation and duty to kill Americans.

      13   Q.  Did he tell you when his views towards America began to

      14   form?

      15   A.  Yes, He did.

      16   Q.  When was that?

      17   A.  He said when he went to training camp in Afghanistan in

      18   1994.

      19   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed whether he considered

      20   the bombing of the embassy a success?

      21   A.  He said that it was a success.

      22   Q.  Why?

      23   A.  He said because it sent a message to America that bombings

      24   were the only way that America would listen and that it also

      25   kept the Americans busy investigating.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed give you any examples about

       2   American policy or the American presence in a world that made

       3   him angry at America?

       4   A.  He did.  He said that America is a superpower and as a

       5   superpower they have the ability to change things or control

       6   certain things, and he specifically referenced Palestine.  He

       7   said if America wanted to make peace there they could, and

       8   they choose not to.

       9   Q.  Did he give any other examples about American policy that

      10   angered him?

      11   A.  He did.  He discussed the fact that he really didn't like

      12   the fact that soldiers were in Saudi Arabia, in the Holy Land.

      13   Q.  What did he tell you he thought his duty was with respect

      14   to the soldiers in the Holy Land?

      15   A.  He said that it was duty to kill the soldiers.

      16   Q.  And if he couldn't kill the soldiers?

      17   A.  He said because the soldiers were such a hard target to

      18   get to, that they then targeted the US government, including

      19   embassies and other US government buildings.

      20   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you why it was important

      21   for Americans to understand his motivation behind these

      22   attacks?

      23   A.  Yes, he did.

      24   Q.  What did he say?

      25   A.  He said that he wanted America to understand that these

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                                  Perkins - direct

       1   Muslims weren't crazy, gun-wielding Muslims but they were in

       2   fact working for a purpose.

       3   Q.  Did you ask him how he felt about the fact that no

       4   Americans died in the bombing?

       5   A.  Yes, we did.

       6   Q.  What did he say?

       7   A.  He said that he was basically not sorry that Tanzanians

       8   were killed, that it was described as basically part of doing

       9   the job.

      10   Q.  What did he say he thought would happen to the Tanzanians

      11   that were killed in the bombing?

      12   A.  He stated that Allah would take care of them.

      13   Q.  Did Khalfan Khamis Mohamed tell you what he would have

      14   done had you not caught him?

      15   A.  Yes, he did.

      16   Q.  What did he say?

      17   A.  He said he would have continued in his efforts to kill

      18   Americans, including being involved in bombings.

      19   Q.  Did you ask Khalfan Khamis Mohamed about what his hope was

      20   even after he had been caught?

      21   A.  Yes, we did.

      22   Q.  What was that?

      23   A.  He said that because he had been caught he hoped that

      24   others carried on and that he would carry on if he could.

      25            MR. KARAS:  Thank you.  No further questions.

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                                  Perkins - direct

       1            THE COURT:  We will take our midafternoon recess.

       2            (Recess)

       3            THE COURT:  Cross-examination?  Mr. Stern on behalf

       4   of defendant K.K. Mohamed.

       5            MR. STERN:  Thank you.

       6   CROSS-EXAMINATION

       7   BY MR. STERN:

       8   Q.  Good afternoon, Agent Perkins.

       9   A.  Good afternoon.

      10   Q.  The bombing in Dar es Salaam happened October 7, 1998; is

      11   that right?

      12   A.  August 7.

      13   Q.  I am sorry.

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  When did you first become involved in the investigation?

      16   A.  I was one of the first agents sent over.

      17   Q.  So from very shortly after August 7 up until today you

      18   have been involved with this case, have you not?

      19   A.  That is correct.

      20   Q.  You almost immediately began looking for information that

      21   would help you solve the case, correct?

      22   A.  That is correct.

      23   Q.  In order to do that, you went to Tanzania, right?

      24   A.  At some point, yes.

      25   Q.  While you were in Tanzania, you visited the site of the

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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   embassy, correct?

       2   A.  That is correct.

       3   Q.  At some point you visited 213 Ilala, right?

       4   A.  That's correct.

       5   Q.  At some point you went to Zanzibar?

       6   A.  Yes, I did.

       7   Q.  You did these things with other agents?

       8   A.  Right.

       9   Q.  Sometimes you had a job, sometimes other agents had a job

      10   to do?

      11   A.  That's right.

      12   Q.  You kept up with the information other agents were

      13   gathering as well as the information you were gathering,

      14   right?

      15   A.  That's correct.

      16   Q.  Because one of your jobs was to have an overview of the

      17   whole case, true?

      18   A.  That's correct.

      19   Q.  When you went to Ilala, you went to 213, didn't you?

      20   A.  Yes, I did.

      21   Q.  You know how long a trip it is from 213 Ilala up to Uhuru

      22   Road?

      23   A.  Generally, yes.

      24   Q.  I don't mean in miles but how long it would take, about,

      25   to go to Uhuru Road.

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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   A.  The road kind of winds around as you drive past before the

       2   canteen, winds around to the left and winds to the right, and

       3   from what I recall takes a left and at some point intersects

       4   up the road with Uhuru Road.

       5   Q.  Those are directions.  I am asking how long it takes to

       6   make the trip you just described?

       7   A.  Not having driven it and paid attention to the time, I

       8   would hate to guess.

       9   Q.  Would minutes be a fair estimate?

      10   A.  It depends how many minutes you are talking about, I

      11   guess.

      12   Q.  Less than 10?

      13   A.  Probably around that ballpark, maybe a little more than

      14   that.

      15   Q.  How about the trip from Uhuru Road to where the U.S.

      16   Embassy was?  Did you ever make that trip?

      17   A.  Sure.

      18   Q.  It is fair to say that is a much longer trip than from 213

      19   to Uhuru Road, isn't it?

      20   A.  That is correct.

      21   Q.  About how long do you think it would take to go from Uhuru

      22   Road up to Oyster Bay where the U.S. Embassy was?

      23   A.  That would be hard to predict.  It is kind of like talking

      24   about driving in New York City, getting from one point to

      25   another.  Depending on traffic, it could be anything.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   Q.  Why don't you give me a minimum and a maximum?

       2   A.  I wouldn't be able to guess that.

       3   Q.  When you made the trip, how long did it take you?

       4   A.  I didn't pay attention.

       5   Q.  Would you say it took more than twice the time it took to

       6   get from 213 to Uhuru Road?

       7   A.  I didn't pay attention.

       8   Q.  So you have no idea how long it takes?

       9   A.  I can't tell you how long it takes, yes.

      10   Q.  When you went to Zanzibar, you went to gather information

      11   about this case; is that right?

      12   A.  Yes.

      13   Q.  Specifically, you knew that Khalfan Khamis Mohamed was

      14   from Zanzibar, right?

      15   A.  Yes, I did.

      16   Q.  You went to see people from his family there?

      17   A.  That is correct.

      18   Q.  You tried to get information about where he was, didn't

      19   you?

      20   A.  That is true.

      21   Q.  So you spoke with his mom?

      22   A.  Yes, I did.

      23   Q.  His brother Rubeya?

      24   A.  Yes, I did.

      25   Q.  His sister Zuhura?

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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   A.  She was not in Zanzibar.  I talked to her in Dar es

       2   Salaam.

       3   Q.  His sister Nadim?

       4   A.  Twin sister, yes.

       5   Q.  Another sister who lives in another village, right?

       6   A.  That's right.

       7   Q.  You saw the way people lived in Zanzibar, correct?

       8   A.  Yes, I did.

       9   Q.  It is fair to say that Kidimni, the village where most of

      10   his family lives, is a very small village, isn't it?

      11   A.  Relatively small, yes.

      12   Q.  Small huts and cement block houses?

      13   A.  That's correct.

      14   Q.  The streets are all dirt, right?

      15   A.  That is correct.

      16   Q.  Primarily people are engaged in agriculture of one sort or

      17   another, right?

      18   A.  That appeared to be true, yes.

      19   Q.  It is hard to even tell where is a field and where is the

      20   jungle, isn't it?

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  In addition to that, that is, going to Kidimne and

      23   interviewing his family, you interviewed various witnesses in

      24   an attempt to get both information about what had happened and

      25   the whereabouts of the people who had done this, right?

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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   A.  That is correct.

       2   Q.  Again, other people were also interviewing witnesses but

       3   you were keeping on top of what they were doing as well,

       4   weren't you?

       5   A.  That was part of my job, yes.

       6   Q.  Even after Mr. Mohamed was arrested you continued to

       7   follow whatever leads you could, right?

       8   A.  I would to this day, yes.

       9   Q.  The case didn't end with his arrest on the 7th of October.

      10   A.  There are others that we are still looking for.

      11   Q.  You got information at some point that he was in South

      12   Africa, right?

      13   A.  That's correct.

      14   Q.  When you got that information you of course went to South

      15   Africa?

      16   A.  Yes, I did.

      17   Q.  Did you go to South Africa on a commercial plane?

      18   A.  Yes, I did.

      19   Q.  Were there other passengers on the plane not involved with

      20   this case?

      21   A.  Yes, there was.

      22   Q.  How about when you came back?  Was that on a commercial

      23   plane?

      24            MR. KARAS:  Objection, 401.

      25            THE COURT:  Yes, sustained.

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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   Q.  You went with other agents, right?

       2   A.  At what point?

       3   Q.  When you went to interview him in South Africa?

       4   A.  Yes, I traveled with some others.

       5   Q.  Representatives of the Justice Department traveled with

       6   you?

       7   A.  On the trip over?

       8   Q.  Were there at some point while you were there.

       9   A.  Were there -- I am sorry.

      10   Q.  You went to South Africa, right?

      11   A.  Yes, I was.

      12   Q.  You were there in order to speak with Mohamed and maybe to

      13   arrest him?

      14   A.  That is correct.

      15   Q.  And at some point while you were there in South Africa

      16   there were also representatives from the Justice Department,

      17   weren't there?

      18   A.  In South Africa for a short period, yes.

      19   Q.  And a doctor was there too, right?

      20   A.  There was a doctor on the plane that came over, yes.

      21   Q.  He was there to make sure that Khalfan Mohamed wasn't hurt

      22   in any way, wasn't he?

      23   A.  That doctor was there to check his condition before he

      24   left South Africa, yes.

      25   Q.  When it came time to speak with him, you were eager to

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   have him speak with you, weren't you?

       2   A.  I was hoping he would speak to us.

       3   Q.  In your experience as an agent, you know that statements

       4   made by people accused of crimes are often very useful, aren't

       5   they?

       6   A.  Yes, they are.

       7   Q.  You know that they are powerful evidence in court, right?

       8   A.  Yes, they are.

       9   Q.  You know that if things people say are corroborated by

      10   other evidence, they become even more powerful, right?

      11   A.  That is true.

      12   Q.  You also know that sometimes from talking with people you

      13   can get new leads, new information that leads you to other

      14   places that you may not have known before, right?

      15   A.  That can happen, yes.

      16   Q.  So when you went there, one of your goals was if possible

      17   to arrest him, fair?

      18   A.  That is true.

      19   Q.  But another was to get a statement from him if you could

      20   legally, right?

      21   A.  If he chose to speak with me, yes.

      22   Q.  So when you met him on the 5th of October, you did all the

      23   things you were legally obligated to do, didn't you?

      24   A.  What I thought was legal, yes.

      25   Q.  You made all his rights clear to him, right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   A.  Yes.

       2   Q.  After doing that and after making sure that it was clear

       3   that he understood what you were saying to him, he said I will

       4   talk, didn't he?

       5   A.  Yes, he did.

       6   Q.  He didn't make any demands on you, right?

       7   A.  No, he did not.

       8   Q.  He didn't say give me a bargain and I will talk to you,

       9   right?

      10   A.  No.

      11   Q.  He just said I will talk to you, I understand all these

      12   things, I have a right to a lawyer, all these things, but I

      13   will talk to you unconditionally.

      14   A.  Yes, he did.

      15   Q.  You weren't authorized to make him any specific promises

      16   when you spoke with him, were you?

      17   A.  No, I was not.

      18   Q.  No one authorized you to make any promises, for example,

      19   about what sentence he might receive.

      20   A.  No, sir.

      21   Q.  But you did make him one promise, didn't you?

      22   A.  We told him that if he chose to speak to us, that was

      23   something we would share with the court and the prosecutor.

      24   Q.  Did he ask you what you meant by that?

      25   A.  He did not.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   Q.  Did he ask you what benefit that would be to him?

       2   A.  We told him we could promise him no benefit, so no, he

       3   didn't ask.

       4   Q.  So he just talked to you in spite of the fact that you

       5   that you had told him there was no real benefit, right?

       6   A.  That's right.

       7   Q.  At the time you went and spoke with him -- and I am still

       8   talking about South Africa now, between the 5th and 7th of

       9   October -- you had already gotten statements from a number of

      10   witnesses in Dar es Salaam, hadn't you?

      11   A.  I had taken reports, right, I had done interviews.

      12   Q.  And if not you personally, you had read reports other

      13   people had taken.

      14   A.  That is correct.

      15   Q.  And number of people you know testified in this trial,

      16   right?

      17   A.  A number of the people that I took statements from.

      18   Q.  Yes, in Dar es Salaam.

      19   A.  Yes, that is correct.

      20   Q.  So, for example, you remember a young man whose name was

      21   Thabit Sadaalli?

      22   A.  Thabit Sadaalli.

      23   Q.  Who worked at the Al Morogoro Hotel.

      24   A.  Yes.

      25   Q.  You spoke with him before you ever spoke to Mr. Mohamed,

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   right?

       2   A.  That's correct.

       3   Q.  And the welder, I think his name was Julius Kisingo?

       4   A.  Yes.

       5   Q.  You spoke with him before you ever spoke with Mr. Mohamed?

       6   A.  That is true.

       7   Q.  Amina Rashid, who said she was a house girl, you spoke

       8   with her before you ever spoke with Mr. Mohamed.

       9   A.  That is true.

      10   Q.  Do you know the other people who have testified in this

      11   trial?

      12   A.  From Tanzania --

      13   Q.  Are you aware who they are?

      14   A.  From Tanzania?

      15   Q.  Yes.

      16   A.  Yes.

      17   Q.  Had you spoken to all those witnesses before you ever

      18   spoke to Mr. Mohamed?

      19   A.  Do you have a list of the names?

      20   Q.  I can read them to you, if you like.

      21   A.  Sure.

      22   Q.  The three I read you.  Abdulwahdi Ahmed Salum.

      23   A.  I had spoken to him at least once.

      24   Q.  He is the person who helped find the apartment, right?

      25   A.  He leased to Khalfan Khamis, yes.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   Q.  Ally Said?

       2   A.  I had spoken to him, yes.

       3   Q.  Who was the owner of that building, right?

       4   A.  Abdallah Hamisi Salim.

       5   Q.  I guess he was a juice cafe owner.

       6   A.  That is correct.  I had spoken with him.

       7   Q.  Mohamed Selemani Chatwanda, the broker.

       8   A.  I never actually interviewed Mohamed Selemani.

       9   Q.  You know if he had been interviewed by anyone else?

      10   A.  Yes, he had.

      11   Q.  Before you spoke to Mr. Mohamed?

      12   A.  That's correct.

      13   Q.  Mohamed Muslim Salum?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  Zahran Maulid.

      16   A.  Yes, I did.

      17   Q.  All of those people had given you information before you

      18   ever sat down in early October and spoke to Mr. Mohamed,

      19   right?

      20   A.  That is correct.

      21   Q.  You had also seen the results of tests done for

      22   explosives, right?

      23   A.  Yes, I had.

      24   Q.  And you had seen receipts for 213 Ilala, for the Suzuki,

      25   right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                   Perkins - cross

       1   A.  That is correct.

       2            (Continued on next page)

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                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1   Q.  So at the time at which you spoke to Mr. Mohamed you had

       2   quite a bit of information at your disposal, didn't you?

       3   A.  Yes, sir, I did.

       4   Q.  But you didn't tell him what information you had, right?

       5   A.  At what point do you mean?

       6   Q.  Well, did you say to him, for example, Harun tells us that

       7   he helped you get a passport?

       8   A.  I wouldn't tell him what another witness had told me.

       9   Q.  Right.  You would wait and see what he told you, right?

      10   A.  He was shown certain things.  I presume from the things in

      11   the items that we had shown him the documents and things that

      12   he knew we knew certain things.

      13   Q.  Right.  But you never told him the information you had

      14   from other witnesses, did you?

      15   A.  I wouldn't tell him that information, no.

      16   Q.  And you didn't tell him that information?

      17   A.  I did not.

      18   Q.  Now, while you were talking to him you were taking notes,

      19   right?

      20   A.  Yes, I was.

      21   Q.  And when you weren't taking notes the other agent was

      22   taking notes, correct?

      23   A.  That's correct.

      24   Q.  And those notes were taken contemporaneously with the

      25   conversations you were having with Mr. Mohamed?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1   A.  Yes, they were.

       2   Q.  And then after your interview of Mohammed was completed a

       3   few days later those notes were put into another form, a form

       4   of a narrative, correct?

       5   A.  Yes, sir, they were.

       6   Q.  But during the conversation it wasn't given to you in the

       7   same narrative form that was ultimately put down in the

       8   typewritten 302s was it?

       9   A.  Ask me that again, I'm sorry.

      10   Q.  Okay.  While you were having the conversation it wasn't a

      11   linear narrative from day one, the day he left Zanzibar, until

      12   the day you met him, was it?

      13   A.  No, sir.

      14   Q.  You talked about some things here and some things there?

      15   A.  That's correct.

      16   Q.  Now, one of the first things that you talked with him

      17   about was the experience he had in Afghanistan, right?

      18   A.  I'm trying to think when we first broached that subject.

      19   Q.  It's not even that important when it was.  That is a thing

      20   you talked to him about?

      21   A.  Yes, sir.

      22   Q.  And you knew that he went there around 1994 or 1995,

      23   right?

      24   A.  That's what he told me, yes.

      25   Q.  Well, did you have anything to tell you that that wasn't

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                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1   true?

       2   A.  I didn't have anything that necessarily contradicted what

       3   he was telling me.

       4   Q.  Yes.  As a matter of fact, you knew from speaking to

       5   Mr. Hamisi, the fruit juice or juice caf‚ guy, that that's

       6   what he had told him, too, that he went to Afghanistan around

       7   that time, right?

       8   A.  I can't remember specifically what Mr. Hamisi said in

       9   terms of the time frame.  It may have been a broad time frame

      10   that he spoke of.

      11   Q.  Okay.  And when you talked about Afghanistan I want to

      12   make sure I understand, you're saying that he told you went

      13   there to help other Muslims, right?

      14   A.  He went to Afghanistan to train.

      15   Q.  But did he tell you that he was going because he wanted to

      16   help other Muslims?

      17   A.  That he would use that to help other Muslims if necessary

      18   through armed struggle is what he said, yes.

      19   Q.  But did he tell that you one of the reasons he went was

      20   because he wanted to help other Muslims?

      21   A.  Yes, he did.

      22   Q.  And when you were talking about this he talked about the

      23   way Muslims were under attack in Bosnia and Chechyna, right?

      24   A.  He did.

      25   Q.  He told you, right, to fight to help his Muslim brothers,

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1   didn't he?

       2   A.  Yes, he did.

       3   Q.  When he was talking about that he was talking about

       4   fighting in a war defending Muslims, wasn't he?

       5   A.  Yes, he was.

       6   Q.  But he also told you that he never got to go to Bosnia or

       7   Chechyna, right?

       8   A.  That's correct.

       9   Q.  And now, after he was done with his training I think your

      10   testimony is that he came back to Dar es Salaam again, right?

      11   A.  That's correct.

      12   Q.  And during that period of time did he tell you what he

      13   did?  That would be the time after say '94 until '97.

      14   A.  I think we discussed with him the fact, more about where

      15   he lived.  He moved back in with his brother Mohammed.

      16   Q.  And he worked for his brother Mohammed, didn't he?

      17   A.  I think his brother Mohammed had the grocery store.

      18   Q.  A shop keeper?

      19   A.  Uh-huh.

      20   Q.  That's what he told you he did for those two or three

      21   years, right?

      22   A.  I don't know if he specifically said that's what he was

      23   doing.  I know he had done that before.  I don't know that we

      24   asked him that question.

      25   Q.  After a time period he then talked to you a little about

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       1   going to Somalia right?

       2   A.  Yes, he did.

       3   Q.  He told you that was in 1997?

       4   A.  That's correct.

       5   Q.  Now, in 1997 the United States wasn't in Somalia any

       6   longer was it?

       7   A.  Not that I'm aware of.

       8   Q.  And the UN wasn't in Somalia any longer, right?

       9   A.  Not that I'm aware of.

      10   Q.  And he told you that when he went there he never even

      11   fought in Somalia, right?

      12   A.  That's correct.

      13   Q.  As a matter of fact, he told you he had never shot anyone,

      14   he'd never killed anyone, he just went there and once was in a

      15   camp, and the other time there was nothing going on at all,

      16   right?

      17   A.  There are a lot of things in that question.

      18   Q.  I'll ask them one at a time because you're right, there

      19   are a lot of things.  He went to Somalia?

      20   A.  Yes, he did.

      21   Q.  And did he tell you he was ever involved in fighting of

      22   any kind in Somalia?

      23   A.  No.

      24   Q.  He told you one time he was involved in training at a

      25   camp, right?

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       1   A.  He trained, right, trained others.

       2   Q.  And that the other time there was nothing at all going on?

       3   A.  Right.

       4   Q.  And there again he went to help Muslims in Somalia, right?

       5   A.  That's what he said.

       6   Q.  Now, at the time you were talking to him there was an

       7   indictment involving other defendants already here in New

       8   York, wasn't there?

       9   A.  That's correct.

      10   Q.  And you knew that allegations of that indictment were that

      11   al Qaeda was involved in this case, right?

      12   A.  That's correct.

      13   Q.  And you wanted to find out if he knew about or was a

      14   member of al Qaeda, didn't you?

      15   A.  Yes.

      16   Q.  And so you asked him specific questions about al Qaeda

      17   that contained information you'd gotten from other sources,

      18   right?

      19   A.  We asked him if he knew what al Qaeda was.

      20   Q.  Well, you at that point had some idea what it was, didn't

      21   you?

      22   A.  Some idea, yes.

      23   Q.  You had heard about bayat at that point, hadn't you?

      24   A.  Yes, I had.

      25   Q.  And you knew that bayat was a pledge people took to join

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       1   al Qaeda?

       2   A.  Yes, I did.

       3   Q.  And so you were asking him those questions to try and

       4   determine for yourself whether or not he was a member of al

       5   Qaeda, right?

       6   A.  Yes, I was.

       7   Q.  And when you asked him what al Qaeda was he didn't say, I

       8   don't know what you're talking about, right?

       9   A.  No, he did not say that.

      10   Q.  Instead, he defined for you his understanding of what al

      11   Qaeda was, correct?

      12   A.  He told us, yeah, what he thought it was.

      13   Q.  But he said, I didn't even know there was an organization

      14   with that name, right?

      15   A.  That's what he said.

      16   Q.  And you know that al Qaeda has a meaning in Arabic, right?

      17   A.  Yes.

      18   Q.  That it means the base?

      19   A.  That's correct.

      20   Q.  And that was the kind of definition he gave you when you

      21   asked him what al Qaeda was, right?

      22   A.  Well, he said it was a formula or system for what they had

      23   carried out, referencing the bombing.

      24   Q.  But that he had no idea of such an organization?

      25   A.  Right, he just said he didn't know of an organization by

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       1   that name.

       2   Q.  And he also told you he had never even heard of bayat,

       3   right?

       4   A.  That's correct.

       5   Q.  Didn't even know what it was, right?

       6   A.  He'd not heard of it, yes.

       7   Q.  You also were interested in seeing what connection, if

       8   any, he had to Usama Bin Laden, weren't you?

       9   A.  Yes.

      10   Q.  He denied that he knew who Usama Bin Laden was, did he?

      11   A.  No, he didn't deny.

      12   Q.  He told you I know he's the leader of my people?

      13   A.  That's correct.

      14   Q.  But he also said, I've never seen him, right?

      15   A.  That's what he said.

      16   Q.  I don't know what he looks like?

      17   A.  That's what he said.

      18   Q.  I've never heard him speak?

      19   A.  That's what he said.

      20   Q.  And he didn't even know if he issued fatwas or not?

      21   A.  He did say that.

      22   Q.  Now, I want to talk to you some about the information you

      23   got about Magomeni, okay?  Magomeni is the name of a

      24   neighborhood in Dar es Salaam, isn't it?

      25   A.  Yes, it is.

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       1   Q.  What kind of a neighborhood is that?

       2   A.  What do you --

       3   Q.  Is it a rich neighborhood or a poor neighborhood?

       4   A.  It's all, relatively the same.  It didn't look any poorer

       5   than any of the others.

       6   Q.  And you already had information about the house in

       7   Magomeni, didn't you?

       8   A.  In what regard?

       9   Q.  Well, you had spoken to the owner of the house, you or

      10   another agent, had spoken to the owner of the house, right?

      11   A.  If you'll give me a reference a time break what are you

      12   saying.

      13   Q.  You spoke to him on October 5th?

      14   A.  Yes.

      15   Q.  So when I ask if you knew about something already, we're

      16   referring to October 5th when you spoke to him?

      17   A.  Okay.

      18   Q.  So on October 5th you knew quite a bit about that house in

      19   Magomeni, didn't you?

      20   A.  Yes, we did.

      21   Q.  And you knew that by talking to these witnesses we listed

      22   in the beginning of this examination, right?

      23   A.  That's correct.

      24   Q.  And, again, just so it's clear, you didn't tell him any of

      25   those things that you knew.  You asked him questions, right?

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       1   A.  That's right.  We asked him questions.

       2   Q.  And he told you that he lived next door to Abdul Wadih,

       3   right?

       4   A.  That's correct.

       5   Q.  And you knew that was true because you had spoken to Abdul

       6   Wadih?

       7   A.  That's correct.

       8   Q.  So when he told you that, you had some corroboration that

       9   he was telling you the truth, right?

      10   A.  That's correct.

      11   Q.  He told you about a partition that was sort of added or

      12   increased in the side of the house he lived on, right?

      13   A.  That's right, he said he added a partition on the inside.

      14   Q.  And you heard about that, too, hadn't you?

      15   A.  Yes, I had.

      16   Q.  From Abdul Wadih's brother?

      17   A.  Abdul Wadih's brother who?

      18   Q.  The owner of the house?

      19   A.  Oh, his brother-in-law.

      20   Q.  Brother-in-law, I'm sorry.

      21   A.  Yes.

      22   Q.  Right?

      23   A.  Yes.

      24   Q.  He told you that about the families he was living with

      25   there, right?

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       1   A.  Khalfan was living with Hussain and the family, yes.

       2   Q.  That you heard about from Abdul Wadih, right?

       3   A.  Yes, we did.

       4   Q.  You heard about the two children, hadn't you?

       5   A.  That's correct.

       6   Q.  That there was a wife there?

       7   A.  That's right.

       8   Q.  Now, at the time you were speaking with him on October 5th

       9   you'd gotten the results of the swabbings done inside that

      10   house, hadn't you?

      11   A.  That's correct.

      12   Q.  And so you knew that TNT traces had been found inside that

      13   house, right?

      14   A.  Actually, I think the TNT was found on belongings that had

      15   been left behind.  I'm not sure about the swabbings that were

      16   taken of the actual.

      17   Q.  Belongings taken from the house?

      18   A.  The belongings that were left behind by Khalfan, yes.

      19   Q.  And he told that you TNT was stored in that house, right?

      20   A.  Yes, he did.

      21   Q.  And you hadn't told him, we know TNT was stored in that

      22   house, had you?

      23   A.  No, sir.

      24   Q.  He told you things he'd left behind, a fan, a table and

      25   some carpets?

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       1   A.  That's correct.

       2   Q.  And at that point on October 5th you'd already seized

       3   those items, hadn't you, and I don't mean you personally.  I

       4   mean agents had seized those items?

       5   A.  That's correct.

       6   Q.  And those items you just said I think had TNT on them,

       7   right?

       8   A.  Yes, sir, they did.

       9   Q.  He told you that the Suzuki had been used to carry TNT

      10   right?

      11   A.  Yes, he did.

      12   Q.  And that as well turned out to be true, didn't it?

      13   A.  Yes, it's true.

      14   Q.  That is when they tested the Suzuki they found TNT in it?

      15   A.  Yes, they did.

      16   Q.  That is traces of TNT?

      17   A.  Yes, sir.

      18   Q.  All of that information was information he volunteered to

      19   you, right?

      20   A.  In response to questions, yes.

      21   Q.  Well, you had told him you don't have to talk and he

      22   nonetheless told you all of those things?

      23   A.  He did tell us those things.

      24   Q.  But he also told you that he himself had bought the

      25   Suzuki, right?

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       1   A.  Yes, he did.

       2   Q.  And that Suzuki was bought in his real name?

       3   A.  That's correct.

       4   Q.  He didn't use any other name when he bought that Suzuki,

       5   did he?

       6   A.  No, he did not.

       7   Q.  He signed it?

       8   A.  Yes, he did.

       9   Q.  And you new at that point that his fingerprints or palm

      10   prints had been found on the documents, didn't you?

      11   A.  Yes.

      12   Q.  You didn't tell him any of that, right?

      13   A.  Actually, I'm sorry, just to go back.  We didn't know at

      14   that point.

      15   Q.  Didn't know what?

      16   A.  Didn't know that the fingerprint had matched up because we

      17   didn't have his print.  Maybe we did.  I'm sorry, I misspoke.

      18   At that minute we talked to him we did know that information,

      19   yes.

      20   Q.  But you didn't tell him that?  You didn't say, your prints

      21   were found on this document?

      22   A.  No, sir, we did not.

      23   Q.  He just told you, I bought that car, right?

      24   A.  Yes, he did.

      25   Q.  Let's talk a little about Ilala.  There again he gave you

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       1   various facts about the house in Ilala, didn't he?

       2   A.  Yes, he did.

       3   Q.  He told you about a broker who hooked him up, who helped

       4   him buy that house, right?

       5   A.  Yes.

       6   Q.  Not buy, but rent that house?

       7   A.  Right, yes.

       8   Q.  And he told you the person's name was Mohammed?

       9   A.  Mr. Mohamed, yes.

      10   Q.  And you had spoke with Mohammed Chatwandra at that point

      11   hadn't you?

      12   A.  Yeah, that's right.

      13   Q.  So you knew when he told you that that it was true, that

      14   he had indeed bought that house through, rented that house

      15   through that broker?

      16   A.  That's true.

      17   Q.  He described the house for you, right?

      18   A.  He identified a picture of the house, yes.

      19   Q.  And he told you, he looked at a few houses and I wanted

      20   one with high walls, correct?

      21   A.  Yes, he did.

      22   Q.  And that's the same thing that the broker told you, isn't

      23   it?

      24   A.  Told me or someone else, yes.

      25   Q.  When I say told you, I mean told someone in your agency?

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       1   A.  Okay.

       2   Q.  You're taking notes or reading it, either one will do,

       3   okay?

       4   A.  Okay.

       5   Q.  He told you about paying for the house, right, that he

       6   actually handed the money over, but that someone else gave him

       7   the money?

       8   A.  That's correct.

       9   Q.  And that also was verified by the broker, right?

      10   A.  The broker or the owner, yes.

      11   Q.  And there again when the lease was signed for 213 Ilala

      12   what name was that lease signed in?

      13   A.  He signed his name, his own name.

      14   Q.  He signed his name, meaning Khalfan Mohamed signed his

      15   name?

      16   A.  That's correct.

      17   Q.  All right.  Now, I want to talk to you about what you've

      18   told us about getting things together for the bomb, okay?

      19            You got information about various roles that

      20   different people played in assembling that bomb, right?

      21   A.  From him or from others?

      22   Q.  Yes.

      23   A.  From him, yes.

      24   Q.  For example, you got information about who picked up the

      25   tanks and brought them to various places and by the tanks I

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       1   mean the oxygen acetylene tanks?

       2   A.  That's correct.

       3   Q.  You got information about who delivered the TNT?

       4   A.  That's correct.

       5   Q.  And where the truck came from?

       6   A.  Who the truck came from, yeah.

       7   Q.  You got descriptions of people involved, didn't you?

       8   A.  Yes, we did.

       9   Q.  You even got small facts.  For example, he told you that

      10   Ahmed Khalfani road a mountain bike, right?

      11   A.  Yes, he did.

      12   Q.  And you knew from speaking to now his name I don't say

      13   well, but who was the receptionist at the Alnoor Hotel that

      14   that it was true, right?

      15   A.  That's correct.

      16   Q.  And when you asked him, for example, how the truck was

      17   loaded he told you that, didn't he?

      18   A.  Yes, he did.

      19   Q.  And when you asked him about the grinder he didn't say, I

      20   have no idea who that belonged to.  He said, I recognize it,

      21   that's the grinder, right?

      22   A.  That's correct.

      23   Q.  He said TNT was ground up in the area near where the

      24   toilet was, and you knew that there were positive tests for

      25   TNT residue in that area, right?

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       1   A.  Yes, I was.

       2   Q.  And when he talked to you about his role what he did, he

       3   told you he ground up TNT, right?

       4   A.  Yes, he did.

       5   Q.  He told you he helped load it?

       6   A.  That's correct.

       7   Q.  And he told you that he was there because he could speak

       8   Swahili and other people couldn't, right?

       9   A.  He said that he was a local Dar es Salam person, right, he

      10   could speak Swahili and interface with the community.

      11   Q.  Well, for example, he mentioned specifically if someone

      12   came bringing water to the house, he would be able to talk

      13   with him and others might not?

      14   A.  That's correct.

      15   Q.  And he told you that in the end when he was left behind

      16   with just Ahmed he was left behind because Ahmed couldn't

      17   speak any German -- Ahmed the German couldn't speak any

      18   Swahili, and he needed him there to help him out, right?

      19   A.  That was one of the purposes I served, yes.

      20   Q.  So when it came to actually buying the ingredients for the

      21   bomb by which I mean tanks, TNT, fertilizer he didn't do any

      22   of those things, right?

      23   A.  That's correct.

      24   Q.  He didn't buy the detonators, the wires, any of that?

      25   A.  He said other people did that.

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       1   Q.  And when it came to picking the target, he didn't do that,

       2   did he?

       3   A.  Not that I'm aware of.

       4   Q.  And when it came to wiring up the bomb that is the

       5   technical aspect of wiring up the bomb, he didn't do that

       6   either, did he?

       7   A.  He said he did not.

       8   Q.  And he told that two other people actually told him what

       9   to do, right?

      10   A.  Depending on what was going on he described two people

      11   giving him jobs.

      12   Q.  He told you that it wasn't until five days before the

      13   bombing that he even knew himself what the target of the

      14   bombing was, right?

      15   A.  That's what he said, yes.

      16   Q.  But he never denied to you that he knew he was involved in

      17   building a bomb, did he?

      18   A.  He did not.

      19   Q.  And he was aware that the things he said to you would be

      20   used against him in court, wasn't he?

      21   A.  He was told that.

      22   Q.  Now, one of the things you talked about I think was that

      23   people began to leave at some point?

      24   A.  That's correct.

      25   Q.  And some people left ten days before, right?

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       1   A.  That's right.

       2   Q.  Some people left four days before, some three days before?

       3   A.  That's correct.

       4   Q.  And all of those people were leaving so they wouldn't be

       5   in Dar es Salam at the time the bomb actually went off, right?

       6   A.  Presumably so, yes.

       7   Q.  But they asked him to stay, right?

       8   A.  They did.

       9   Q.  He was the guy who had up to that point done fairly menial

      10   jobs in preparing this thing, wasn't he?

      11   A.  I don't know if I would describe them as menial.

      12   Q.  Well, would you describe cleaning up the house as menial?

      13   I don't mean it's menial if you clean your house.  I mean in

      14   this --

      15   A.  I clean own house.

      16   Q.  I clean my house, too, but I mean in this context

      17   considering there is like technicians and people buying you

      18   know TNT and this and that, cleaning up the house would you

      19   consider that one of the lesser jobs?  Maybe menial is a poor

      20   word.

      21   A.  A lesser job than one of the others.

      22   Q.  He'd done lesser jobs than one of the others, right?

      23   A.  Necessary jobs I would say.

      24   Q.  But you would say lesser?

      25   A.  For all of them or for that job?  Cleaning up or getting

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       1   the Suzuki, getting the house?  Are you just talking about the

       2   cleaning up?

       3   Q.  All of them.

       4   A.  All them I wouldn't describe them as menial, no.

       5   Q.  He didn't have the money for any of these things, right?

       6   A.  He said he was given money.

       7   Q.  For the house and the car?

       8   A.  That's correct.

       9   Q.  And people told him what kind of house they wanted, right?

      10   A.  They did.

      11   Q.  They told him to get a car, right?

      12   A.  They asked him to get transportation.

      13   Q.  They told him while the bomb was being built what to do,

      14   right?

      15   A.  I don't know how that specifically if he was told or he

      16   just pitched in and helped, I'm not sure.

      17   Q.  Do you have a copy of his statement up there?

      18   A.  I think I do.

      19   Q.  Take a look at the bottom of page 25, the last paragraph.

      20   Of the 302 dated 2/5 through 2/7/1999.

      21            THE COURT:  3500 number?

      22            MR. KARAS:  Yes, Judge, it is.

      23            MR. COHN:  I think it's 3581.  But I'm not positive

      24   3578-1.  It's 35881-2.

      25   Q.  Have you had a chance to review that?

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       1   A.  Yes, I have.

       2   Q.  So it's fair to say that while the bomb was being built

       3   other people were telling him what to do, right?

       4   A.  That's right.

       5   Q.  And when there came a time for everyone to go he was the

       6   one who was told to stay, right?

       7   A.  He was asked to stay, yes.

       8   Q.  Now, at some point you had a conversation with him about

       9   why this happened and what he was thinking about why it

      10   happened, right?

      11   A.  Yes, I did.

      12   Q.  And he told you that he was trying to defend Muslims in

      13   the best way he knew how, right?

      14   A.  Why he did the bombing?  He said according to the study of

      15   Islam he thought it was his responsibility to kill Americans.

      16   Q.  But he didn't just think it was like for the fun of it.

      17   He thought he was defending Muslims, right?

      18   A.  It's according to, right, his study of Islam.

      19   Q.  And he thought, for example, that it was a terrible insult

      20   to Islam that the United States was in the holy cities of

      21   Islam, didn't he?

      22   A.  He felt that the military, the soldiers being there was

      23   wrong, right.

      24   Q.  He also told you, however, that he thinks there is a

      25   difference between killing soldiers and killing civilians,

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       1   right?

       2   A.  Yes, he did.

       3   Q.  That he understood that if you could it was better to kill

       4   soldiers to make it like a war, right?

       5   A.  He never used the word war, but he said that his target

       6   was the soldiers.  That's who he would go after given the

       7   choice.

       8   Q.  And he also said to you, we're not looking to kill random

       9   civilians.  We're looking to attack the United States

      10   government, didn't he?

      11   A.  That's correct, although he acknowledged that I guess the

      12   bombing of the sort that they had carried out it was likely

      13   that civilians would be killed.

      14   Q.  He recognized that's possible, but he said our goal is to

      15   attack the government.  We're not just going out there to kill

      16   any American we see?

      17   A.  He said, right, US government embassies and US government

      18   buildings.

      19   Q.  Now, you said that he told you that he would have done it

      20   again, that he'd kill Americans, that he helped with bombing

      21   Americans, that if released he would kill them again, right?

      22   A.  That's correct.

      23   Q.  The handwritten statement you took, that statement was

      24   taken as he was speaking, wasn't it?

      25   A.  Right, contemporaneous with the interview.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2898

                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1   Q.  And those statements, those specific statements aren't

       2   found anywhere in that document, are they?

       3   A.  I believe they are in my notes.  Is that what you're

       4   asking?

       5   Q.  Yes.

       6   A.  I believe they are.  I would have to look at my notes and

       7   try to find that for you.

       8   Q.  Here you go.

       9            MR. KARAS:  3581-13.

      10            THE WITNESS:  Okay.

      11            (Pause)

      12            THE COURT:  You want to go on, come back to this?

      13            MR. STERN:  Sure, I'm glad to, Judge.

      14   Q.  Agent, why don't I just go on and then we'll come back to

      15   it, all right?

      16   A.  Okay.

      17   Q.  Although, Judge, I'm going to be done in five minutes,

      18   maybe less.

      19            THE COURT:  Can we finish this witness?

      20            MR. STERN:  Is that all right?

      21   Q.  Why don't you finish looking now?  It won't take long.

      22   A.  I think I have an idea.  I don't have these memorized, so

      23   flipping through to what I recall.  As I recall that

      24   conversation it was at the end of kind of at the end of right

      25   before we had taken a break.  That's what I'm looking for.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2899

                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1            (Pause)

       2            Right.  Now, if you can please repeat the question I

       3   think I'm there.

       4   Q.  Yes.  You said in your testimony that Mr. Mohamed had said

       5   if he hadn't been caught by the police he would have done it

       6   again, specifically stated he would kill Americans and would

       7   help with another bombing against Americans if ever released

       8   from custody would kill Americans and help with another

       9   bombing.

      10   A.  Okay.  Page 77.  Is that?  My handwriting is -- it says

      11   here:  KK stated if released from custody or if never caught

      12   would do it again, would kill Americans and do bomb.

      13   Q.  He said that in response to what question?

      14   A.  We were just asking him if he weren't caught what would

      15   have happened, and if he were caught and released what would

      16   happen.

      17   Q.  Agent, you're aware of all the resources available to the

      18   FBI, aren't you?

      19   A.  I'm aware of a lot of them.

      20   Q.  You're aware, for example, that they have a lab that

      21   evaluates guns, right?

      22   A.  Yes, sir.

      23   Q.  They can, for example, like in this case restore serial

      24   numbers on guns that have been filed off or erased one way or

      25   the other, right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2900

                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1   A.  They probably can recover things like that.

       2   Q.  That was done specifically in this case, wasn't it?

       3   A.  I believe so.

       4   Q.  You're aware that they have a fingerprint lab, right?

       5   A.  Yes, sir.

       6   Q.  You're aware that they have all these explosives labs and

       7   ways of finding one in five billion pieces of traces of TNT,

       8   right?

       9   A.  I don't know if I could quantify that, but, yes, they can

      10   trace explosives.

      11   Q.  All kinds of resources are available to the FBI, are they

      12   not?

      13   A.  There are a number of resources, yes.

      14   Q.  Now, in this case -- well, withdrawn.

      15            You're also aware that on some occasions the FBI tape

      16   records conversations, right?

      17   A.  I have never participated in taped recording of any of

      18   them.

      19   Q.  I'm not asking if you ever.  I'm asking if you're aware

      20   that the FBI does on some occasion?

      21   A.  From my understanding that it would only be under certain

      22   very special circumstance but as a general rule that's not

      23   something we do.

      24   Q.  Well, doesn't the FBI have tape recorders available to

      25   them?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2901

                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1   A.  Yes, they do.

       2   Q.  Do you know, for example, they tape record wiretaps and

       3   I'm not talking about in this case, but they have the ability

       4   to tape record wiretaps, right?

       5   A.  We have that ability, yes.

       6   Q.  And does the FBI have videocameras available to them?

       7   A.  Yes, they.

       8   Q.  Do you know that there are cases where the FBI videotapes

       9   various things, right?

      10   A.  Yes, we do.

      11   Q.  And the FBI has the ability to hire stenographers, don't

      12   they?

      13   A.  I really don't know the answer to that question.

      14   Q.  Well, they had a doctor come to South Africa to check on

      15   him, right?

      16   A.  Yes, they did, yes, we had a doctor there, yes.

      17   Q.  So do you know if they could have had a stenographer come

      18   with you?

      19   A.  I really don't know.

      20   Q.  But the conversation you had with Mr. Mohamed, it wasn't

      21   tape recorded, was it?

      22   A.  No, sir, it was not.

      23   Q.  It wasn't videotaped?

      24   A.  It was not.

      25   Q.  And there was never a stenographer there, right?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2902

                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1   A.  No, sir, there was not.

       2   Q.  So the only record we have of it is your notes and your

       3   recollection, correct?

       4   A.  My contemporaneous notes and those of Special Agent

       5   Forsee, yes.

       6   Q.  And your recollection and these of Agent Forsee, right?

       7   A.  As conducting the interview, right, we took the notes as

       8   we were conducting the interview.

       9   Q.  So, for example, you didn't write down the exact questions

      10   that were asked of Mr. Mohamed, did you?

      11   A.  No, sir.

      12   Q.  We don't hear his tone of voice, do we?

      13   A.  No, sir.

      14   Q.  There is no way to see how he looked when he was answering

      15   these questions, is there?

      16   A.  Does not.

      17            MR. STERN:  I have nothing else.  Thank you.

      18            THE COURT:  Anything further of this witness?

      19            MR. KARAS:  No, your Honor.

      20            THE COURT:  Very well.  Thank you, Agent.

      21            (Witness excused)

      22            THE COURT:  We're adjourned until tomorrow.  Let's

      23   review the week again, more for my benefit than you.

      24            Tomorrow regular day.  Wednesday we don't sit.

      25   Thursday we start and hour later than usual.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2903

                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1            All right.  Thank you have a good evening.

       2            (Jury not present)

       3            THE COURT:  I understand that there is some issue

       4   that has to be resolved for tomorrow.  Why don't we take a

       5   break and then I'll see counsel in the reporter in the robing

       6   room in ten minutes.

       7            (Continued on next page)

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                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2923

                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1            (Pages 2904 to 2922 sealed)

       2            (Adjourned to 10 a.m., Tuesday, March 20, 1001)

       3

       4

       5

       6

       7

       8

       9

      10

      11

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                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
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                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1

       2                        INDEX OF EXAMINATION

       3   Witness                    D      X      RD     RX

       4   NANETTE SCHUMAKER.......2708   2724

       5   ALISA MARTIN FOSTER.....2727

       6   ANDREW PIERCE...........2731   2735

       7   KATHLEEN M. LUNDY.......2736

       8   RICHARD L. LEAS.........2744

       9   RON KELLY...............2752   2757

      10                                  2758

      11   ABIGAIL PERKINS.........2794   2863

      12                        GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS

      13   Exhibit No.                                     Received

      14    1351A through 1351J ........................2712

      15    1352 .......................................2714

      16    1351K and 1351L ............................2715

      17    1355, 1375A through C; 1358, 59, 63, 70, 71, 73 through 78; 1356, 60 to 62, and 64 to 69, 72 and 1364, 1372 and 1379 th2723

      18    1410A through D ............................2728

      19    1410E and F ................................2729

      20    1411A and B ................................2730

      21    1412 through 1419 and 1424 .................2734

      22    1145 .......................................2741

      23    1146 through 1164 and also 1156A, 1162A and 1163A 2743

      24    1461 .......................................2746

      25    1420-LP-1 ..................................2748

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300
                                                                    2925

                                Perkins - cross/Stern

       1    1420-LP-2 ..................................2748

       2    1462 .......................................2755

       3    20 through 25 and 51 .......................2763

       4    26A, 26B and 66 ............................2763

       5    66 and 255 through 258 .....................2764

       6    70, 1010, 1011, 1015 through 1020, and 1012A through 1012L 2765

       7    1052A and B ................................2800

       8    1052C and D ................................2804

       9    1052E and F ................................2807

      10    1050F, 1050T and 1050K .....................2815

      11    1055 .......................................2824

      12    1056 .......................................2825

      13    1057 .......................................2829

      14    1054 .......................................2834

      15    1058 .......................................2844

      16    1061 .......................................2846

      17    1062A and 1062B ............................2847

      18    1059 .......................................2847

      19    1065A and 1065B ............................2849

      20    1064 .......................................2854

      21    1066C ......................................2854

      22    1060 .......................................2856

      23

      24

      25

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300

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